Treading lightly while looking about cautiously...

[coopasonic]

Creating my own thread to spread the relationship fun.

Some background info from prior posts:

I've the done the math here as well and it poses a similar barrier. She works 3 days a week and would want primary custody of the kids. On the plus side, Texas does some things to control punitive divorce agreements. They have a standard calculation for child support and spousal support is limited to 3 years. On the negative side, it would be a challenge for my wife to keep the house on those terms without working full time and she couldn't handle the kids if she had to work full time. I would be living on a shoestring budget for 3 years, but I can do that, even in this ridiculous local market. Small apartments aren't THAT bad, though it would be a challenge after 15 years as a homeowner. We've been living as roommates for years now, so maybe we could just continue that way. I'd just have to move to the guest bedroom. Alternately, she could move in with her mom that only lives 1.5 miles away, but that would be a change in schools and she doesn't want that.

The other option would be to split the kids up. It would save her sanity to only have to manage one kid on a day to day basis, but then I wouldn't be able to live nearly as cheaply. Also, she would never go for that. Even in considering divorce I am trying to make things easier for my wife. She just doesn't ever see it. She can't do this without me, but she won't let me have the things that would give me any happiness.

This all started with me thinking about what I am getting out of this marriage... help raising the kids is all I could come up with. She gets that and financial stability.

Sorry for the derail PG, this started with the intent commiserating on the compromises and costs of divorce and kind of got away from me.

A little followup on the "send an email" suggestion. If you are going to send an email and you are both going to be at work all day, don't send the "we need to talk about our relationship" email at 10am. On the plus side, there will definitely be a conversation this evening.

We talked for about 4 hours (9:30-11:30p and 2-4a *yawn*) and other than me delivering my (softened) problem statement, we didn't get anywhere. Partially because I am not good at communicating, partially because she was so freaked out it scared me and partially because I was afraid to really put myself out there.

At the risk of putting Skinypupy over the edge, begin with the end in mind. Before the conversation starts mentally know what you're looking to accomplish by having the discussion. Then, carefully navigate there. Good luck man.

I thought I knew the end goal, but lost my way. Nothing is as easy as it seems.

=====

I told her I loved her but wasn't in love with her. This hit her hard and I tried to soften it by saying I don't even know what love is, which was true. Emotion isn't really my strong suit. In response to this she asked if I missed her when she was away, if I thought about her when we were apart. I had a hard time answering this because at this point I knew how freaked out she was and the truth would make it worse and is complicated.

She asked if there was someone else and I said I wasn't cheating or having an affair... because in a way there is someone else, but not. This is the hard part and why I am really in this mess. There is someone very special to me, but even if she were single it probably still wouldn't happen. It could be a grass is greener/honeymoon effect thing. What it has shown me though, is that there are women out there that I have a lot in common with that are interested in me as well. This is something I hadn't ever really considered. I don't want to say I settled because that is cruel, but I had a very limited set of experiences and interactions at the time I met the woman who would become my wife.

One of my friends asked me what my ideal end state would be and I haven't been able to answer that question (other than with the impossible). I don't want to break my wife's heart. I don't want to ruin my children's lives. Given my social anxiety (and age) it seems unlikely I would even meet anyone that checks all the boxes so to speak, but I can't help wondering if maybe I would.

Is this what they call a mid-life crisis?

[Grifman]

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes? Because there is a Mrs. Impossible out there (who is impossible)? Because you think there might be someone else out there that does check your boxes? I just want to be clear on your reasoning.

[GreenGoo]

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes? Because there is a Mrs. Impossible out there (who is impossible)? Because you think there might be someone else out there that does check your boxes? I just want to be clear on your reasoning.

Any boxes would be nice.

But really, coop has put a lot of information on the forums, not just this thread, so it's not as simple as you're inferring. Personally I prefer we not take a judgmental tone as a jumping off point, even if coop hasn't fully communicated the situation.

[Smoove_B]

I thought I knew the end goal, but lost my way. Nothing is as easy as it seems.

Sometimes it's just about saying what's on your mind - and making sure you're heard. You can't really anticipate how that will be interpreted or predict what the outcome will be, but at least you said what you needed to say (or started the conversation). So that's something.

Is this what they call a mid-life crisis?

Sounds like you're currently adrift and need to figure out how best to get back on solid ground. I would think if you're honest, no one can fault you for that. You're not trying to be hurtful or malicious, just communicating that the current arrangement isn't working for you. Perhaps it can be addressed, but maybe not.

Good luck to you and your family. I'd still buy you a beer if you were local.

[Grifman]

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes? Because there is a Mrs. Impossible out there (who is impossible)? Because you think there might be someone else out there that does check your boxes? I just want to be clear on your reasoning.

Any boxes would be nice.

But really, coop has put a lot of information on the forums, not just this thread, so it's not as simple as you're inferring. Personally I prefer we not take a judgmental tone as a jumping off point, even if coop hasn't fully communicated the situation.

First off, I couldn't remember all the details. Secondly, I was going by what he said above, or at least how I interpreted it. Thirdly, I was asking these questions so that I would have more facts and not leap to assumptions as you seem to imply I already have. As someone in the prior thread said, it can be helpful to restate what you think the other person is saying so that you can make sure you understand them better. or they can correct you. Lastly, there was nothing judgmental in what I said - especially since it is based on I understood him to say. The emphasis in his post above was on what he was feeling, with little about what his wife was doing or failing to do. Nowhere did I say he was wrong, nor did I condemn him. I just sought more information.

[coopasonic]

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes?

I'd saying seeking to leave her is stronger wording than I would use. Maybe when I went to start the conversation that's what I was really doing, but I have backed off based on the strength of her reaction and emotion. The why of it is true but also an understatement. I guess it depends on the list of boxes we are considering. It's cold but I could treat like I would buying a car or house, there are a list of must haves and a list of nice to haves. There is a significant gap on the nice to haves, and I still don't know what the must haves really are. I think I am still figuring that out.

Off the top of my head:
I need to be able to do things that interest me in what I consider to be a reasonable manner without being made to feel guilt over those interests. This primary means board gaming and video gaming.
I need to have a balance of social interaction and introversion to recharge. Some of that social interaction has to be with my circle of friends.
I need <some words to do with her understanding that when I say we are cash-poor at the moment she understands and acts accordingly> call it financial peace.

Because there is a Mrs. Impossible out there (who is impossible)? Because you think there might be someone else out there that does check your boxes? I just want to be clear on your reasoning.

Mrs. Impossible is the one who made me realize the compromises I was making to my own needs. She has her own issues and they aren't insignificant, so it's not like I think I am going to find the perfect fit out there on the used market. I just know it's possible to find a better fit.

On the plus side, since having the talk last week, she has calmed down quite a bit and we are talking a lot more than we used to.I made it to my first game night of the year on Saturday. She has asked if I would play a game with her. She has stepped back from some of her outside responsibilities to focus on us more. Hell she even cooked a pretty good dinner one night. She's trying really hard to make sure I want to stay around. It feels unbalanced and makes me feel a bit guilty, but it also feels better.

There's still a big gap on the nice to haves, like our lack of common interests and common social circle (our common social circle is basically just her parents, the fox news superfans).

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes? Because there is a Mrs. Impossible out there (who is impossible)? Because you think there might be someone else out there that does check your boxes? I just want to be clear on your reasoning.

Any boxes would be nice.

But really, coop has put a lot of information on the forums, not just this thread, so it's not as simple as you're inferring. Personally I prefer we not take a judgmental tone as a jumping off point, even if coop hasn't fully communicated the situation.

Thanks for that, but it's all fair. I'm airing my dirty laundry to a hive of... well... a few folks that used to have time to play video games and some vagrants that wandered by. I'd like to say that I have thick skin, but I don't really. If it gets too personal for me to handle I can walk away. Isgrimnur is the only one I have to worry about seeing in person and he's generally a positive influence.

[EvilHomer3k]

I tend to agree with GreenGoo. Specifically, the first statement sounds judgemental (even though that isn't your intent).

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes?

If you switch you are to are you it reads more like a clarifying question rather than an assumptive statement.

So are you seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes?

[Isgrimnur]

Isgrimnur is the only one I have to worry about seeing in person and he's generally a positive influence.

Sorry I missed out on the game thing this month. Had an old friend that was back in town and had some hours to kill that was smack dab in the middle of it.

Neither my wife and I like to unload on the other one due to the possibility of upsetting them, but it's something we're going to have to get past, as we need to be the ones that are there to support each other. We've chosen to be there for each other.

When your spouse has become another stressor in your life rather than someone that alleviates it, it is time to evaluate the status quo. While her shifts after your conversation certainly show a willingness to work on it, it's likely a temporary adjustment. You both need to work together to define a new normal. And, from what I'm learning on my own end, sometimes it needs to be an absolutely unequivocal statement as to what you want or need.

[Grifman]

Coop, thanks for clarifying. It was not my intent to come off judgmental, as I said, I was really seeking clarifying information based upon the way I understood what you were saying. Sharing something like this, even if it is to a bunch of anonymous geeks/nerds, takes courage, putting it all out there is not easy. I wish you and your family the best.

[Grifman]

I tend to agree with GreenGoo. Specifically, the first statement sounds judgemental (even though that isn't your intent).

So you are seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes?

If you switch you are to are you it reads more like a clarifying question rather than an assumptive statement.

So are you seeking to leave her because she doesn't check all of your boxes?

Thanks for the guidance. Always helps to have another look at how you say something.

[El Guapo]

Maybe your wife is upset because you were sexting with Isgrimnur.

[Paingod]

While her shifts after your conversation certainly show a willingness to work on it, it's likely a temporary adjustment. You both need to work together to define a new normal. And, from what I'm learning on my own end, sometimes it needs to be an absolutely unequivocal statement as to what you want or need.

I've had my wife put in effort that felt appreciated, but it does only last a few days and she slips back to her comfort zone. The only way to make it more permanent is consistent effort. Establishing clear boundaries can be helpful, but I think that largely depends on the people involved.

There was a time not too long ago when my wife told me that I wasn't meeting her needs for quality time. Flat out, she was unhappy because I wasn't spending enough time on her. I worked to step up my game and made quality time for her a higher priority, but it drifted into my personal priorities and now I end up conflicted. I suppose the next step is to create more firm boundaries where I can safely shift from focus on her and back to focus on myself without upsetting her. Still working on that.

I wish I could say "I'm happy to spend time with you, but need some time for myself every day. Let's plan to devote all the time from 7:30 to 9:30 together, and then each do our own things." Two hours of devoted time each day should be enough, right? I dunno. My wife fluctuates and 1 hour today is fine while 3 hours tomorrow is needed.

I'd love to say "Saturday is all about you. I'll watch after the kids if you want to go out and do something for yourself, or I'll spend all day with you in family activities. Sunday could be about me - and I'll gladly run family activities for half the day - but I need to be able to decompress and get out with my friends for a few hours."... but again, I can't set up schedules; maybe you can?

[LawBeefaroni]

She asked if there was someone else and I said I wasn't cheating or having an affair... because in a way there is someone else, but not. This is the hard part and why I am really in this mess. There is someone very special to me, but even if she were single it probably still wouldn't happen. It could be a grass is greener/honeymoon effect thing. What it has shown me though, is that there are women out there that I have a lot in common with that are interested in me as well. This is something I hadn't ever really considered. I don't want to say I settled because that is cruel, but I had a very limited set of experiences and interactions at the time I met the woman who would become my wife.

Everyone has these moments of doubt/what-if. The only difference between someone with "limited experience" and someone with a lot of experience is that the limited ones think they have a more valid excuse. There's no magic number where you say, "Ok, I've had enough, I'm done looking." Also, women are more interested in you because you aren't technically available. They can play what-if without actually having to deal with the long term consequences. Kind of like what you're doing. Be friends, spend time with them, have fun (but not that kind of fun), but don't fool yourself into thinking they are the path to happiness.

Is this what they call a mid-life crisis?

Yes.

Off the top of my head:
I need to be able to do things that interest me in what I consider to be a reasonable manner without being made to feel guilt over those interests. This primary means board gaming and video gaming.

Of course. Some guys have a garage, some guys have golf, some guys have the computer room and hepcat's dining room. The thing is, you have to sell it, you can't just demand it. It might mean sending her to the spa one Saturday so you can go gaming the next. Come out of a marathon session grateful, accommodating, and happy, even if you have to force yourself to stop thinking about the game. Don't come out acting like you have to play just. One. More. Turn...

I need to have a balance of social interaction and introversion to recharge. Some of that social interaction has to be with my circle of friends.

Of course, again. See above. See if you can introduce her to your friends though. Make some of the social interactions include her.

I need <some words to do with her understanding that when I say we are cash-poor at the moment she understands and acts accordingly> call it financial peace.

That's a tough one. Separate spending account for her maybe?

[hepcat]

I'm sorry to read about all this. I've avoided marriage simply because I don't believe I have what it takes to make one work. I watched my parents go through a nasty, nasty divorce, and I don't think I could do that. Having the police arrive at your doorstep and take your father away because he was yelling at your mother from the street after she announced her intention to leave was hard enough. Having the police confiscate your father's belt during booking because they don't want inmates hanging themselves was devastating (I really hope that not all cops like to announce such things in front of a man's 10 year old son).

As I grew older, I saw my friend's go through divorces. Sometimes amicably, oftentimes not. Any thoughts I had that I could beat the odds and make one work were diminished even further by these events.

So I have nothing to contribute beyond this: your children come first. No matter what happens, you try to keep them from losing faith in the ability of humans to love one another. Try as hard as humanly possible to keep things civil.

For their sake, if nothing else.

[EvilHomer3k]

Hepcat,
My mother went through three nasty divorces with lots of screaming while I was growing up. She has been happily cohabitating with my "dad" (they never married) for nearly 30 years.

I never wanted a nasty divorce. I married and got divorced within a year to my first wife. It was very amiable. We never fought. Not once. She just decided she didn't want to be married. She's still not married. I have been very happily married for almost 14 years now. My wife and I rarely get into discussions and have never yelled at each other. We just don't. We do have silence contests sometimes, though.

Anyway, just because your parents marriage didn't work out doesn't mean yours wont.

Coop, I hope things work out for you. Everyone's relationship is different. The best advice I can give (which has already been given) is to keep working at it. Find the things you enjoy doing with your wife and try to do them. Make some time for yourself and for her to do things the other doesn't. Try to find the things you appreciate about her and focus on those when you can. It sounds like she is willing to work things out and to try to make changes. That's a big thing and you are lucky that that is the case.

Thank you for helping me to appreciate what I have as well. Sometimes we all forget how good we have it.

[FishPants]

On the plus side, since having the talk last week, she has calmed down quite a bit and we are talking a lot more than we used to.I made it to my first game night of the year on Saturday. She has asked if I would play a game with her. She has stepped back from some of her outside responsibilities to focus on us more. Hell she even cooked a pretty good dinner one night. She's trying really hard to make sure I want to stay around. It feels unbalanced and makes me feel a bit guilty, but it also feels better.

There's still a big gap on the nice to haves, like our lack of common interests and common social circle (our common social circle is basically just her parents, the fox news superfans).

Dude it's because she loves you and doesn't want to end up in a divorce and lose you. This is important, and this should be one of your checkboxes. She's even trying to be involved in your interests by asking if you would play a board game with her. That's pretty fucking cool on her part. Just make sure this is meeting in the middle and not one sided, you can't keep withdrawing from an emotional bank and expect there to be unlimited funds (By the way, payday is in pennies, and purchases are in dollars for that analogy).

It sounds like your wife heard you loud and clear, and has decided she's not going down without trying her hardest. I hope you are doing the same, because the grass often isn't greener out there -- unless the reality is you'd rather be alone than with her, I don't see a reason to nix it when she's listening and trying.

As for common interests, my wife and I have very little in common -- but that isn't a source of friction. Granted we've got two cute little girls that involve a lot of our time, but when we do get a break it's typically done like this:

1. Bottle of wine opened, share it and talk/catch up on what's happening. This is often her venting about work (not something I often do, nor am I particularly interested in her line of work.. She's in sales, sales stuff annoys me.. but it's my wife, and I listen).
2. Maybe watch a show together that we both like (This happens rarely, currently the only show on TV we both like is the Good Wife -- irony in this thread I get it).
3. I go study (doing my masters) she watches crappy reality TV, talks to friends/family on the phone whatever. Maybe I play the playstation or whatever.
4. We go to bed together.

That's a usual "day" for us.. I bought a boat which has surprisingly been the best thing for my family in the summers, gets us out -- she grew up in a fairly poor family (as did I, but she did it in cottage country) - so she's quietly admitted that when she was a kid she was really envious of the "super rich" people that would take their boat through the lakes and into town, where they'd dock and have lunch. As soon as she confided in me that this was something she always envied, I made it a priority to take the family up there and do just that.

I guess what I'm getting at in that story is there's got to be communication and there's got to be middle ground. I bought a boat because I wanted to fish, but all of that became irrelevant when she told me about her childhood envy. I changed plans, and we had a blast with the kids and family as a result. Was I able to fish and do what I wanted to do? Nope. Did she want me spending the money on a boat? HELL NO. Yet we made it work.

Anyhow best of luck, but really it sounds like you've got a pretty good opportunity to tune up your marriage and get your heads back into it. Go on a date with your woman, when was the last time you did that? I recently took my wife to Game 5 of the Jays game out of the blue, and it had to be one of the best dates we've ever had -- doesn't happen often with our schedules, but it happens and is necessary; otherwise you end up in a daily grind and it's easy to start overlooking the other person that at some point or another you were in love with.

[xwraith]

Just one thought. If she has done something like make dinner, etc. Do a little something back: flowers, candy... Something to show appreciation.

[Daehawk]

I dont understand why you got married in the first place. Sounds like you want to be like my friend, a confirmed life long bachelor.

[GreenGoo]

Sorry, I've only got energy for 1 relationship collapse thread at a time.

Good luck.

[coopasonic]

Sorry, I've only got energy for 1 relationship collapse thread at a time.

Good luck.

My relationship isn't collapsing. It appears that it wanted to collapse but is now regenerating.

I dont understand why you got married in the first place. Sounds like you want to be like my friend, a confirmed life long bachelor.

I am not sure either. Because it's what people do? Because I wanted something different? Because it felt like winning something? I think I would be fine as a career bachelor, but getting married has led to a lot of good things in my life and I'm not sure I would want to give them all back.

Just one thought. If she has done something like make dinner, etc. Do a little something back: flowers, candy... Something to show appreciation.

That's always been a problem for me. I have my moments but generally I am not a very thoughtful guy, particularly when it comes to knowing what people appreciate and why. I see most of that as unnecessary nonsense, you know along with small talk. Expressing thanks, sure, but cards and flowers and candy always seemed wrong.

...lots of stuff...

My wife stopped complaining about work, because I wasn't any good at listening. I want to solve problems not commiserate. Sympathy isn't my strong suit.

I was honestly surprised how much she wanted to keep us together.

[EvilHomer3k]

My wife stopped complaining about work, because I wasn't any good at listening. I want to solve problems not commiserate. Sympathy isn't my strong suit.

I was honestly surprised how much she wanted to keep us together.

I'm not great at sympathy either. Very little bothers me enough to talk to someone about it. If I talk with someone it's because there's a problem and I want to talk through it to find solutions. I do understand that it's something my wife needs to do. I listen, agree with here (or offer another opinion), and sometimes offer solutions I know will never be implemented (such as writing people up for something when they continue to do things she has told them not to do). I'll do most of it while making supper or surfing on the computer but I'll give her some undivided attention each time even if it's nothing major. You don't really have to sympathize with everything just that they feel the need to talk to someone about it.

[Paingod]

I was honestly surprised how much she wanted to keep us together.

Just because something has been neglected and left outside for a while doesn't mean it's not valuable. It sounds like maybe you just needed to dust things off and get a layer of polish back on there.

[LawBeefaroni]

That's always been a problem for me. I have my moments but generally I am not a very thoughtful guy, particularly when it comes to knowing what people appreciate and why. I see most of that as unnecessary nonsense, you know along with small talk. Expressing thanks, sure, but cards and flowers and candy always seemed wrong.

It's learned. 10 minutes into an RPG you can figure out what a character wants. It's not that much harder in real life, especially when they tell you (if they tell you). It really is the thought that counts, though getting it right helps a lot too.

[Jeff V]

That's always been a problem for me. I have my moments but generally I am not a very thoughtful guy, particularly when it comes to knowing what people appreciate and why. I see most of that as unnecessary nonsense, you know along with small talk. Expressing thanks, sure, but cards and flowers and candy always seemed wrong.

It's learned. 10 minutes into an RPG you can figure out what a character wants. It's not that much harder in real life, especially when they tell you (if they tell you). It really is the thought that counts, though getting it right helps a lot too.

I like to think I'm more creative and clever when it comes to such things, but it seems much of it gets quickly forgotten and what is remembered is that I didn't bring flowers (or whatever is mundane for the occasion).

BTW, it helps in the long run to cultivate your image in the eyes of her friends/family acquaintances. While the creative things I do aren't necessarily remembered by her, she tells people and they remember it...and remind her I'm not the shit she is railing about when she gets pissed for whatever crazy reason. She's convinced I've subverted all of her family and friends...during her last blow up, she even quit Facebook for several weeks because she was getting no sympathy from anyone.

[Paingod]

she even quit Facebook for several weeks because she was getting no sympathy from anyone.

A serious case of "If everyone around you disagrees, maybe it's you being disagreeable?"

Doesn't help that you stand just behind her and off to the left making a silly face and the cuckoo finger gesture while pointing at her.

[EvilHomer3k]

Expressing thanks, sure, but cards and flowers and candy always seemed wrong.

Cards, flowers, and candy are unnecessary. They're a waste of money. But not in her (or my wife's eyes). I have a recurring appointment set up to remind me to get flowers. I stop at the grocery store and buy them because Google tells me to. I have vases at home. I buy the ones that cost about $10 and then take them home and put them in the vase. If it weren't for calendar reminders I'd almost never buy them.

Now, I will get her things on Amazon (books, mostly) or get a bottle of her favorite wine without google's help. If I see a new Stephen King book I almost always order it. Of course Amazon now lets me know when one comes out so that helps.

[LordMortis]

My relationship isn't collapsing. It appears that it wanted to collapse but is now regenerating.

Your world view sounds a lot like me and there was no regenerating my marriage. So thumbs up to you and yours.

[Jeff V]

she even quit Facebook for several weeks because she was getting no sympathy from anyone.

A serious case of "If everyone around you disagrees, maybe it's you being disagreeable?"

Doesn't help that you stand just behind her and off to the left making a silly face and the cuckoo finger gesture while pointing at her.

I think they know her history better than I do and know her crazy is more likely at fault than me inexplicably doing things I'm accused of doing just to piss her off. Earlier this year, in one of her fits of crazy, I was forced to unfriend all of her friends, among the reasons were her suspecting some of them were plotting to steal me from her. She seems to have forgotten that unfriending these people (about 70 of her family and friends) was my solution to her outburst -- the other day, she told me one of her friends ran off with a boy toy and left her husband, an American who has been unable to bring her here, holding the bag. She was hoping I'd get more information from him (who I'd met and would talk to on FB from time to time before the Great Unfriending) and seemed surprised when I told her we weren't friends anymore. (I am, incidentally, friends with his EX, who didn't know anything about this drama when I asked her yesterday).

[Kraken]

I dont understand why you got married in the first place. Sounds like you want to be like my friend, a confirmed life long bachelor.

I am not sure either. Because it's what people do? Because I wanted something different? Because it felt like winning something? I think I would be fine as a career bachelor, but getting married has led to a lot of good things in my life and I'm not sure I would want to give them all back.

One of my favorite cartoons shows a couple at the altar. The groom's thought balloon says "Now I can have sex whenever I want" and the bride's says "Now I never have to have sex again."