Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

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Padre
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Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by Padre »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm
Pope Benedict's plans to revive the Latin Mass, which includes prayers for the conversion of Jews, is causing concern among Catholic and Jewish groups about relations between their faiths.

Religious commentators predict that Pope Benedict will issue authorisation for wider use of the Mass - known as the Tridentine Mass - soon.

The Mass was celebrated for hundreds of years before being replaced by a liturgy celebrated in local languages, as part of reforms instigated after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.

The old wording has none of the Vatican Council thinking that reversed long-standing anti-Jewish views in the Church. Vatican II brought about a revolution in Catholic thinking, highlighting the ancient Jewish roots of Christianity and affirming God's love for the Jews.

Concern is now focused on traditional mass's Good Friday liturgy which contains a prayer "For the conversion of the Jews". The prayer reads:

"Let us pray also for the Jews, that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ."

It refers to their "blindness" and prays for them to be "delivered from their darkness."
This seems oddly retrograde. What's going on at the Vatican these days? Is it just that Benedict XVI has some old-fashioned ideas, or is this more widespread than one man?
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Post by Dan_Theman »

[url=http://www.Im_using_satire_silly.com/]Link[/url]

Jew's say "Thanks... but no thanks" and pray that the Papacy has the heart to start giving a darn about the "blindness" and "delivery from darkness" of members from other faiths like Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc, and not just theirs.
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Post by Mr Random »

Well, one might look askance at some of his business partners...
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Post by hepcat »

I anxiously await the news from the Vatican that the Sun does indeed circle the Earth.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jew

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Padre wrote:This seems oddly retrograde. What's going on at the Vatican these days? Is it just that Benedict XVI has some old-fashioned ideas, or is this more widespread than one man?
"That would be an ecumenical matter."

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Post by Hamsterball_Z »

I guess we can expect these guys soon

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Post by docvego »

Personally, I'd never expect that Hamsterball.
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Post by The Divider »

Nobody would.
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:P
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Post by hepcat »

Hamsterball_Z wrote:I guess we can expect these guys soon

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the fact that one of them wears an aviator's hat has always been more hilarious to me than anything else. :lol:
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Post by Zarathud »

Anti-papist propaganda. This is nothing new.

There have been conservative parishes that have said the Latin/Tridentine mass for years. Opus Dei has a charter parish at St. John Cantius on Augusta in Chicago. I've even been to a funeral given in Latin there.

That being said, it's no surprise that Pope "Palpatine" Benedict would permit wider use of Latin mass. His background has been Catholic othodoxy, and it's known he's in favor of the old school pre-Vatican II tradition like the mass. It sucks for reform minded Catholics like me and my wife's family.
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Post by D'Arcy »

One should not confuse the rite with the language. The new form of the rite is frequently said in Latin, and once the old rite is restored to equal status, it will likely be adapted as well someday and could be celebrated in the vernacular then.

In fact, re-enabling these natural developments is probably Benedict's prime motivation. The suppression of the old form by Paul VI was an act of unprecedented papal presumptuousness. Benedict is on record saying that the Pope should act like a gardener, not like an architect.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jew

Post by Grundbegriff »

This calls for some Tom Lehrer (audio file)
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Post by Padre »

D'Arcy wrote:One should not confuse the rite with the language.
Um... you're going to have to explain that one to me.

Oh, do you mean the fact that the mass is said in Latin isn't important? Well, yeah, I agree. I don't care if they're reciting prayers in Latin, English, Aramaic or Klingon. Whatever gets them through the day.

What I'm troubled by is the prayers for the conversion of the Jews. What's with brining that back?
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Post by D'Arcy »

Padre wrote:What I'm troubled by is the prayers for the conversion of the Jews. What's with brining that back?
It has never been removed in the first place, only rephrased in what might be called more ambiguous or politically correct words. However, the "progress in their covenant" currently prayed for amounts to the same thing.

And what's troublesome about that? If praying for someone else's conversion is bad, a lot more Christians are in trouble, as that seems to be a pretty common thing.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Only ignorance prevents interested parties from recognizing (ideological preconceptions notwithstanding) that prayer for the conversion of the Jews has a long, respected pedigree.
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Post by mrFal »

The pope has my blessing to kiss my ass :x
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Post by Defiant »

D'Arcy wrote: And what's troublesome about that?
Some might consider the focus on the conversion of members of one particular group of people creepy, particularily given some of the historical methods used to bring about conversions.
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Post by D'Arcy »

Nade wrote:Some might consider the focus on the conversion of members of one particular group of people creepy
Perhaps, but it was not the Church who has chosen this people above all nations.
particularily given some of the historical methods used to bring about conversions.
On the other hand, one might find it reasonable to expect that awareness of the bad, violent methods would lead to a special appreciation of the good, peaceful methods.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

As Lehrer noted concerning Germany, "We taught them a lesson in 1918, and they've hardly bothered us since then...."
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And that's not to mention the deceptive practices of jfj

Post by Defiant »

D'Arcy wrote: On the other hand, one might find it reasonable to expect that awareness of the bad, violent methods would lead to a special appreciation of the good, peaceful methods.
Well, given that the goal results in the end of Judaism, I'd say that it takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest that they appreciate it.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Nade wrote:Well, given that the goal results in the end of Judaism, I'd say that it takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest that they appreciate it.
Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.
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Post by Kehama »

Grundbegriff wrote:Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.
Exactly. It's just like someone trying to get their friend to read Return of the King after they've already read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Two Towers. It's just natural that you should go ahead and read the last book to see how the story ends. They don't see what the big deal is, while their friend doesn't accept RotK as being canon so they don't feel they should have to read it and that it's nothing more than fan fiction.

Yes, religious conversations make me nervous so I tried to change it into fantasy geek terms. :P
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Re: And that's not to mention the deceptive practices of jfj

Post by Poleaxe »

Nade wrote:
D'Arcy wrote: On the other hand, one might find it reasonable to expect that awareness of the bad, violent methods would lead to a special appreciation of the good, peaceful methods.
Well, given that the goal results in the end of Judaism, I'd say that it takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest that they appreciate it.
Grund's point is well taken, but if it bothers you, let me assure you that converting the jews isn't a big topic of conversation at church on sundays.

And btw, this is simply a prayer. There's no plan to kidnap jews into the faith. In fact, if you're worried about christian prayers, you (general you) probably aren't much of a jew.
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Post by Freezer-TPF- »

It's okay -- in my church, we frequently pray for the enlightenment of the Catholic Church.
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Post by Defiant »

Grundbegriff wrote: Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.
And Jews don't. Which is probably worth considering before suggesting they appreciate it.
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Post by Defiant »

Kehama wrote: Exactly. It's just like someone trying to get their friend to read Return of the King after they've already read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Two Towers. It's just natural that you should go ahead and read the last book to see how the story ends.
The sequel is never as good as the original. ;)

(Wouldn't Islam be Return of the King?)
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Post by Kehama »

Nade wrote:The sequel is never as good as the original. ;)

(Wouldn't Islam be Return of the King?)
Oooh... good point. I always forget about the theological progression of one of the most widespread religions on the planet. Shame on me.
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Post by GuidoTKP »

Kehama wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Christians don't regard the conversion of Jews as the end of Judaism; Christians regard Christianity as Judaism and the conversion of Jews as the fulfillment and completion of Judaism.
Exactly. It's just like someone trying to get their friend to read Return of the King after they've already read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and the Two Towers. It's just natural that you should go ahead and read the last book to see how the story ends. They don't see what the big deal is, while their friend doesn't accept RotK as being canon so they don't feel they should have to read it and that it's nothing more than fan fiction.

Yes, religious conversations make me nervous so I tried to change it into fantasy geek terms. :P
Heh. That must be what the Mormons think about the rest of Christendom ....
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Post by Kehama »

GuidoTKP wrote:Heh. That must be what the Mormons think about the rest of Christendom ....
Doh! Ok. I've gotta' draw the line somewhere. We can't just let the sequels keep coming. Maybe Mormonism could be like LotRo. It expands on the story found in the existing canon. I'm not even sure how to handle the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I'm kinda' running out of Tolkien references.
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Post by tgb »

Considering that one of the basic tenets of Judaism is that the Messiah has not yet come, conversion would indeed spell the end of Judaism,
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Post by Grifman »

tgb wrote:Considering that one of the basic tenets of Judaism is that the Messiah has not yet come, conversion would indeed spell the end of Judaism,
Or the fulfillment of it, as the case may be :)
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by AWS260 »

Pope Francis says nope.
Pope Francis cracked down July 16 on the spread of the old Latin Mass, reversing one of Pope Benedict XVI's signature decisions in a major challenge to traditionalist Catholics who immediately decried it as an attack on them and the ancient liturgy.

Francis reimposed restrictions on celebrating the Latin Mass that Benedict had relaxed in 2007. Francis said he was doing so because Benedict's reform had become a source of division in the Roman Catholic Church and used as a tool by Catholics opposed to the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 event that led to wide reforms across the global church.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by stessier »

Wow. This is going to make for some entertaining posts from people I know. :pop: :pop:
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by hepcat »

If it ain't from U2K, I don't care. :snooty:
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

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I heard that the Pope is going to remove the restriction banning people from jumping on furniture, citing Jesus's "Sermon While Standing on the Couch".
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by Freyland »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:53 pm I heard that the Pope is going to remove the restriction banning people from jumping on furniture, citing Jesus's "Sermon While Standing on the Couch".
Dude, please be sensitive to Hepcat!
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by hepcat »

Laugh all you want, but....


....well....that's all I got. Laugh all you want.

Man, I hope z-corn shows up where you work and offers you hot chocolate.
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Scrolling to the top of this post makes me a bit sad to see how many good souls we have lost over the years. :(
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Re: Pope to revive Latin Mass, prayers for conversion of Jews

Post by El Guapo »

hepcat wrote:Laugh all you want, but....


....well....that's all I got. Laugh all you want.

Man, I hope z-corn shows up where you work and offers you hot chocolate.
I would love that. Why hasn't Z-Corn reached my workplace yet?

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