This seems oddly retrograde. What's going on at the Vatican these days? Is it just that Benedict XVI has some old-fashioned ideas, or is this more widespread than one man?Pope Benedict's plans to revive the Latin Mass, which includes prayers for the conversion of Jews, is causing concern among Catholic and Jewish groups about relations between their faiths.
Religious commentators predict that Pope Benedict will issue authorisation for wider use of the Mass - known as the Tridentine Mass - soon.
The Mass was celebrated for hundreds of years before being replaced by a liturgy celebrated in local languages, as part of reforms instigated after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
The old wording has none of the Vatican Council thinking that reversed long-standing anti-Jewish views in the Church. Vatican II brought about a revolution in Catholic thinking, highlighting the ancient Jewish roots of Christianity and affirming God's love for the Jews.
Concern is now focused on traditional mass's Good Friday liturgy which contains a prayer "For the conversion of the Jews". The prayer reads:
"Let us pray also for the Jews, that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ."
It refers to their "blindness" and prays for them to be "delivered from their darkness."
Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
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Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm
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Well, one might look askance at some of his business partners...
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jew
"That would be an ecumenical matter."Padre wrote:This seems oddly retrograde. What's going on at the Vatican these days? Is it just that Benedict XVI has some old-fashioned ideas, or is this more widespread than one man?
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Anti-papist propaganda. This is nothing new.
There have been conservative parishes that have said the Latin/Tridentine mass for years. Opus Dei has a charter parish at St. John Cantius on Augusta in Chicago. I've even been to a funeral given in Latin there.
That being said, it's no surprise that Pope "Palpatine" Benedict would permit wider use of Latin mass. His background has been Catholic othodoxy, and it's known he's in favor of the old school pre-Vatican II tradition like the mass. It sucks for reform minded Catholics like me and my wife's family.
There have been conservative parishes that have said the Latin/Tridentine mass for years. Opus Dei has a charter parish at St. John Cantius on Augusta in Chicago. I've even been to a funeral given in Latin there.
That being said, it's no surprise that Pope "Palpatine" Benedict would permit wider use of Latin mass. His background has been Catholic othodoxy, and it's known he's in favor of the old school pre-Vatican II tradition like the mass. It sucks for reform minded Catholics like me and my wife's family.
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One should not confuse the rite with the language. The new form of the rite is frequently said in Latin, and once the old rite is restored to equal status, it will likely be adapted as well someday and could be celebrated in the vernacular then.
In fact, re-enabling these natural developments is probably Benedict's prime motivation. The suppression of the old form by Paul VI was an act of unprecedented papal presumptuousness. Benedict is on record saying that the Pope should act like a gardener, not like an architect.
In fact, re-enabling these natural developments is probably Benedict's prime motivation. The suppression of the old form by Paul VI was an act of unprecedented papal presumptuousness. Benedict is on record saying that the Pope should act like a gardener, not like an architect.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jew
This calls for some Tom Lehrer (audio file)
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Um... you're going to have to explain that one to me.D'Arcy wrote:One should not confuse the rite with the language.
Oh, do you mean the fact that the mass is said in Latin isn't important? Well, yeah, I agree. I don't care if they're reciting prayers in Latin, English, Aramaic or Klingon. Whatever gets them through the day.
What I'm troubled by is the prayers for the conversion of the Jews. What's with brining that back?
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It has never been removed in the first place, only rephrased in what might be called more ambiguous or politically correct words. However, the "progress in their covenant" currently prayed for amounts to the same thing.Padre wrote:What I'm troubled by is the prayers for the conversion of the Jews. What's with brining that back?
And what's troublesome about that? If praying for someone else's conversion is bad, a lot more Christians are in trouble, as that seems to be a pretty common thing.
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Only ignorance prevents interested parties from recognizing (ideological preconceptions notwithstanding) that prayer for the conversion of the Jews has a long, respected pedigree.
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Perhaps, but it was not the Church who has chosen this people above all nations.Nade wrote:Some might consider the focus on the conversion of members of one particular group of people creepy
On the other hand, one might find it reasonable to expect that awareness of the bad, violent methods would lead to a special appreciation of the good, peaceful methods.particularily given some of the historical methods used to bring about conversions.
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And that's not to mention the deceptive practices of jfj
Well, given that the goal results in the end of Judaism, I'd say that it takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest that they appreciate it.D'Arcy wrote: On the other hand, one might find it reasonable to expect that awareness of the bad, violent methods would lead to a special appreciation of the good, peaceful methods.
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Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.Nade wrote:Well, given that the goal results in the end of Judaism, I'd say that it takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest that they appreciate it.
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Exactly. It's just like someone trying to get their friend to read Return of the King after they've already read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Two Towers. It's just natural that you should go ahead and read the last book to see how the story ends. They don't see what the big deal is, while their friend doesn't accept RotK as being canon so they don't feel they should have to read it and that it's nothing more than fan fiction.Grundbegriff wrote:Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.
Yes, religious conversations make me nervous so I tried to change it into fantasy geek terms.
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Re: And that's not to mention the deceptive practices of jfj
Grund's point is well taken, but if it bothers you, let me assure you that converting the jews isn't a big topic of conversation at church on sundays.Nade wrote:Well, given that the goal results in the end of Judaism, I'd say that it takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest that they appreciate it.D'Arcy wrote: On the other hand, one might find it reasonable to expect that awareness of the bad, violent methods would lead to a special appreciation of the good, peaceful methods.
And btw, this is simply a prayer. There's no plan to kidnap jews into the faith. In fact, if you're worried about christian prayers, you (general you) probably aren't much of a jew.
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The sequel is never as good as the original.Kehama wrote: Exactly. It's just like someone trying to get their friend to read Return of the King after they've already read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Two Towers. It's just natural that you should go ahead and read the last book to see how the story ends.
(Wouldn't Islam be Return of the King?)
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Oooh... good point. I always forget about the theological progression of one of the most widespread religions on the planet. Shame on me.Nade wrote:The sequel is never as good as the original.
(Wouldn't Islam be Return of the King?)
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Heh. That must be what the Mormons think about the rest of Christendom ....Kehama wrote:Exactly. It's just like someone trying to get their friend to read Return of the King after they've already read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Two Towers. It's just natural that you should go ahead and read the last book to see how the story ends. They don't see what the big deal is, while their friend doesn't accept RotK as being canon so they don't feel they should have to read it and that it's nothing more than fan fiction.Grundbegriff wrote:Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.
Yes, religious conversations make me nervous so I tried to change it into fantasy geek terms.
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Doh! Ok. I've gotta' draw the line somewhere. We can't just let the sequels keep coming. Maybe Mormonism could be like LotRo. It expands on the story found in the existing canon. I'm not even sure how to handle the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I'm kinda' running out of Tolkien references.GuidoTKP wrote:Heh. That must be what the Mormons think about the rest of Christendom ....
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
Pope Francis says nope.
Pope Francis cracked down July 16 on the spread of the old Latin Mass, reversing one of Pope Benedict XVI's signature decisions in a major challenge to traditionalist Catholics who immediately decried it as an attack on them and the ancient liturgy.
Francis reimposed restrictions on celebrating the Latin Mass that Benedict had relaxed in 2007. Francis said he was doing so because Benedict's reform had become a source of division in the Roman Catholic Church and used as a tool by Catholics opposed to the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 event that led to wide reforms across the global church.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
Wow. This is going to make for some entertaining posts from people I know.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
If it ain't from U2K, I don't care.
Covfefe!
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
I heard that the Pope is going to remove the restriction banning people from jumping on furniture, citing Jesus's "Sermon While Standing on the Couch".
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
Dude, please be sensitive to Hepcat!
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
Laugh all you want, but....
....well....that's all I got. Laugh all you want.
Man, I hope z-corn shows up where you work and offers you hot chocolate.
....well....that's all I got. Laugh all you want.
Man, I hope z-corn shows up where you work and offers you hot chocolate.
Covfefe!
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
Scrolling to the top of this post makes me a bit sad to see how many good souls we have lost over the years.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews
I would love that. Why hasn't Z-Corn reached my workplace yet?hepcat wrote:Laugh all you want, but....
....well....that's all I got. Laugh all you want.
Man, I hope z-corn shows up where you work and offers you hot chocolate.
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