COVID-19 treatment and vaccine update thread

[Lorini]

Who knows when California will remove the mask mandate. Without a way to show vaccination on your phone, that guidance is dead in the water here.

Confused. Do Californians get vaccinations cards? How does this relate to your phone? Wondering...

Regarding indoor businesses, without an easy way to identify a vaccinated person from an unvaccinated person, presumably with an app you could show on your phone, this guidance is going to create chaos. I think it’s really really stupid for the federal government to issue these guidelines without providing an easy way for verifying vaccination status. As it is, there’ll be people in parking lots selling fake vaccination cards so others can enter the business without wearing a mask.

[stessier]

Who knows when California will remove the mask mandate. Without a way to show vaccination on your phone, that guidance is dead in the water here.

Confused. Do Californians get vaccinations cards? How does this relate to your phone? Wondering...

Regarding indoor businesses, without an easy way to identify a vaccinated person from an unvaccinated person, presumably with an app you could show on your phone, this guidance is going to create chaos. I think it’s really really stupid for the federal government to issue these guidelines without providing an easy way for verifying vaccination status. As it is, there’ll be people in parking lots selling fake vaccination cards so others can enter the business without wearing a mask.

I don't understand the problem. If you are vaccinated, you will be fine and have a very, very low risk of spreading anything you might catch and not know about. Everyone else has made their bed and can sleep in it. The exception, of course, is children - but parents can control that to a large, if annoying, extent.

[LordMortis]

I don't understand the problem. If you are vaccinated, you will be fine and have a very, very low risk of spreading anything you might catch and not know about. Everyone else has made their bed and can sleep in it. The exception, of course, is children - but parents can control that to a large, if annoying, extent.

Ignoring for the moment the global spread, we know the virus mutates. More unvaccinated risk for spread to each other means more mutations means a quicker timeline to my vaccination becoming ineffective.

What can we do about it? I'm not sure we can do anything. Do what's reasonable and keep on keepin on.

[stessier]

I don't understand the problem. If you are vaccinated, you will be fine and have a very, very low risk of spreading anything you might catch and not know about. Everyone else has made their bed and can sleep in it. The exception, of course, is children - but parents can control that to a large, if annoying, extent.

Ignoring for the moment the global spread, we know the virus mutates. More unvaccinated risk for spread to each other means more mutations means a quicker timeline to my vaccination becoming ineffective.

What can we do about it? I'm not sure we can do anything. Do what's reasonable and keep on keepin on.

That doesn't have anything to do with vaccinated people removing their masks.

[YellowKing]

I think the fear is you've now opened the door for the lifting of mask mandates for businesses (since nobody is going to be enforcing vaccination cards, it's not happening). The vaccinated people will be fine, but now Target will be filled with a bunch of unmasked, unvaccinated people passing it around to each other, which opens the door for spread and mutation.

I'm assuming people smarter than me have crunched the numbers and calculated that the risk is low enough that it's worth letting the unvaccinated take a hit. They're counting on enough unvaccinated people to "do the right thing" and continue to wear a mask which puts a lot more faith in them than I have.

However, I'm also not a fan of dragging out restrictions forever on people who did do the right thing.

[Blackhawk]

Nobody enforces vaccination cards because vaccination cards are unenforceable. They're easy to make at home, and aren't backed up by any sort of database. That means that they're pretty much meaningless - anybody can have one that wants one. And any attempt at any means of actually confirming vaccinations is instantly attacked as a "lib conspiracy" and is shut down.

[Zarathud]

This is likely done in part to incentivize adults to get vaccinated.

[El Guapo]

I think the fear is you've now opened the door for the lifting of mask mandates for businesses (since nobody is going to be enforcing vaccination cards, it's not happening). The vaccinated people will be fine, but now Target will be filled with a bunch of unmasked, unvaccinated people passing it around to each other, which opens the door for spread and mutation.

I'm assuming people smarter than me have crunched the numbers and calculated that the risk is low enough that it's worth letting the unvaccinated take a hit. They're counting on enough unvaccinated people to "do the right thing" and continue to wear a mask which puts a lot more faith in them than I have.

However, I'm also not a fan of dragging out restrictions forever on people who did do the right thing.

There's no easy answer here. Part of the issue is that the real issue as we've been getting at is not vaccinated people it's unvaccinated people. But the data has progressed to the point where the CDC has to admit that it's safe for vaccinated people to forego masks (at least at the moment). Ideally the CDC would at the same time repeatedly emphasize that stores should retain mask mandates because of the presence of unvaccinated people (that would also generate social pressure on unvaccinated people to get vaccinated), but I'm sure that it'd be hard for the CDC to get that part of the message to stick.

[Lorini]

I think the fear is you've now opened the door for the lifting of mask mandates for businesses (since nobody is going to be enforcing vaccination cards, it's not happening). The vaccinated people will be fine, but now Target will be filled with a bunch of unmasked, unvaccinated people passing it around to each other, which opens the door for spread and mutation.

I'm assuming people smarter than me have crunched the numbers and calculated that the risk is low enough that it's worth letting the unvaccinated take a hit. They're counting on enough unvaccinated people to "do the right thing" and continue to wear a mask which puts a lot more faith in them than I have.

However, I'm also not a fan of dragging out restrictions forever on people who did do the right thing.

There's no easy answer here. Part of the issue is that the real issue as we've been getting at is not vaccinated people it's unvaccinated people. But the data has progressed to the point where the CDC has to admit that it's safe for vaccinated people to forego masks (at least at the moment). Ideally the CDC would at the same time repeatedly emphasize that stores should retain mask mandates because of the presence of unvaccinated people (that would also generate social pressure on unvaccinated people to get vaccinated), but I'm sure that it'd be hard for the CDC to get that part of the message to stick.

Part of my concern is that businesses will be forced to unmask by the anti vax/anti mask mobs and then where will we be? I have another concern but it's political. Today I'm not feeling up to politics (me and my tendency to overreact when tired and I got little sleep last night) so the rest of the explanation will have to wait. (Hint, look up what's happening to CA's governor and how this could affect that.).

[Rumpy]

Managed to secure my two appointments today. First dose (Pfizer, yay!) is next month, my second one is in September.

[Scuzz]

Who knows when California will remove the mask mandate. Without a way to show vaccination on your phone, that guidance is dead in the water here.

Confused. Do Californians get vaccinations cards? How does this relate to your phone? Wondering...

As a Californian I have a card showing i have been vaccinated.

[El Guapo]

Who knows when California will remove the mask mandate. Without a way to show vaccination on your phone, that guidance is dead in the water here.

Confused. Do Californians get vaccinations cards? How does this relate to your phone? Wondering...

As a Californian I have a card showing i have been vaccinated.

As do I. Doesn't everyone get a card showing their vaccinations? Not that that's worth a ton (would be easy to counterfeit, as we've discussed) but I thought everyone got one.

[Smoove_B]

That's where the "pass" comes in. Having a card isn't enough - because it's easily faked. An actual vaccination card is already tied to an electronic database - one that can be quickly accessed by someone to verify your status. The rub is whether or not it can (or should) happen.

In other words, get this app that we can ping to verify your status or give us access to your vaccination history so we can verify your status.

[El Guapo]

That's where the "pass" comes in. Having a card isn't enough - because it's easily faked. An actual vaccination card is already tied to an electronic database - one that can be quickly accessed by someone to verify your status. The rub is whether or not it can (or should) happen.

It would be really nice if we didn't have a significant portion of the population (and most of one of the major political parties) trying to sabotage all our efforts to get through this.

[jztemple2]

I guess as a Floridian this discussion wasn’t as relevant since by the governor’s decree it is illegal to deny someone access to businesses due to vaccination status. Are other states able to do this, prohibit access due to vaccination status?

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Managed to secure my two appointments today. First dose (Pfizer, yay!) is next month, my second one is in September.

Isn't that much farther apart than recommended? I thought Pfizer was something like 3 weeks +/- 5 days. Has that recommendation changed?

[El Guapo]

I guess as a Floridian this discussion wasn’t as relevant since by the governor’s decree it is illegal to deny someone access to businesses due to vaccination status. Are other states able to do this, prohibit access due to vaccination status?

Well, in general private businesses can decline to provide services to anyone for any reason other than race / sex / etc. So yes. However, I am sure that at least some other states will follow Florida's lead and similarly prohibit doing so (I also wonder whether there will be lawsuits over such prohibitions).

[El Guapo]

Managed to secure my two appointments today. First dose (Pfizer, yay!) is next month, my second one is in September.

Isn't that much farther apart than recommended? I thought Pfizer was something like 3 weeks +/- 5 days. Has that recommendation changed?

I believe that Canada (and some other countries) with limited vaccine supply have prioritized getting as many first shots in as possible (since those give some protection) and so are stretching out the time between doses.

[Daehawk]

Pfizer is 21 days. Got mine on time. No side effects other than sore arms.

I still remember getting my shots as a toddler or small child...think I was about 4 years old maybe. My arms were both too sore to lift and had fevers in them. My grandma rocked me in her big comfy rocking chair for hours.

[Rumpy]

Managed to secure my two appointments today. First dose (Pfizer, yay!) is next month, my second one is in September.

Isn't that much farther apart than recommended? I thought Pfizer was something like 3 weeks +/- 5 days. Has that recommendation changed?

For other parts of the world, maybe, but as has been pointed out before, Canada has had to stretch its available supply, which is why we've been so slow in rolling out doses. What has originally been meant for second doses are now going to more people as first doses. It's the way it is up here.

[ImLawBoy]

I've also heard that it's better to have the second shot later than too early.

[stessier]

I guess as a Floridian this discussion wasn’t as relevant since by the governor’s decree it is illegal to deny someone access to businesses due to vaccination status. Are other states able to do this, prohibit access due to vaccination status?

Well, in general private businesses can decline to provide services to anyone for any reason other than race / sex / etc. So yes. However, I am sure that at least some other states will follow Florida's lead and similarly prohibit doing so (I also wonder whether there will be lawsuits over such prohibitions).

South Carolina has already followed Florida. I, too, wonder if they can legally prevent businesses from doing so by executive order. Do you think it would matter if it was a statute?

[coopasonic]

14yo scheduled for his first shot tomorrow. He's going to be so excited. Seriously.

[El Guapo]

My daughter (who will turn 12 in July) is very eager to get the shot, to the point where she's suggested that we just lie about her age (which I declined to do). Interesting in part because she's normally very shot averse. I think a lot of it is peer pressure / FOMO effect since all of her friends are now getting vaccinated.

[Rumpy]

I've also heard that it's better to have the second shot later than too early.

True, and it's a careful balanced that I'm sure was weighed. Anyhow, C'est la vie!

Demand is far out-stripping supply at this point. Some who have administered the vaccine have reported that they barely have enough of it left before the next shipments arrive. That's cutting it fairly close.

[Zarathud]

My daughter (who will turn 12 in July) is very eager to get the shot, to the point where she's suggested that we just lie about her age (which I declined to do). Interesting in part because she's normally very shot averse. I think a lot of it is peer pressure / FOMO effect since all of her friends are now getting vaccinated.

Our youngest turns 12 in August. The temptation to sneak her in for a vaccine is very high.

[Max Peck]

The Canadian federal government has laid out a big-picture roadmap back to quasi-normality in terms of relaxing public health restrictions.

Partially vaccinated Canadians can socialize outdoors this summer, Tam says

Canadians who have been vaccinated with one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine can socialize with close family and friends outdoors over the summer months, Canada's chief public health officer said today.

With the vaccine supply ramping up, virtually all Canadians will have access to at least one vaccine dose by June. Dr. Theresa Tam said that extra layer of protection will allow some of the more stringent social distancing measures to be relaxed — but Canadians must continue to avoid indoor gatherings altogether until more people are fully vaccinated.

Tam said a more social summer will depend on Canadians staying apart for the rest of the spring. The case count is still too high and vaccination coverage too low to do away with public health measures right now, she said. Even partially vaccinated people should stay away from others until there is broader vaccine coverage in the weeks ahead.

Tam said provinces should begin to lift public health restrictions only once 75 per cent of all adults have had at least one vaccine dose and 20 per cent are fully vaccinated. As of Friday, 50 per cent of Canadian adults have had one shot.

After reaching that 75 per cent milestone, she said, Canadians can safely enjoy camping, hiking, picnics, small backyard BBQs and drinks on a patio.

Tam said the "primary objective" for all levels of government is to create the conditions that permit provinces and territories to slowly ease the lockdowns and stay-at-home orders now in place.

But Canadians should still avoid all crowds, Tam said, and partially vaccinated people should continue to practise social distancing and wear masks in public for the foreseeable future.

While the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has just stated that fully vaccinated Americans can ditch their masks in most settings, Tam said Canada likely will take a more cautious approach.

"I think masks might be the last layer of that multi-layer protection that we will advise people to remove," she said.

The U.S. is much further along in fully vaccinating its adult population; about 45 per cent of American adults have had two doses, compared to fewer than 4 per cent of all Canadians. Canada has delayed second doses by up to 16 weeks to give more people at least some level of antibody protection against COVID-19.

A U.K. study published Thursday suggests that waiting up to 12 weeks between first and second Pfizer doses could actually be beneficial.

A study led by the University of Birmingham in collaboration with Public Health England found that antibodies against the virus were three-and-a-half times higher in those who had the second shot after three months compared with those who had it after a three-week interval.

[coopasonic]

My daughter (who will turn 12 in July) is very eager to get the shot, to the point where she's suggested that we just lie about her age (which I declined to do). Interesting in part because she's normally very shot averse. I think a lot of it is peer pressure / FOMO effect since all of her friends are now getting vaccinated.

Our youngest turns 12 in August. The temptation to sneak her in for a vaccine is very high.

Around here they are asking for passports/birth certificates so lying isn't really flying. For the record, my youngest turns 12 in September.

[El Guapo]

My daughter (who will turn 12 in July) is very eager to get the shot, to the point where she's suggested that we just lie about her age (which I declined to do). Interesting in part because she's normally very shot averse. I think a lot of it is peer pressure / FOMO effect since all of her friends are now getting vaccinated.

Our youngest turns 12 in August. The temptation to sneak her in for a vaccine is very high.

The flipside is that there's probably not a huge need to get her vaccinated urgently since (as the youngest in her class) all of her classmates are getting vaccinated (and all of her teachers already are). That plus the neighborhood we live in means that pretty soon she's going to be interacting with very few people who aren't vaccinated.

[Kraken]

I've also heard that it's better to have the second shot later than too early.

By September, those who were the first to be vaccinated will probably be getting boosters. I know Moderna is already testing three different versions -- another shot of the original vaccine, a shot of one optimized for variants, or a mixture of the two.

[Blackhawk]

An actual vaccination card is already tied to an electronic database - one that can be quickly accessed by someone to verify your status.

Interesting. Shortly after the vaccinations started I'd read that there wasn't any central record, that each state/whatever was handling that locally, and that some didn't have a record at all.

/edit - like this.

The U.S. has no central database for immunizations. States maintain an incomplete patchwork of records.

...

The cards themselves are a patchwork of formats. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has designed a version, which many locations use, but it isn’t required. State and local authorities and even individual sites are devising their own cards to hand out. With no official standard, it may be hard to say what constitutes proof.

[hitbyambulance]

first shot was way worse for both of my parents - dad got the gout (no kidding) and mom's arthritis flared up in all of her affected joints. second was just a sore arm for a day.

turns out my mom also got a shingles outbreak after COVID-19 vaccination. this is _after_ receiving the Shingrix vaccine some years ago.

[Alefroth]

I've also heard that it's better to have the second shot later than too early.

And now there is a study showing much later could be even better.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... s-immunity

Good news for Canadian Pfizer recipients?

[LawBeefaroni]

I don't understand the problem. If you are vaccinated, you will be fine and have a very, very low risk of spreading anything you might catch and not know about. Everyone else has made their bed and can sleep in it.

If that bed they're sleeping in is a hospital bed on a COVID ward, we all get to pay for the burden of their bad choices.

[El Guapo]

I don't understand the problem. If you are vaccinated, you will be fine and have a very, very low risk of spreading anything you might catch and not know about. Everyone else has made their bed and can sleep in it.

If that bed they're sleeping in is a hospital bed on a COVID ward, we all get to pay for the burden of their bad choices.

The financial cost of that hospital bed is immaterial for society, though. The spread across society is what matters.

[Daehawk]

They asked and reminded me so many times of my 2nd appointment date. They saw SO many cancels and missed ones I think they thought Id chicken out too.

[gbasden]

Nobody enforces vaccination cards because vaccination cards are unenforceable. They're easy to make at home, and aren't backed up by any sort of database. That means that they're pretty much meaningless - anybody can have one that wants one. And any attempt at any means of actually confirming vaccinations is instantly attacked as a "lib conspiracy" and is shut down.

At least in California, there absolutely is a database. Every vaccination is sent to the state and recorded, and is available for lookup by medical professionals. If there was political will, that could be turned into a proof of vaccination app, but it probably won't be because we live in the stupidest timeline.

[Blackhawk]

I agree. Some states have done a good job. Unfortunately, the issues are national.

[Daehawk]

I always like hearing about Hawaii . They try to stay safe.

[Smoove_B]

Interesting. Shortly after the vaccinations started I'd read that there wasn't any central record, that each state/whatever was handling that locally, and that some didn't have a record at all.

I know I shouldn't be surprised that there are states doing nothing, but I kinda am.

In a perfect world all vaccination records go to the state - communicated from both private clinics (like a pharmacy chain) and the mass vaccination sites (which would be run by county or regional public health employees).

So it's true - there isn't a United States level vaccination database, but there could be. Created by lowest bidder, I'm sure.

But each state? If you live in a state that isn't keeping track of your vaccination status? I don't even know how to respond to that....but it makes me uncomfortable; those people are being failed.