Speaking of smoking.....

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noxiousdog
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Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

FDA bans all 'flavored' cigarettes. FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!!!

Anyone selling cigarettes flavored with cloves, fruit – anything but menthol – is a criminal under a ban that marks the first assault in a new war on tobacco.

The law, enacted this summer and kicking in today, directs the FDA to crack down on candy and fruit-flavored cigarettes that public health officials say turn children into life-long nicotine addicts.

That bodes well for for the drug war.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by tjg_marantz »

Are they fucking with my Captain Black Sweets or is this just cigarettes?
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by silverjon »

It's the FDA. I'm sure smokes in Canadia will be the same as they ever were.

Why is menthol ok? Because they're for the ladies?
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Little Raven »

silverjon wrote:Why is menthol ok? Because they're for the ladies?
Because they're popular. Banning menthol would bring unacceptable political backlash.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by szgany »

I wonder how this will affect my E-cigarette smoking? I currently have sitting next to me Banana Nut, Butterscotch and Root Beer flavored juices. Of course these things are made with food flavoring, and I doubt the FDA is going to shut down LorAnn oils and take vegetable glycerin off of the market.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Kraken »

szgany wrote:E-cigarette smoking?
Wait. What?
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Isgrimnur »

Ironrod wrote:
szgany wrote:E-cigarette smoking?
Wait. What?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by szgany »

Don't tell me that, with all the FDA hub-bub surrounding them, you fellows haven't heard of Electronic Cigarettes. Basically, the E-cig is a device that is about the length of a cigarette (some are smaller/larger), which consists of a battery, atomizer and a tip which is filled with a poly-fiber material that holds liquid. The tip fits into the atomizer (which in turn screws into the battery), where the poly-fiber makes contact with an element inside, which heats up and atomizes the liquid. and you inhale the vapor into your lungs, the way you would a normal cigarette.

The liquids themselves vary somewhat in what is used to make them. The majority break down to liquid nicotine of varying degrees (from 0 to 36mg), flavorings and either vegetable glycerin or polyethylene glycol.

The plus side is no cancer (potentially), no carcinogens (the FDA is arguing against this, since one of the pre-filled tips/cartridges was supposedly tested positive for 1 carcinogen, although that is still up in the air), a ton of flavors, and it technically isn't illegal to smoke them in most places. I work in a city building and we are allowed to smoke them inside. In fact, this thing rarely leave my mouth throughout the day.

Downside. They can be somewhat messy, as the juice can leak a bit through the tip when you draw on it, and the quality control is non-existant. The atomizers can burn out after the first hit, or they can last months (my current one has been going strong for three months). The batteries are the same way, some seem to hold a charge well for months, other stop holding one after a few days.

Price wise the cost is minimal compared to actual smoking. A starter DSE-901 kit will run about $40, and most juice is about $20 for 30ml. I tend to mix my own juices by buying unflavored VG ($2 per 30ml), flavorings ($4 bucks a pop, a little bit of this stuff goes a long way, as you only need a couple of drops when mixing in small doses), and nicotine ($15-20 per 30ml) if you decide to use it (I mix batches with and without it, depending on my mood). Basically, for the price of one carton of smokes, you can get a kit that can potentially last for a month or two, depending on your luck getting a good device and your smoking habits.

You can get more information on the devices and read what the users of them are saying at E-Cigarette Forum.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Eightball »

The FDA is going crazy. It's a totally toxic environment over there at the moment; they're writing tons of warning letters to regulated companies, and most are written in a totally snotty tone. It's not very pleasant at the moment in the industry.
szgany wrote:I wonder how this will affect my E-cigarette smoking? I currently have sitting next to me Banana Nut, Butterscotch and Root Beer flavored juices. Of course these things are made with food flavoring, and I doubt the FDA is going to shut down LorAnn oils and take vegetable glycerin off of the market.
FDA is going apeshit over these things lately.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Kraken »

I hear that electrical banana is gonna be a sudden craze. You kids can smoke your banana peels, I'm sticking with cigars.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Smoove_B »

As long as I can still smoke Smarties no one will get hurt.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Kraken »

Smoove_B wrote:As long as I can still smoke Smarties no one will get hurt.
When I saw the YouTube page headline I misread it as "Ron Jeremy". Despite being wary of this "Smartie smoking" in the first place, I didn't click away.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by pengo »

Its criminal that the only flavoured cigarettes are menthol.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by LordMortis »

Ironrod wrote:You kids can smoke your banana peels, I'm sticking with cigars.
Mello. It's so mello
Mello. It's so mello
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
Mello. It's so mello
Mello. It's too mello
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by LordMortis »

szgany wrote:Don't tell me that, with all the FDA hub-bub surrounding them, you fellows haven't heard of Electronic Cigarettes. Basically, the E-cig is a device that is about the length of a cigarette (some are smaller/larger), which consists of a battery, atomizer and a tip which is filled with a poly-fiber material that holds liquid. The tip fits into the atomizer (which in turn screws into the battery), where the poly-fiber makes contact with an element inside, which heats up and atomizes the liquid. and you inhale the vapor into your lungs, the way you would a normal cigarette.

The liquids themselves vary somewhat in what is used to make them. The majority break down to liquid nicotine of varying degrees (from 0 to 36mg), flavorings and either vegetable glycerin or polyethylene glycol.

The plus side is no cancer (potentially), no carcinogens (the FDA is arguing against this, since one of the pre-filled tips/cartridges was supposedly tested positive for 1 carcinogen, although that is still up in the air), a ton of flavors, and it technically isn't illegal to smoke them in most places. I work in a city building and we are allowed to smoke them inside. In fact, this thing rarely leave my mouth throughout the day.

Downside. They can be somewhat messy, as the juice can leak a bit through the tip when you draw on it, and the quality control is non-existant. The atomizers can burn out after the first hit, or they can last months (my current one has been going strong for three months). The batteries are the same way, some seem to hold a charge well for months, other stop holding one after a few days.

Price wise the cost is minimal compared to actual smoking. A starter DSE-901 kit will run about $40, and most juice is about $20 for 30ml. I tend to mix my own juices by buying unflavored VG ($2 per 30ml), flavorings ($4 bucks a pop, a little bit of this stuff goes a long way, as you only need a couple of drops when mixing in small doses), and nicotine ($15-20 per 30ml) if you decide to use it (I mix batches with and without it, depending on my mood). Basically, for the price of one carton of smokes, you can get a kit that can potentially last for a month or two, depending on your luck getting a good device and your smoking habits.

You can get more information on the devices and read what the users of them are saying at E-Cigarette Forum.
I wonder how long it will be until they are used to nebulize more questionable chemicals and they are considered drug paraphernalia.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by szgany »

I had the same conversation with a co-worker a few weeks ago. He believes that is the impetus behind the FDA drive to get rid of these things. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the device was already being used for that purpose, although I have yet to read about anyone doing so.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by pengo »

szgany wrote:I had the same conversation with a co-worker a few weeks ago. He believes that is the impetus behind the FDA drive to get rid of these things. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the device was already being used for that purpose, although I have yet to read about anyone doing so.
The hypocrosiy really.. sure its possible to use them for illegal drugs, but then I can use my coke can to hide my booze. So should we be banning soft drink cans too? Tho I guess booze is "legal"... :grund: Fucking nanny state.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Isgrimnur »

Politico
The Food and Drug Administration said Thursday that it will propose a policy to ban menthol cigarettes and all flavored cigars within a year.

The agency released the plan in response to a court-ordered deadline. It has long faced calls to act on menthol cigarettes, which are disproportionately smoked by Black Americans and teens just starting to use tobacco.
...
Momentum for banning menthol cigarettes has grown over the past several years, with lawmakers and public health groups pointing to decades of targeted marketing toward Black communities.

“Banning menthol — the last allowable flavor — in cigarettes and banning all flavors in cigars will help save lives, particularly among those disproportionately affected by these deadly products,” acting FDA Commissioner Janet Woodcock said in a statement.

More than 85 percent of Black Americans who smoke report using menthol products. But critics of the ban argue that it will trigger a black market that could exacerbate over-policing and violence against those communities.
...
A study cited by FDA suggests that banning menthol cigarettes in the U.S. would lead roughly 923,000 smokers to quit, including 230,000 Black Americans, in the first year and a half. Another study projects that 633,000 tobacco-related deaths would be averted.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Jaymann »

The ban is a good move, but I doubt menthol smokers will just quit. Black market, vaping & other alternatives will pick up most of the slack.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Jaymann wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:58 pm The ban is a good move, but I doubt menthol smokers will just quit. Black market, vaping & other alternatives will pick up most of the slack.
The switch from menthol to non-menthol is an easy one. Seems like just going after the easy target.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Isgrimnur »

They already hit every other flavor.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Smoove_B »

I was actually waiting for this to hit the news cycles. I'm quite curious to see if the right wing / conservative / freedom-loving lunatics pick up on the story and start railing against the government taking away their right to choose menthol.

Something tells me that no, they won't, mainly because of the target demographics for menthol products. I guess we'll see.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:48 pm I was actually waiting for this to hit the news cycles. I'm quite curious to see if the right wing / conservative / freedom-loving lunatics pick up on the story and start railing against the government taking away their right to choose menthol.

Something tells me that no, they won't, mainly because of the target demographics for menthol products. I guess we'll see.
I, for one, think it's absolutely ludicrous. Has the last 100 years of the war on drugs taught us nothing? It was non-regulated vapes that were putting people in the hospital not that long ago.

This is classic "I don't like it so ban it." Banning alcohol or fast food would save far more lives, but too many people like those. It's clear abuse of the majority.

Anyone that support this, but legalizing marijuana, is a hypocrite.

People have the right to do stupid stuff.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:29 pmThis is classic "I don't like it so ban it." Banning alcohol or fast food would save far more lives, but too many people like those. It's clear abuse of the majority.
Maybe it isn't wise policy but abuse of what?
Anyone that support this, but legalizing marijuana, is a hypocrite.
How? The relationship to hypocrisy is not clear at all. There are completely different rationales at play here.
People have the right to do stupid stuff.
Activities are regulated all the time. Some drugs are illegal. Others aren't. What "right" are you referring to here?
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:29 pm I, for one, think it's absolutely ludicrous.
I figured you would. :wink:
This is classic "I don't like it so ban it." Banning alcohol or fast food would save far more lives, but too many people like those. It's clear abuse of the majority.
Do you know the history of why menthol was added to tobacco? Or how long public health has been fighting to deal with it? If that first link is too much to read (and I can appreciate it likely is), the cliff notes are here.
People have the right to do stupid stuff.
Maybe. But professionally speaking, I feel like part of my existence is to step in sometimes and stop people from doing stupid stuff. If I have to go to my grave as the person vehemently against the consumption of raw milk and raw milk products, so be it.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:07 pmMaybe it isn't wise policy but abuse of what?
Abuse of the minority by the majority.
How? The relationship to hypocrisy is not clear at all. There are completely different rationales at play here.
Not really. This is one of those gray area items that's now unpopular. So it can be outlawed. Marijuana is now popular, so it's being legalized. It's capricious and based on popularity.
Activities are regulated all the time. Some drugs are illegal. Others aren't. What "right" are you referring to here?
We aren't talking regulated. We're talking about a ban. And we find over and over again bans don't work... especially for gray area dangerous stuff.

Smoove: of course I know it's terrible. So is the lottery. A $75 billion/year tax on (mostly) poor people. So is dessert and fast food (120 million obese people compared to 1 million menthol smokers). Alcohol is pretty terrible too.

So here's what happens. The government outlaws it. It goes underground. And people die from non-regulated chemicals. Great.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Isgrimnur »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:42 pm It's capricious and based on popularity.
Have you met people?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by dbt1949 »

I smoke many ages ago. I started off smoking menthols. The taste was easier to take than standard cigarettes. But I switched to regular ones after a few years as I figured they could put the worst tobacco in them and you'd never know.
Anyrate the switch over was no big deal and I really don't see it having much effect on dedicated smokers.
BTW I quit cold turkey back in 1977.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Combustible Lemur »

dbt1949 wrote:I smoke many ages ago. I started off smoking menthols. The taste was easier to take than standard cigarettes. But I switched to regular ones after a few years as I figured they could put the worst tobacco in them and you'd never know.
Anyrate the switch over was no big deal and I really don't see it having much effect on dedicated smokers.
BTW I quit cold turkey back in 1977.
Yeah I'm with the baninators on this one. Nobody is going to build a robust menthol cigarette underground. It's a clever way to depress cigarette sales. Menthol tastes better, but ban them and I'll smoke regular lights. Or ultra lights or buy a mentholated vape. But it will almost certainly discourage casual menthol smokers and kids.

I'm less convinced on flavored cigars. Are we talking swishers and acids, or grape blunt wraps. Swishers sweets or acids, is going to give teens a slighlty higher hurdle, but meh. Blunt wraps? Shit, good luck with that. Thats like asking people to only drink black coffee. In my experience more people use flavor than not.

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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Kraken »

I started on Salem menthols when I was 15 and drifted through Newports and Kools (the Black brand in its day) before settling on L&Ms because they had the highest nicotine content, and one does like to maximize one's money's worth ('course, at 40 cents a pack money wasn't a big consideration). I left menthol behind by the time I was 18 because those were considered children's cigarettes, "like sucking on a candy cane," as one of my friends put it.

I'm all for letting people choose their poisons and I don't want you to fuck with mine, but banning children's cigarettes doesn't raise my hackles. Dedicated smokers will transition to adult cigarettes without great hardship. And for those who can't, how long do you think it will take for someone to market a cigarette holder than injects menthol?
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:42 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:07 pmMaybe it isn't wise policy but abuse of what?
Abuse of the minority by the majority.
Clearer question - how is it abuse? What is the abuse? What is the right or principle being violated.
How? The relationship to hypocrisy is not clear at all. There are completely different rationales at play here.
Not really. This is one of those gray area items that's now unpopular. So it can be outlawed. Marijuana is now popular, so it's being legalized. It's capricious and based on popularity.
One is linked to the highest causes of deaths in our country and the other isn't. It isn't about "popularity". The prohibition against marijuana never made sense to begin with. This potential ban at least has decades of data that point to its actual harms. I don't think this is about "popularity". If the ban gets through the process it'll be supported by some level of scientific rigor.
Activities are regulated all the time. Some drugs are illegal. Others aren't. What "right" are you referring to here?
We aren't talking regulated. We're talking about a ban. And we find over and over again bans don't work... especially for gray area dangerous stuff.
A ban is a form of regulation. Anyway, I'm not disagreeing with you that prohibition don't absolutely work but they likely aren't looking for 100% here. The policy goal here seems to be to be breaking the addiction chain since the data shows us these are marketed to certain people and age groups with disproportionate health impacts that manifest far down the line.
So here's what happens. The government outlaws it. It goes underground. And people die from non-regulated chemicals. Great.
Its certainly possible and should be considered, but weighing trade offs the government's goal to improve overall public health and reduce health care costs overall is I imagine well offset positively against the risk that someone might make an un-regulated flavor that might kill people.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by LawBeefaroni »

If this was mint flavored chewing tobacco there would be a revolt.

It smacks of protecting the "noble savage" too much for me.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

If someone can put forth a legitimate argument about how Twinkies alcohol, and McDonald's are less dangerous than menthol cigarettes, I'll listen. Other than that, y'all have heard my piece.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by ImLawBoy »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:34 am If someone can put forth a legitimate argument about how Twinkies and McDonald's are less dangerous than menthol cigarettes, I'll listen. Other than that, y'all have heard my piece.
I'm not convinced that banning menthol cigarettes is a good idea (I tend to lean against), but this is just a bad argument. "Unless you resolve all other health problems with a bigger impact first, you shouldn't try to resolve lesser health problems."
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Smoove_B »

You're focused on the wrong thing here.

If I had evidence that suggested McDonalds added [Ingredient X] to their french fries because they knew it was making them more addictive for white, middle-aged men, I'd like to think we'd agree that's a problem.

Menthol does any number of things to a tobacco cigarette when added. However, it was intentionally added to the product because one of the effects was that it numbed the lungs and make smoking easier. More specifically, it lowered the bar for getting someone addicted. Knowing that, the tobacco companies targeted young, black Americans and once they learned that the demographic enjoyed mentholated tobacco more than other groups, they doubled-down on marketing and product delivery to maximize profits.

Tobacco, alcohol and fast food are all problematic. This is an effort to undo decades of targeted sales.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:43 am Tobacco, alcohol and fast food are all problematic. This is an effort to undo decades of targeted sales.
Signed, high fructose corn syrup, trans fat, advertising, and Happy Meals.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:06 am Signed, Happy Meals.
Does McDonalds change the food that goes in Happy Meals (does any restaurant offer chemically different food on their child menu)? If we should ban anything, it's the toy.

Smoove_B wants to ban children's toys!

EDIT: I'd love to stop the use of high fructose corn syrup. Good luck.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by Holman »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:06 am
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:43 am Tobacco, alcohol and fast food are all problematic. This is an effort to undo decades of targeted sales.
Signed, high fructose corn syrup, advertising, and Happy Meals.
Have you been inside of an elementary school in the past few decades? Their walls are plastered with government-supplied messaging about the importance of healthy eating and avoiding junk/fast food. It's not like the issue is being ignored.
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:08 am
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:06 am Signed, Happy Meals.
Does McDonalds change the food that goes in Happy Meals (does any restaurant offer chemically different food on their child menu)? If we should ban anything, it's the toy.

Smoove_B wants to ban children's toys!
Of course it does. It chooses the ingredients, packaging, and vibe to appeal to the widest range of customers. You've never seen a campaign for NOW WITH LEANER MEAT and a side of kale.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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noxiousdog
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Re: Speaking of smoking.....

Post by noxiousdog »

Holman wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:09 am
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:06 am
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:43 am Tobacco, alcohol and fast food are all problematic. This is an effort to undo decades of targeted sales.
Signed, high fructose corn syrup, advertising, and Happy Meals.
Have you been inside of an elementary school in the past few decades? Their walls are plastered with government-supplied messaging about the importance of healthy eating and avoiding junk/fast food. It's not like the issue is being ignored.
I'm fine with a huge campaign on the dangers of smoking, including ones that are funded by the government and nicotine treatment programs.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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