The politics of bathrooms

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YellowKing
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by YellowKing »

Patrick dismissed what he called “predictions of economic doom,” saying states with liberal transgender policies are at the bottom of the economic ladder, while states like North Carolina, which has experienced an economic backlash over a law similar to the one proposed for Texas, have robust economies.
An economy which would have actually been *more* robust with out the law, considering it directly cost several million dollars in lost revenue from events, concerts, and businesses pulling out, not to mention the job gains we lost from those same businesses. Oh, and let's not forget the amount of taxpayer money that is footing the bill for the state to fight the bill in court vs the US government. What an ignorant statement.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Zarathud »

Who is hanging out having "private" intimate moments in the PUBLIC washroom and locker room?

I think these Texas Republicans are worried about their "wide stance" again. How about we ban Republicans from the washroom as there is more evidence of misbehavior based on GOP affiliation?
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by YellowKing »

Well I usually find the people who talk the most about their fear of sexual deviation are usually the sexual deviates. Everyone else doesn't dwell on it.

In other "NC government trying to control my life" news, one of our county commissioners was in the news raising hell because Whoopi Goldberg is coming to town.
Woody White Power White wrote:"Personally, I think having her here is a horrible idea - at a community college, especially," White wrote on his Facebook page. "A school devoted to developing the workforce, and helping fill the labor gaps, provides a venue for someone who just a few weeks ago was moving to Canada in protest to Trumps election? Terrible."
So now our county is wanting to dictate what kind of entertainment comes to town based on their political views, apparently. I'm not a fan of Whoopi whatsoever, but I draw the line at government telling me who can and can't perform in town based on how they voted.

P.S. Whoopi responded and mentioned that she never said she was moving to Canada. But hey, when did truth ever get in the way of a good Republican hissy fit?
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Rip »

YellowKing wrote:Well I usually find the people who talk the most about their fear of sexual deviation are usually the sexual deviates. Everyone else doesn't dwell on it.

In other "NC government trying to control my life" news, one of our county commissioners was in the news raising hell because Whoopi Goldberg is coming to town.
Woody White Power White wrote:"Personally, I think having her here is a horrible idea - at a community college, especially," White wrote on his Facebook page. "A school devoted to developing the workforce, and helping fill the labor gaps, provides a venue for someone who just a few weeks ago was moving to Canada in protest to Trumps election? Terrible."
So now our county is wanting to dictate what kind of entertainment comes to town based on their political views, apparently. I'm not a fan of Whoopi whatsoever, but I draw the line at government telling me who can and can't perform in town based on how they voted.

P.S. Whoopi responded and mentioned that she never said she was moving to Canada. But hey, when did truth ever get in the way of a good Republican hissy fit?
Something tells me if it was Milo they were looking to keep out you wouldn't have so much of an issue with it.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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Another Rip "Hey, look over there!" moment brought to you by the Council for Discussion Distractions.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by YellowKing »

Rip wrote:Something tells me if it was Milo they were looking to keep out you wouldn't have so much of an issue with it.
I don't even know who "Milo" is, so I doubt I'd have much issue with that either. :D
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by geezer »

YellowKing wrote:
Rip wrote:Something tells me if it was Milo they were looking to keep out you wouldn't have so much of an issue with it.
I don't even know who "Milo" is, so I doubt I'd have much issue with that either. :D
Professional troll and token alt-right gay dude. You're not missing anything.

edit: unless Rip means this Milo, in which case, he's much more polite than the Milo to which I believe Rip is referring, so I guess he can come in.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by YellowKing »

geezer wrote:Professional troll and token alt-right gay dude. You're not missing anything.
Ah I see. Even then I really don't care. People can pay money to see whoever they want, no skin off my back.

I think the fundamental issue is that the County Commissioner is arguing that there needs to be some balance between the political affiliations of artists who perform at an entertainment venue (While this venue is located on the campus of a community college, the event and venue is open to the public at large). Which is ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is that the school is not funding the event anyway - Whoopi will be paid through ticket sales, and in the unlikely event that those don't cover her fee, the costs are covered through other show ticket sales. Essentially the government is interfering in what amounts to a private business transaction.

The best thing to come out of this is that some guy posted in the comments section on our local news site: "Woody White is a cocksucker." and no moderators have taken it down yet. :lol:
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by gbasden »

Skinypupy wrote:
Patrick dismissed what he called “predictions of economic doom,” saying states with liberal transgender policies are at the bottom of the economic ladder, while states like North Carolina, which has experienced an economic backlash over a law similar to the one proposed for Texas, have robust economies.
Wait...what? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding this quote and he didn't just cite "liberal trans policies" as a contributing factor to a poor economy.
It just doesn't make sense no matter how hard you parse it. The states with the most liberal transgender policies are mostly the same blue states that subsidize the poor red states with horribly backward ideas like this.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Isgrimnur »

Texas
The author of the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series is declining to attend the Texas Legislature’s celebration of authors event, saying the reason is because of proposed legislation that would prevent transgender people from using bathrooms that match their gender identity.

Rick Riordan, who was born in San Antonio and graduated from the University of Texas at Austin, wrote on Twitter on Friday afternoon that he turned down the Legislature’s invitation on Friday due to Senate Bill 6, which Texas Republicans announced on Thursday. The celebration of authors event is slated for March 8.

“If they want to honor me, they could stop this nonsense,” Riordan said in his tweet.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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NBA All-Star game spotlights LGBT oasis in the South
The city hosting this year's NBA All-Star game has long enjoyed a reputation as a welcoming place for the gay and lesbian community. New Orleans is home to one of the country's oldest gay bars, the gay celebration Southern Decadence draws nearly 200,000 people yearly, and gay and lesbian authors flock here for the Saints and Sinners literary festival.

All of that acceptance will be on full display this weekend in a not-so-subtle statement about equality.

The city of Charlotte was supposed to host the All-Star game Sunday, but the NBA moved it to New Orleans when North Carolina passed "the bathroom bill," which limits protections for lesbian, gay and transgender people. It also requires transgender people to use many public restrooms corresponding with the sex on their birth certificate.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Smoove_B »

Meanwhile, in North Carolina:
I’m not sure we’re hearing anything new from (Cooper) at this point,” Berger said. “The threshold question is, what is the governor’s position on whether men should be allowed to share restrooms, locker rooms and showers with women and girls? .... And until we find out what his position is on this, the idea of trotting out something like this and calling it a compromise seems to be to be just a perpetuation of the current status.”

Lt. Gov. Dan Forest, a Republican, said Cooper’s proposal “will create a state-sanctioned ‘Look But Don’t Touch’ policy in our bathrooms.”

“Heterosexual men will be able to access women’s showers and bathrooms by simply posing as a transgender individual,” he said. “They will be able to watch women and children shower, or shower next to them. As long as the man doesn’t touch them, assault them or film them, no legal protection would be afforded the offended woman or child. Nothing.”
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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What in the name of holy hell is going on in NC?
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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What's going on is that Cooper's hand are tied by a Republican majority. He wants to repeal, but they're not going to budge.

The silver lining of McCrory getting ousted was a short-lived victory.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Max Peck »

Bills targeting transgender bathroom access are floundering
Bills to curtail transgender people's access to public restrooms are pending in about a dozen states, but even in conservative bastions such as Texas and Arkansas they may be doomed by high-powered opposition.

The bills have taken on a new significance this week following the decision by President Donald Trump's administration to revoke an Obama-era federal directive instructing public schools to let transgender students use bathrooms and locker rooms of their chosen gender. Many conservative leaders hailed the assertions by top Trump appointees that the issue was best handled at the state and local level.

Yet at the state level, bills that would limit transgender bathroom access are floundering even though nearly all have surfaced in Republican-controlled legislatures that share common ground politically with Trump. In none of the states with pending bills does passage seem assured; there's been vigorous opposition from business groups and a notable lack of support from several GOP governors.

The chief reason, according to transgender-rights leaders, is the backlash that hit North Carolina after its legislature approved a bill in March 2016 requiring transgender people to use public restrooms that correspond to the sex on their birth certificates. Several major sports organizations shifted events away from North Carolina, and businesses such as PayPal decided not to expand in the state. In November, Republican Pat McCrory, who signed and defended the bill, became the only incumbent governor to lose in the general election.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by YellowKing »

Cooper's current battle in NC is trying to get some sort of compromise legislation passed. They've introduced House Bill 186, which would repeal HB2 but still allow the state to determine policy for public multi-stall restrooms. Cities, however, would be allowed to pass their own anti-discrimination ordinances after a four-month process.

LGBT groups are opposing anything short of full repeal, but hats off to Cooper for at least understanding that something is better than nothing. And there's simply no way HB2 is going to be repealed wholesale while the Republicans control the legislature.

In other NC news, (R) Congressman David Rouzer is skipping a town hall meeting today. I swear I have not seen a more craven bunch of corrupt cowards in my entire life.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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YellowKing wrote:In other NC news, (R) Congressman David Rouzer is skipping a town hall meeting today. I swear I have not seen a more craven bunch of corrupt cowards in my entire life.
I think the most craven I've heard is Rep. Louie Gohmert(R-TX). He pointed at Gabby Giffords getting shot as a reason why it's too dangerous for him to hold a town hall.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 1f4ce4f3e9
As Republican lawmakers across the country have faced raucous, chaotic town halls in recent days, a number have refused to have these events. Some cited safety as a reason, while others said they didn’t want their events “hijacked” by the confrontations seen elsewhere.

Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Tex.), in a statement released this week, blamed his decision not to hold these events in person on “the threat of violence at town hall meetings.” He also pointed to a specific violent event to bolster his case, invoking the 2011 shooting that severely injured Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and killed six others.

The former congresswoman responded Thursday, and she made clear that she does not agree with lawmakers shying away from meeting with members of the public.

“To the politicians who have abandoned their civic obligations, I say this: Have some courage,” Giffords said in a statement. “Face your constituents. Hold town halls.”
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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YellowKing wrote:In other NC news, (R) Congressman David Rouzer is skipping a town hall meeting today. I swear I have not seen a more craven bunch of corrupt cowards in my entire life.
How is any of this different than what the Tea Party was organizing early in Obama's first term?
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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If the legal standard for gender identity is based on self-identification and not an objective scientific standard (e.g., X and Y chromosomes) what prevents men from calling themselves a woman and wanting to attend a woman's college, play on a woman's sports team, or getting a small business loan for owning a female run business?
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Isgrimnur »

Image

Every group will have guidelines. And I'm pretty sure that the bathroom rules being written aren't as loose as, "Billy is calling himself Wilhemina today."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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Moliere wrote:If the legal standard for gender identity is based on self-identification and not an objective scientific standard (e.g., X and Y chromosomes) what prevents men from calling themselves a woman and wanting to attend a woman's college, play on a woman's sports team, or getting a small business loan for owning a female run business?
Backlash from deplorables and the need to present (mannerisms, dress, etc.) as a different gender?

A friend is in the female-to-make transition and he's different now even though I keep thinking of and superimposing the old "her."
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Moliere »

Zarathud wrote:
Moliere wrote:If the legal standard for gender identity is based on self-identification and not an objective scientific standard (e.g., X and Y chromosomes) what prevents men from calling themselves a woman and wanting to attend a woman's college, play on a woman's sports team, or getting a small business loan for owning a female run business?
Backlash from deplorables and the need to present (mannerisms, dress, etc.) as a different gender?

A friend is in the female-to-make transition and he's different now even though I keep thinking of and superimposing the old "her."
I don't see how this answers my question. Is self-identification not the legal standard? And it's not a slippery slope. It's the same question, but a different context (i.e., bathrooms vs. sports team).
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Daveman »

The other day I heard an NPR news update with someone interviewing someone about this issue and their response was something along the lines of "biologically you're either male or female and that should be it". The interviewer then asked him if he'd spoken to any transgender people or heard their arguments and his response, after a small chuckle, was "Oh I don't hang around confused people like that."

Half of me wanted to laugh at the Onion-like absurdity of it, the other half wanted to reach through the speaker and strangle him.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Enough »

Moliere wrote:
Zarathud wrote:
Moliere wrote:If the legal standard for gender identity is based on self-identification and not an objective scientific standard (e.g., X and Y chromosomes) what prevents men from calling themselves a woman and wanting to attend a woman's college, play on a woman's sports team, or getting a small business loan for owning a female run business?
Backlash from deplorables and the need to present (mannerisms, dress, etc.) as a different gender?

A friend is in the female-to-make transition and he's different now even though I keep thinking of and superimposing the old "her."
I don't see how this answers my question. Is self-identification not the legal standard? And it's not a slippery slope. It's the same question, but a different context (i.e., bathrooms vs. sports team).
I'm curious what is your preferred standard?
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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Moliere wrote:
Zarathud wrote:
Moliere wrote:If the legal standard for gender identity is based on self-identification and not an objective scientific standard (e.g., X and Y chromosomes) what prevents men from calling themselves a woman and wanting to attend a woman's college, play on a woman's sports team, or getting a small business loan for owning a female run business?
Backlash from deplorables and the need to present (mannerisms, dress, etc.) as a different gender?

A friend is in the female-to-make transition and he's different now even though I keep thinking of and superimposing the old "her."
I don't see how this answers my question. Is self-identification not the legal standard? And it's not a slippery slope. It's the same question, but a different context (i.e., bathrooms vs. sports team).
I don't know what the "legal standard" is, and I suppose it varies based on the situation (to the extent it exists at all). It should be irrelevant for the issue of bathroom laws, as unless someone is checking the undercarriage of everyone who enters a bathroom (which would present a whole host of other issues, I hope we all can agree), there's no 100% sure way to know the biological gender of someone entering a bathroom.

For sporting events, the "legal standard" is likely different. There are different motivations and rationales for wanting to keep certain sports segregated by biological gender or why an individual might want to enter an event under their non-biological gender (whether it's because they identify the gender or because they're trying to gain a competitive advantage). Likewise for small business loans granted on the basis of gender. The rationale for such loan programs is wildly different from the rationale for permitting someone to use the restroom of the gender they identify with. Needless to say, the vetting possibilities for such scenarios is also wildly different from the vetting possibilities for entering a public restroom.

Bottom line, just because something does or doesn't make sense for bathroom policy likely has little bearing on whether it makes sense for sports teams or the business world. They're simply not comparable.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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ImLawBoy wrote: I don't know what the "legal standard" is, and I suppose it varies based on the situation (to the extent it exists at all). It should be irrelevant for the issue of bathroom laws, as unless someone is checking the undercarriage of everyone who enters a bathroom (which would present a whole host of other issues, I hope we all can agree), there's no 100% sure way to know the biological gender of someone entering a bathroom.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Enough »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Zarathud wrote:
Moliere wrote:If the legal standard for gender identity is based on self-identification and not an objective scientific standard (e.g., X and Y chromosomes) what prevents men from calling themselves a woman and wanting to attend a woman's college, play on a woman's sports team, or getting a small business loan for owning a female run business?
Backlash from deplorables and the need to present (mannerisms, dress, etc.) as a different gender?

A friend is in the female-to-make transition and he's different now even though I keep thinking of and superimposing the old "her."
I don't see how this answers my question. Is self-identification not the legal standard? And it's not a slippery slope. It's the same question, but a different context (i.e., bathrooms vs. sports team).
I don't know what the "legal standard" is, and I suppose it varies based on the situation (to the extent it exists at all). It should be irrelevant for the issue of bathroom laws, as unless someone is checking the undercarriage of everyone who enters a bathroom (which would present a whole host of other issues, I hope we all can agree), there's no 100% sure way to know the biological gender of someone entering a bathroom.

For sporting events, the "legal standard" is likely different. There are different motivations and rationales for wanting to keep certain sports segregated by biological gender or why an individual might want to enter an event under their non-biological gender (whether it's because they identify the gender or because they're trying to gain a competitive advantage). Likewise for small business loans granted on the basis of gender. The rationale for such loan programs is wildly different from the rationale for permitting someone to use the restroom of the gender they identify with. Needless to say, the vetting possibilities for such scenarios is also wildly different from the vetting possibilities for entering a public restroom.

Bottom line, just because something does or doesn't make sense for bathroom policy likely has little bearing on whether it makes sense for sports teams or the business world. They're simply not comparable.
Transathlete tracks the required standards setting by sporting orgs here. Some require surgery but it looks like others require things ranging form just a birth certificate to testing testosterone levels. It sure doesn't seem like a reason to shut down transgender bathroom access.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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Are we suggesting that someone might become transgendered in order to get some sweet gender-based small business loans?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Smoove_B »

RunningMn9 wrote:Are we suggesting that someone might become transgendered in order to get some sweet gender-based small business loans?
Even better - they're going to become transgendered to get a low-interest small business loan, rent an office and then when parents with children stop by and need to use the bathroom, it's a molestation buffet.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Fwiw, you can look at however many undercarriages you like, you still won't know those people's gender. You might know their current biological sex. But the growing scientific view is that gender is more like a spectrum vs the binary of sex. Even biologically.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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RunningMn9 wrote:Are we suggesting that someone might become transgendered in order to get some sweet gender-based small business loans?
I think what Moliere is suggesting is that if that the only rule we have for gender identity is what a person claims to be, then a man could claim to be a woman just to get the loan, regardless of whether he truly identifies as a woman. Of course, this requires such a simplistic, superficial understanding of gender identity, small business loans, and bathroom politics that it's hardly worth commenting on, but I was bored on a Friday afternoon, so I commented on it anyway.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by ImLawBoy »

Combustible Lemur wrote:Fwiw, you can look at however many undercarriages you like, you still won't know those people's gender. You might know their current biological sex. But the growing scientific view is that gender is more like a spectrum vs the binary of sex. Even biologically.
not neat and tidy
I was hesitant to comment in this thread, because I figured that no matter how carefully I tried to use terminology, I might get something wrong, and someone would call me out on it.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Combustible Lemur »

ImLawBoy wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:Fwiw, you can look at however many undercarriages you like, you still won't know those people's gender. You might know their current biological sex. But the growing scientific view is that gender is more like a spectrum vs the binary of sex. Even biologically.
not neat and tidy
I was hesitant to comment in this thread, because I figured that no matter how carefully I tried to use terminology, I might get something wrong, and someone would call me out on it.
I don't want to call out anybody who is earnestly trying to learn the brave new open world. This is all new to many people. But I do feel it's important to be very clear about basic nomenclature.

I've had several students who are at various points of transgender including post-op. The idea that some self righteous old man is using rapists as cover to hurt children who just want to be themselves makes me fucking stabby.

Point of reference, I had to call the police and make special arrangements because a student was scared for himself and his mother for defending him from his father just this semester.

Edited for awkward sentence structure
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Enough »

Topical,
A 17-year-old transgender boy moved within one match of winning a Texas state girls wrestling title.

Mack Beggs pinned Kailyn Clay to improve to 56-0, putting him in Saturday afternoon's championship match.

Beggs is a junior from Euless Trinity in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. His family has said he would rather be wrestling boys. Some girls and their advocates agree.

They say the testosterone Beggs has been taking while transitioning from female to male has made him too strong to wrestle fairly against girls. But state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificates.

So Beggs beat Taylor Latham and Mya Engert handily on Friday before his victory over Clay that sent him to the finals.
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Defiant
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

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Paingod
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Paingod »

Enough wrote:They say the testosterone Beggs has been taking while transitioning from female to male has made him too strong to wrestle fairly against girls. But state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificates.
My personal take on this is a matter of character. I'd personally prefer to abstain from an activity while fighting to change the rules instead of having a clear advantage over my competition and running a 56-win streak like I actually earned it. I suppose the end result may be a more dramatic and rapid shift in policy, but at the expense of standing on top of a whole year's worth of people who were working their asses off and losing.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Isgrimnur »

Crappy article headline buries the important parts:
In a one-sentence order, the Supreme Court vacated an appeal’s court decision in favor of a transgender boy, Gavin Grimm, and sent the case back for further consideration in light of the new guidance from the Trump administration.
...
The Department of Education said in 2015 that schools “generally must treat transgender students consistent with their gender identity.” Last year, the department went further, saying that schools could lose federal money if they discriminated against transgender students. The Trump administration withdrew that guidance last month.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by El Guapo »

Paingod wrote:
Enough wrote:They say the testosterone Beggs has been taking while transitioning from female to male has made him too strong to wrestle fairly against girls. But state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificates.
My personal take on this is a matter of character. I'd personally prefer to abstain from an activity while fighting to change the rules instead of having a clear advantage over my competition and running a 56-win streak like I actually earned it. I suppose the end result may be a more dramatic and rapid shift in policy, but at the expense of standing on top of a whole year's worth of people who were working their asses off and losing.
I do think there's some value in him continuing to wrestle against the girls if that's what the state is going to force him to do. First, it clearly highlights the absurd results that can come from enforcing birth certificate gender. Second, it may impact the merits of his lawsuit (which I think is ongoing?) - if he stopped wrestling the state would probably argue that there was no harm because he wasn't actively wrestling.

I would feel a little bad if I were him about an unfair advantage, but that's because of what the state is doing.
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by em2nought »

Once again, I'd like to thank Target for the generous discount program their attempted social engineering has brought my way. I am enjoying the deep discounts on video, music, clothing, and now luggage. :mrgreen:
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Re: The politics of bathrooms

Post by Skinypupy »

em2nought wrote:Once again, I'd like to thank Target for the generous discount program their attempted social engineering has brought my way. I am enjoying the deep discounts on video, music, clothing, and now luggage. :mrgreen:
Can someone translate this for me? I don't speak fluent enough Trump to understand.
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