Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Little Raven »

Research suggests it can.
Donald trump’s rise to power generated a flood of media coverage and academic research on authoritarianism—or at least the kind of authoritarianism that exists on the political right. Over the past several years, some researchers have theorized that Trump couldn’t have won in 2016 without support from Americans who deplore political compromise and want leaders to rule with a strong hand. Although right-wing authoritarianism is well documented, social psychologists do not all agree that a leftist version even exists. In February 2020, the Society for Personality and Social Psychology held a symposium called “Is Left-Wing Authoritarianism Real? Evidence on Both Sides of the Debate.”

An ambitious new study on the subject by the Emory University researcher Thomas H. Costello and five colleagues should settle the question. It proposes a rigorous new measure of antidemocratic attitudes on the left. And, by drawing on a survey of 7,258 adults, Costello’s team firmly establishes that such attitudes exist on both sides of the American electorate. (One co-author on the paper, I should note, was Costello’s adviser, the late Scott Lilienfeld—with whom I wrote a 2013 book and numerous articles.) Intriguingly, the researchers found some common traits between left-wing and right-wing authoritarians, including a “preference for social uniformity, prejudice towards different others, willingness to wield group authority to coerce behavior, cognitive rigidity, aggression and punitiveness towards perceived enemies, outsized concern for hierarchy, and moral absolutism.”

Published last month in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, the Costello team’s paper is persuasive, to the point that you have to wonder: How could past researchers have overlooked left-wing authoritarianism for so long? “For 70 years, the lore in the social sciences has been that authoritarianism was to be found exclusively on the political right,” the Rutgers University social psychologist Lee Jussim, who wasn’t involved in the new study, told me in an email. In the 1950 book The Authoritarian Personality, an inquiry into the psychological makeup of people strongly drawn to autocratic rule and repressive politics, the German-born scholar Theodor W. Adorno and three other psychologists measured people along dimensions such as conformity to societal norms, rigid thinking, and sexual repression. And they concluded that “the authoritarian type of human”— the kind of person whose enthusiastic support allows someone like Hitler to exercise power—was found only among conservatives. In the mid-1990s, the influential Canadian psychologist Bob Altemeyer described left-wing authoritarianism as “the Loch Ness Monster of political psychology—an occasional shadow, but no monster. ” Subsequently, other psychologists reached the same conclusion.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Freyland »

It's hard to imagine, since the Left seems to be the political equivalent of herding cats.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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I can imagine a Woke Nation where everyone is afraid to speak out.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by malchior »

So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Combustible Lemur »

malchior wrote:So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened?
This. Communism was just a red herring.

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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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I think it's called Stalinism.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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dbt1949 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:09 pm I think it's called Stalinism.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Holman »

Revolutionary France was the first national-level example.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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gbasden wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.
Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by LordMortis »

Kraken wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm
gbasden wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.
Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.
There is reason why the right used to talk about he left in terms of the nanny state and like it or not all of the environmental regulation is authoritarian in nature. I'm sure Plato considered his vision of the philosopher king to be quite benevolent and progressive and yet it's the appeal that all fascists go for.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Imagine if these drive-by, passive-aggressive posts actually included commentary beyond a smiley. Something that the posters would have to commit to and defend.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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malchior wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.
We are talking about the premier minds in our premier universities. I'm sure they know basic history. Nobody would doubt that the Soviet Union was authoritarian, but I personally know a great many on the left who would passionately argue that it was NOT left-wing, particularly once Stalin got involved. They would say that the Soviet Union was just another right-wing dictatorship, albeit one that cloaked itself in leftist ideology.

Which leads back to the long-standing assumption in academia that left-wing people are not authoritarian...indeed...that their basic mental makeup means they are literally incapable of it. Only conservatives, it was believed, possessed the basic drive to brutally police others and rigidly enforce hierarchies.
In the 1950 book The Authoritarian Personality, an inquiry into the psychological makeup of people strongly drawn to autocratic rule and repressive politics, the German-born scholar Theodor W. Adorno and three other psychologists measured people along dimensions such as conformity to societal norms, rigid thinking, and sexual repression. And they concluded that “the authoritarian type of human”— the kind of person whose enthusiastic support allows someone like Hitler to exercise power—was found only among conservatives. In the mid-1990s, the influential Canadian psychologist Bob Altemeyer described left-wing authoritarianism as “the Loch Ness Monster of political psychology—an occasional shadow, but no monster. ” Subsequently, other psychologists reached the same conclusion.
To be fair, I do suspect that this is a view that existed mostly inside the ivory tower. I doubt the idea that only conservatives were capable of being power hungry dicks ever held much sway among ordinary people.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Drazzil »

gbasden wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by malchior »

Little Raven wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:10 pm
malchior wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.
We are talking about the premier minds in our premier universities. I'm sure they know basic history. Nobody would doubt that the Soviet Union was authoritarian, but I personally know a great many on the left who would passionately argue that it was NOT left-wing, particularly once Stalin got involved. They would say that the Soviet Union was just another right-wing dictatorship, albeit one that cloaked itself in leftist ideology.
Yeah I got that from the context. I was mocking the idea since it is clearly wrong. Hang out on a college campus or deal constantly like I do with so called 'liberals' these days and you'll see left-wing authoritarianism playing out on nearly every campus and in many other institutions right now. I can't help but think that the academic community attitude is changing upon realizing that the illiberal left has now taken to storming their ivory towers with regularity now.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Little Raven »

malchior wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:38 pmI can't help but think that the academic community attitude is changing upon realizing that the illiberal left has now taken to storming their ivory towers with regularity now.
:lol:

That's a delightful bit of imagery. But if so, it's changing slowly.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by gbasden »

Kraken wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm
gbasden wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.
Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.
Yes, well, Conservatives are fucking stupid.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Little Raven »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:11 pm Imagine if these drive-by, passive-aggressive posts actually included commentary beyond a smiley. Something that the posters would have to commit to and defend.
:?

I'm right here, Blackhawk. What did you want to talk about?
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Madmarcus »

Little Raven wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:10 pm Which leads back to the long-standing assumption in academia that left-wing people are not authoritarian...indeed...that their basic mental makeup means they are literally incapable of it. Only conservatives, it was believed, possessed the basic drive to brutally police others and rigidly enforce hierarchies.
From the outside it looks like academic lefties made an assumption and then more or less turned it into a definition.
Certainly preference for social uniformity, prejudice towards different others, willingness to wield group authority to coerce behavior, cognitive rigidity, aggression and punitiveness towards perceived enemies, and moral absolutism feel like the defining characteristics of a many of the urban, middle class (very broadly defined) liberals I know or interact with. The only one that seems weak might be outsized concern for hierarchy so the emphasis is on shaming and ostracizing the people who don't conform instead of any sort of official status.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Little Raven wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:10 pm
malchior wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:45 pm So these geniuses proved the Soviet Union existed? Or that the Cultural Revolution happened? Both saw sexual, social, and economic repression.
We are talking about the premier minds in our premier universities. I'm sure they know basic history. Nobody would doubt that the Soviet Union was authoritarian, but I personally know a great many on the left who would passionately argue that it was NOT left-wing, particularly once Stalin got involved. They would say that the Soviet Union was just another right-wing dictatorship, albeit one that cloaked itself in leftist ideology.

Which leads back to the long-standing assumption in academia that left-wing people are not authoritarian...indeed...that their basic mental makeup means they are literally incapable of it. Only conservatives, it was believed, possessed the basic drive to brutally police others and rigidly enforce hierarchies.
In the 1950 book The Authoritarian Personality, an inquiry into the psychological makeup of people strongly drawn to autocratic rule and repressive politics, the German-born scholar Theodor W. Adorno and three other psychologists measured people along dimensions such as conformity to societal norms, rigid thinking, and sexual repression. And they concluded that “the authoritarian type of human”— the kind of person whose enthusiastic support allows someone like Hitler to exercise power—was found only among conservatives. In the mid-1990s, the influential Canadian psychologist Bob Altemeyer described left-wing authoritarianism as “the Loch Ness Monster of political psychology—an occasional shadow, but no monster. ” Subsequently, other psychologists reached the same conclusion.
To be fair, I do suspect that this is a view that existed mostly inside the ivory tower. I doubt the idea that only conservatives were capable of being power hungry dicks ever held much sway among ordinary people.
Yeah, anyone who is asking the question about whether it's possible to have left-wing authoritarianism *either* lacks a basic knowledge of history or is defining terms so as to make it impossible. Obviously the USSR and Communist China were left-wing dictatorships, in that they were using dictatorial power to achieve leftist political goals (greater labor power, greater equality, etc.). Any dictatorship / authoritarian state, no matter what its political leanings, always winds up using its power to also preserve its power and to enrich its rulers, though I wouldn't really consider that left or right wing.

I think this type of exercise is mostly driven by the thought process "Authoritarians are bad. My politics are good. Therefore it must be impossible for my politics to support authoritarian governments."
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Kraken wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:52 pm
gbasden wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:51 pm Yeah. Humans can all be shitty. The difference is that right now there is a very strong authoritarian push on the right and nothing on the left in this country. The risk at this moment is quite low for a dictatorial left.
Conservatives consider mandatory public health measures, especially mask and vaccine mandates, to be authoritarian.
Yep. It's quite telling how many tweets I see highlighting people on the right calling people on the left fascist for this sort of thing.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by malchior »

Yep any mandates are TYRANNY. The right is especially obsessed with Australia's fairly effective COVID response - maybe because Murdoch is directing their eyes there. "This is why they took Australians guns away. The police are fascists. The Australian government is out of control." Yadda yadda yadda.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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There is a limit to how much we would be willing to hand wave. At least do it like a proper politician, ya know, quietly.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Grifman wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?
I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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El Guapo wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:25 pm
Grifman wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?
I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.
For me, that ship sailed in 2020. I could see me sitting out for a superficially reasonable GOP candidate vs Bizarro Left Trump. (Not to say that W was superficially reasonable. I'm thinking more like a Kasich, wherein I don't know how much he would be reasonable, how much he would be unreasonable, and how much he would just go along with the party. Kasich is probably the most reasonable of the last round of GOP candidates.)
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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El Guapo wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:25 pm
Grifman wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?
I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.
Definitely Bizarro Lefty. The Repugnicans, even as the Say-Puff Marshmallow Man, are now unmitigated democracy destroyers.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Jaymann wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:32 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:25 pm
Grifman wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:00 pm I've always wondered what would be the response here at OO to a liberal Trump-like candidate. Someone who gave the left everything they wanted (abortion, Supreme Court judges, global warming initiatives, gun control, social spending, etc), but used hateful Trump like rhetoric about gun owners, Christians, cultural conservatives, business owners, who drew back from US international commitments (NATO for example) so defense spending could be cut and social welfare spending increased, and who sought press restrictions on FOX News and other conservative outlets, who also talked like Trump about autocratic power, who had adult children he gave govt posts to, who made decisions that benefited his own businesses, and made accusations about the Republicans like Trump does of the Democrats. How much Trumpism would people be willing to accept to get their dream programs?
I'm sure the candidate would get a decent amount of criticism here, but the real question is whether people here would be willing to vote for a GOP candidate over the Bizarro Lefty Trump. And on that, it would matter who the GOP candidate was - if it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. Actual Trump (Trump Prime?), then I'm sure Bizarro Lefty Trump would clean up here.

But suppose it was Bizarro Lefty Trump vs. George W. Bush, say.
Definitely Bizarro Lefty. The Repugnicans, even as the Say-Puff Marshmallow Man, are now unmitigated democracy destroyers.
Bizarro lefty, ! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY VOTE!!!1

Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Drazzil wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:22 pm Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.
You do realize that this attitude is exactly what fucked us in the first place, right? It's just maintaining the nightmare instead of solving anything. Going back to mutually assured destruction is that appealing?
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:37 pm
Drazzil wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:22 pm Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.
You do realize that this attitude is exactly what fucked us in the first place, right? It's just maintaining the nightmare instead of solving anything. Going back to mutually assured destruction is that appealing?
I believe that the lack of turning the carceral state on the 1% is exactly why we are here in the first place. Not to use it to kick the shit out of em will just ensure more of this sort of thing happens in the future.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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1%ers may (arguably) be responsible for a continuing holocaust against people who work for a living. And before you say that's stupid, really think about the idea.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Drazzil wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:37 pm
Drazzil wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:22 pm Especially if he manages to pwn the R's. The lower he can drag em the better. Turn the carceral state on them for a change.
You do realize that this attitude is exactly what fucked us in the first place, right? It's just maintaining the nightmare instead of solving anything. Going back to mutually assured destruction is that appealing?
I believe that the lack of turning the carceral state on the 1% is exactly why we are here in the first place. Not to use it to kick the shit out of em will just ensure more of this sort of thing happens in the future.
Everything else aside, you're not going to be able to target your revenge plans against the 1%. You're going to be hitting the street level voters, who will then turn around and give us another Trump promising them revenge against us. Back and forth, back and forth. And that's the easiest, laziest way to guarantee everyone loses.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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Drazzil wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:50 pm 1%ers may (arguably) be responsible for a continuing holocaust against people who work for a living. And before you say that's stupid, really think about the idea.
After really think about the idea, I still say that's stupid.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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To much of the world, America itself is the 1 percent. Let’s put ourselves in jail.
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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I already am.
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Otis Campbell, you’re dbt???
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Funny thing is my wife's maiden name and her children's name is Campbell.
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You and I are the oldsters that recognize that reference. :D
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Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

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I think there are a few more of us...
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Carpet_pissr
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Can authoritarianism exist on the left?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Uhhh, yeah. That show would be on my short list of ‘series that you’ve watched multiple times’ (as a kid).
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