Go Bernie!

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coopasonic
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by coopasonic »

Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:49 am Or Pennsylvania. No frackin’ way.
Laugh or cry. I just don't know any more.
Daehawk wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:55 am So could we see a Bernie and Warren ticket or maybe a Bernie and Butti...buttei...Buttygiggy ticket?
There's a reason we use Pete or Mayor Pete.

There's a reason to vote for Trump, we can all spell his last name... well except for him, but I am too lazy to find the tweet.

Also /s

Finally, this is a terrible post to be top of page so I feel like I should mention Bernie. There, I mentioned him.
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Combustible Lemur
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Kurth wrote:Or Pennsylvania. No frackin’ way.
This is the one that scares me.
Universal Healthcare: most Americans agree that Healthcare should be a right they just know we have to pay for it. Social justice: people are generally for it. Infrastructure: easy to sell. Publically funded higher education: bougie but normal politician sales pitch.
Socialist tendencies: bigger hurdle but Bernie's base doesn't see it as the boogie- man it once was. My generation and younger, associate Castro, Chavez, Maduro, Stalin more with autorianism than with ooga booga socialism which is seen in more the European style. From my understanding, generally speaking, African Americans and Latino people aren't overly fond of American capitalism for its Governmental theory, just its economic opportunity.
Which brings up fracking. Texas loves fracking. I would presume most states in which it occurs love the economic stability, boom, and employment that fracking has to offer. A politician who was promoting pushing to a transition with new jobs and a decades long wind down of fracking would be moderately received. An angry New England liberal declaring he's going to blow off our economic leg with a shotgun, THEN fix it with a not ready day one series of future prospects and new fangled technologies? F that. He will lose on that issue alone.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

Yeah, the fracking thing is stupid. Natural gas isn't going away in Bernie's lifetime so why propose such an antagonistic policy that will lose you votes. The anti-fracking thing is just stupid. Yes, we need to move to renewables but natural gas is better than coal and we're not going to get to all renewables any time soon.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah that's my biggest problem with Bernie. Instead of steering the nation gently back towards the left lane, we're just going to wrench the steering wheel and probably crash into a tree. I mind it less with Warren because I feel like she could easily shift towards the center when necessary and compromise. Bernie is going to be my way or the highway.

The violent tug of war we're currently in between the two party extremes really scares me. I feel like we need someone to reset, undo as much of Trump's damage as possible, then look at pushing the progressive agenda in four years.

I'll vote Bernie over Trump, of course. And I'm open minded about his chances. But damn - I've never seen "I'm going to raise taxes on the middle class" win an election.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth »

On the fracking issue and PA, I already referenced this I think, but I couldn’t find it when searching just now:

The Swing Issue That Could Win a Swing State: Will fracking determine who wins Pennsylvania in the presidential election?
Spoiler:
The answer is, yes, and if Bernie is the nominee, it will lead to 4 more years of Trump.
We cannot nominate Bernie Sanders.
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Dogstar
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Dogstar »

Last edited by Dogstar on Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Grifman
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 am Yeah that's my biggest problem with Bernie. Instead of steering the nation gently back towards the left lane, we're just going to wrench the steering wheel and probably crash into a tree. I mind it less with Warren because I feel like she could easily shift towards the center when necessary and compromise. Bernie is going to be my way or the highway.

The violent tug of war we're currently in between the two party extremes really scares me. I feel like we need someone to reset, undo as much of Trump's damage as possible, then look at pushing the progressive agenda in four years.

I'll vote Bernie over Trump, of course. And I'm open minded about his chances. But damn - I've never seen "I'm going to raise taxes on the middle class" win an election.
This is the error, in my opinion and many others that I am seeing, the "my way or the highway" brand of progressivism. They believe that there is no middle to appeal to, that the election will purely hinge on turn out, that compromise is needed needed, that you need to be seen as a no compromise true believer to push turn out. I believe this is a grave mistake.

It is also interesting that the Trump campaign sees Bernie as the preferred opponent, and still fears Biden. In Nevada they were running ads attacking Biden, and doing other stuff to support Bernie. It's looking like we will find out in November and I am afraid of the result.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Isgrimnur »

Dogstar wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:20 pm Item 3
The Hill
Sanders tweeted that he would not attend the conference due to AIPAC's connection to "leaders who express bigotry and oppose basic Palestinian rights," an apparent reference to the current administration of Israel headed by Benjamin Netanyahu, whom Sanders has repeatedly criticized in the past.

"The Israeli people have the right to live in peace and security. So do the Palestinian people. I remain concerned about the platform AIPAC provides for leaders who express bigotry and oppose basic Palestinian rights. For that reason I will not attend their conference," he wrote.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Kurth
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth »

That’s cool. It’s not like there are any single issue voters when it comes down to U.S. policy regarding Israel. And it’s not like any of those hypothetical single issue voters form a reliable voting block in a swing state in the south.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Drazzil wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:38 am
Grifman wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:49 pm
Drazzil wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:32 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm
Drazzil wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:28 pm I'm less concerned with "healing" then justice at this point. If scum goes unpunished, they are still scum. Barack Obama tried to be the "unity" president and look where it got him. He appeased his way to be a do nothing president. Healing doesent work. It didn't work in South Africa, didn't work with Obama and wont work here.
Um, it did work in South Africa. The Truth and Reconciliation Commissions are how they came out of Apartheid without a backlash bloodbath and civil war. This is the only thing that has made justice possible.

Draz, you're prone to extremes, and you need to curtail that shit. Extremes thwart progress, and at their worst they get a whole lot of people killed and then provoke an opposite reaction anyway.
It didn't work in South Africa. The blacks are still an underclass. The whites still own everything. Now things are even worse because the systemic problems are worse. Violence is an every day thing.
Read again what he said what the result of the commission was. The purpose of the commission wasn't to solve SA's inequality problems.
All problems spring from inequality. All of them. Without equality ( or a fair sembelence of it), then you dont have a country.

This is the last I will speak of this here. I will not change your mind, you will not change my mind. I thank god I'm not the one in power. Sorry to drag off topic.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Skinypupy »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 am Yeah that's my biggest problem with Bernie. Instead of steering the nation gently back towards the left lane, we're just going to wrench the steering wheel and probably crash into a tree. I mind it less with Warren because I feel like she could easily shift towards the center when necessary and compromise. Bernie is going to be my way or the highway.

The violent tug of war we're currently in between the two party extremes really scares me. I feel like we need someone to reset, undo as much of Trump's damage as possible, then look at pushing the progressive agenda in four years.

I'll vote Bernie over Trump, of course. And I'm open minded about his chances. But damn - I've never seen "I'm going to raise taxes on the middle class" win an election.
This. So damn much this.

Repairing the damage and putting the US back into some sense of normalcy has to be job one, regardless of the candidate. I'm not against many of Bernie's ideas (I'm not entirely for them either, mind), but none of them matter if we don't even have a functioning system of governance.

Wildly lurching from one extreme to the other with zero room to compromise would only lead to further disaster.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant »



Jews have voted overwhelmingly Democratic for decades & overwhelmingly against Trump. Many are furious at Sanders—who appears on Fox & spoke at Liberty University on Rosh Hashana—for blacklisting AIPAC. And they'll vote for him anyway over Trump because they know what's at stake.

Needless to say, this reflects well on Jewish voters, and poorly on Bernie, who has decided a diverse gathering of pro-Israel Jews (many of whom walked out when Trump spoke after Hillary in 2016) is somehow less kosher and more bigoted than Fox News and Jerry Falwell's fiefdom.

The sad irony of this is that Bernie's first honest answer on AIPAC was the right one: he said he'd be willing to speak there, but would deliver the same message on Israel & Palestinian rights that he does everywhere else. That's what leadership is. Then he folded under pressure.

Anyway, Bernie should trust his instincts and go to AIPAC and give the exact same Israel/Palestine speech he gives everywhere, just as he goes on Fox and to Falwell's university and brings his message there. It's his strength, it's how you lead & could start a real conversation.

For the record, this is what Bernie said about speaking at AIPAC earlier this month. He got it right the first time.
“Well if I do go — I don’t think I am, I don’t think it’s going to be on my schedule — but you know, I have no objection to going, but the question is what I say when I get there. That’s the point. And what I will say is something that I have said for years, and I speak as somebody who’s Jewish, and that is we need a foreign policy in this country, we need a Mideast policy which absolutely protects the integrity and the independence and safety of Israel, but also understands that the Palestinian people have needs and they have got to be treated with respect and dignity. And that is not the case right now. So that is my view. We will treat all people with respect and dignity.”
⬇️ Head of the largest American Jewish denomination, and a scathing critic of Bibi/Trump/annexation/the Israeli right. These people are not Bernie's enemies, and it makes no sense to lump them in with them.
Rabbi Rick Jacobs wrote:
If Sen. Bernie Sanders wants to lead the Democratic Party and the nation, I hope he can speak to, engage with, and even debate everyone. Don’t skip AIPAC; speak to—and with—participants at AIPAC.
Separately, this is an excellent example of the Sanders campaign's election theory: He has some popular policies, but others that are not & normally could not win a general election. But with a uniquely toxic opponent like Trump, he thinks he'll get people to vote for him anyway.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth »

Defiant wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:34 pm

Jews have voted overwhelmingly Democratic for decades & overwhelmingly against Trump. Many are furious at Sanders—who appears on Fox & spoke at Liberty University on Rosh Hashana—for blacklisting AIPAC. And they'll vote for him anyway over Trump because they know what's at stake.

Needless to say, this reflects well on Jewish voters, and poorly on Bernie, who has decided a diverse gathering of pro-Israel Jews (many of whom walked out when Trump spoke after Hillary in 2016) is somehow less kosher and more bigoted than Fox News and Jerry Falwell's fiefdom.

The sad irony of this is that Bernie's first honest answer on AIPAC was the right one: he said he'd be willing to speak there, but would deliver the same message on Israel & Palestinian rights that he does everywhere else. That's what leadership is. Then he folded under pressure.

Anyway, Bernie should trust his instincts and go to AIPAC and give the exact same Israel/Palestine speech he gives everywhere, just as he goes on Fox and to Falwell's university and brings his message there. It's his strength, it's how you lead & could start a real conversation.

For the record, this is what Bernie said about speaking at AIPAC earlier this month. He got it right the first time.
“Well if I do go — I don’t think I am, I don’t think it’s going to be on my schedule — but you know, I have no objection to going, but the question is what I say when I get there. That’s the point. And what I will say is something that I have said for years, and I speak as somebody who’s Jewish, and that is we need a foreign policy in this country, we need a Mideast policy which absolutely protects the integrity and the independence and safety of Israel, but also understands that the Palestinian people have needs and they have got to be treated with respect and dignity. And that is not the case right now. So that is my view. We will treat all people with respect and dignity.”
⬇️ Head of the largest American Jewish denomination, and a scathing critic of Bibi/Trump/annexation/the Israeli right. These people are not Bernie's enemies, and it makes no sense to lump them in with them.
Rabbi Rick Jacobs wrote:
If Sen. Bernie Sanders wants to lead the Democratic Party and the nation, I hope he can speak to, engage with, and even debate everyone. Don’t skip AIPAC; speak to—and with—participants at AIPAC.
Separately, this is an excellent example of the Sanders campaign's election theory: He has some popular policies, but others that are not & normally could not win a general election. But with a uniquely toxic opponent like Trump, he thinks he'll get people to vote for him anyway.
Hey, what's the worry? Why the angst from the "moderates"? Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar are on board. We should be all set.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by malchior »

Surrendering Florida to Trump at the outset is a bold strategy.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant »

You know, given that the conference overlaps Super Tuesday, he could have easily used that as his reason for not going without raising any eyebrows.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth »

Defiant wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:51 pm You know, given that the conference overlaps Super Tuesday, he could have easily used that as his reason for not going without raising any eyebrows.
Get with the program: This is a political Revolution. Raising eyebrows is a feature, not a bug.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by gbasden »

coopasonic wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:02 am
Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:49 am Or Pennsylvania. No frackin’ way.
Laugh or cry. I just don't know any more.
Daehawk wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:55 am So could we see a Bernie and Warren ticket or maybe a Bernie and Butti...buttei...Buttygiggy ticket?
There's a reason we use Pete or Mayor Pete.

There's a reason to vote for Trump, we can all spell his last name... well except for him, but I am too lazy to find the tweet.

Also /s

Finally, this is a terrible post to be top of page so I feel like I should mention Bernie. There, I mentioned him.
It takes 2 seconds to do a search for his name. It's not challenging.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Drazzil »

Kurth wrote:
Defiant wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:51 pm You know, given that the conference overlaps Super Tuesday, he could have easily used that as his reason for not going without raising any eyebrows.
Get with the program: This is a political Revolution. Raising eyebrows is a feature, not a bug.
:lol:
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by malchior »

:lol:

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Dogstar
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Dogstar »

Factually correct and politically tone-deaf again. I hope someone asks him tonight about the millions that died during the Cultural Revolution and the millions of Muslims in camps. It would be great if he could try some message discipline and focus on improving literacy, poverty rates, etc. without talking about authoritarian regimes. :grund: :grund:

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by noxiousdog »

Dogstar wrote:Factually correct and politically tone-deaf again. I hope someone asks him tonight about the millions that died during the Cultural Revolution and the millions of Muslims in camps. It would be great if he could try some message discipline and focus on improving literacy, poverty rates, etc. without talking about authoritarian regimes. :grund: :grund:

I think he's just that far left. He's operating the communist playbook:
Step 1: down with the property owners!
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Utopia

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Drazzil »

Dogstar wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:22 pm Factually correct and politically tone-deaf again. I hope someone asks him tonight about the millions that died during the Cultural Revolution and the millions of Muslims in camps. It would be great if he could try some message discipline and focus on improving literacy, poverty rates, etc. without talking about authoritarian regimes. :grund: :grund:

The more Bernie opens his mouth off script the more ammunition he gives to the haters and the more I think Liz Warren should have a shot.

Jeez Bernie STFU about all the positive things blood soaked dicators have done. It's like Trump saying there are "good people" on "both sides"

There. I've said something bad about Bernie. I'm not a bro.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Holman »

Sobering quantitative news on Bernie's electability.

40,000-person survey suggests that Sanders would shift large numbers of swing voters towards Trump. His path to victory would require a 30% increase in the youth vote vs 2016 (something that's very very unlikely).
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Defiant »

Image
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Jaymann »

:lol:
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by noxiousdog »

Holman wrote:Sobering quantitative news on Bernie's electability.

40,000-person survey suggests that Sanders would shift large numbers of swing voters towards Trump. His path to victory would require a 30% increase in the youth vote vs 2016 (something that's very very unlikely).
And I bet it's worse in swing states.

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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Grifman »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:57 pm
Holman wrote:Sobering quantitative news on Bernie's electability.

40,000-person survey suggests that Sanders would shift large numbers of swing voters towards Trump. His path to victory would require a 30% increase in the youth vote vs 2016 (something that's very very unlikely).
And I bet it's worse in swing states.

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Yeah, even if Bernie can increase turnout, all it's likely to do is run up vote totals in California, New York, etc. It will do very little for his chances in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, etc. I really believe he is going to be an electoral disaster the more he talks. It's great to be a true believer, but you've got to have some political common sense too.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by rittchard »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 pm Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
It seems just like Trump none of it hurts his support. Even that creepy rape/bondage stuff? I don't get it.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by rittchard »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 pm Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
It seems just like Trump none of it hurts his support. Even that creepy rape/bondage stuff? I don't get it.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kraken »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 pm Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
Well, he IS winning, so....
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by $iljanus »

Kraken wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:49 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 pm Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
Well, he IS winning, so....
But are we winning...?
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Kurth »

$iljanus wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:23 pm
Kraken wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:49 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 pm Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
Well, he IS winning, so....
But are we winning...?
And this is all a surprise to who?

Bernie isn’t exactly coy about his positions. But let’s just keep on pretending a socialist who isn’t shy about his praise for Cuba and China and refuses to attend AIPAC is electable.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Azza »

Holman wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:19 pm Sobering quantitative news on Bernie's electability.

40,000-person survey suggests that Sanders would shift large numbers of swing voters towards Trump. His path to victory would require a 30% increase in the youth vote vs 2016 (something that's very very unlikely).
This suggest Michael Bloomberg or Pete would fare better than Sanders in the general. One would have to be completely ensconced in an echo chamber removed from the black community to think either of those two men with their very specific history won't catalyze a massive depression of voters of color.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by em2nought »

The millionaire communist and the faux Indian, is that all you've got? :mrgreen:
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Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Lagom Lite »

Holman wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:19 pm Sobering quantitative news on Bernie's electability.

40,000-person survey suggests that Sanders would shift large numbers of swing voters towards Trump. His path to victory would require a 30% increase in the youth vote vs 2016 (something that's very very unlikely).

Not 30%, 11% compared to 2016 (when Hillary ran). From 43,4% to 54,4%, according to the very link you posted, and only 6% from the Obama election in 2008 (which was at 48,4%). I don't think it's at all unlikely.

The desperation from corporate media is palpable. They're throwing everything they've got to see what sticks. The recent red-baiting is particularly entertaining (CASTRO!!!). :)
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Lagom Lite »

em2nought wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:35 am The millionaire communist and the faux Indian, is that all you've got? :mrgreen:
Enlarge Image
:)

Doubt Warren will be VP at this point. But get out as much old McCarthy stickers as you can, your boy Trump is gonna need them.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Lagom Lite »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:06 pm Where are the campaign advisors to rein him in? Is it really such an echo chamber that they all think this is a winning strategy?
Obama said the same thing about Cuba. He won. Maybe voters aren't that impressed by the DICTATORS! argument.
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Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Lagom Lite »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:28 pm
Dogstar wrote:Factually correct and politically tone-deaf again. I hope someone asks him tonight about the millions that died during the Cultural Revolution and the millions of Muslims in camps. It would be great if he could try some message discipline and focus on improving literacy, poverty rates, etc. without talking about authoritarian regimes. :grund: :grund:

I think he's just that far left. He's operating the communist playbook:
Step 1: down with the property owners!
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Utopia

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Talk about disingenuous. Sanders' platform is literally trying to copy elements of the welfare state model of successful European states (France, Germany, UK, Nordic countries).

I guess this is news to you, but the rhetoric of Sanders perfectly matches the rhetoric of social democratic movements in Europe at the time when these basic rights were instituted here.

But keep trying. Maybe some of these disgusting comparisons to communist dictatorships will fool some voters.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?


"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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Lagom Lite
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Go Bernie!

Post by Lagom Lite »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 am Yeah that's my biggest problem with Bernie. Instead of steering the nation gently back towards the left lane, we're just going to wrench the steering wheel and probably crash into a tree. I mind it less with Warren because I feel like she could easily shift towards the center when necessary and compromise. Bernie is going to be my way or the highway.

The violent tug of war we're currently in between the two party extremes really scares me. I feel like we need someone to reset, undo as much of Trump's damage as possible, then look at pushing the progressive agenda in four years.

I'll vote Bernie over Trump, of course. And I'm open minded about his chances. But damn - I've never seen "I'm going to raise taxes on the middle class" win an election.
Bernie is a centrist from my perspective. If you think he's extreme left, you haven't met many extreme lefties.
But you've seen who's in heaven
Is there anyone in hell?


"Lagom you are a smooth tongued devil, and an opportunistic monster" - OOWW Game Club
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