Octopus Overlords

Kipper supposedly has McCarthy as his #5 QB. While he is probably the best QB Michigan has had in many years I find it hard to believe he is top 5 at the position.

Congrats to Michigan and its fans. My grandfather would love this.

Next year these teams are in the same conference.

Penix had an awful game and the Michigan db's made some fantastic plays getting off of blocks on the wr screens that could have gone a long way. Congrats Lawboy!

Well Jim Harbaugh is in the clubhouse with a national championship under his belt. Now can brother John hold up his end of the deal?

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 6:35 pm Keys for Michigan:
Keep Penix under pressure.

A crap ton of pressure.

That was pretty dominant. It's good to see Michigan as a real powerhouse again.

I was right!

The team with the most points won!

Go Blue!

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:00 am I was right!

The team with the most points won!

Go Blue!

Worst attempt at gloating I have ever seen.

Gotta be rough to get that national title with an asterisk next to the season.

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:37 am Gotta be rough to get that national title with an asterisk next to the season.

Not at all! Only petty rivals and people who don't know ball are concerned about it!

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:50 am

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:37 am Gotta be rough to get that national title with an asterisk next to the season.

Not at all! Only petty rivals and people who don't know ball are concerned about it!

Well sure, not as a rabid Michigan fan - nothing is beyond them, I mean as a player who will look back and always see that asterisk next to their season. I honestly feel bad for the players who are all obviously talented enough to win without the cloud of this cheating scandal that suspended their coach for several games.

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:53 am

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:50 am

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:37 am Gotta be rough to get that national title with an asterisk next to the season.

Not at all! Only petty rivals and people who don't know ball are concerned about it!

Well sure, not as a rabid Michigan fan - nothing is beyond them, I mean as a player who will look back and always see that asterisk next to their season. I honestly feel bad for the players who are all obviously talented enough to win without the cloud of this cheating scandal that suspended their coach for several games.

The asterisk will only apply to petty rivals and people who don't know ball. The players all know that it had nothing to do with going undefeated and winning the national championship, so they won't see an asterisk any more than, say, players from the 2010 Auburn team.

I dunno. You really think they would go to all the trouble of scouting teams before games because it has nothing to do with winning games?

How many times do we have to do this? Sign stealing is legal. Other teams had Michigan's signs. The only violation is advanced in-person scouting. Michigan could have obtained other teams' signs by a legit method if Stalions hadn't been such a weirdo and cooked up his scheme.

The most hyperbolic pearl clutching I've seen (present company excluded) is that knowing another team's signs is worth 21 points per game. I think that's absurd, but taking that at face value (and assuming that the other teams didn't have Michigan signs, which is a big assumption), Michigan won all of its games before the scandal came out by more than 21 points. If the opponents after the scandal broke didn't change things up, that's on them. So, no, I don't think that sign stealing had any effect on Michigan's wins.

Congratulations on the title, ImLawBoy. Nice to see the most level-headed and objective fan of college football on these forums get a title to enjoy. But I knew it was coming the day Michigan signed Harbaugh. I think I was more excited than you were on that day!

I also agree that the "Cheating Scandal" is only a scandal to non-football fans and those who hate Michigan. Stealing signs has always been a tactic against teams with lazy coaching staffs and it will continue into the future. It's also true that many teams (Like the aforementioned 2010 Auburn TIgers) had "issues" during their Championship season that have long been interred with the bones. So let it be with Michigan!

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:50 am

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:37 am Gotta be rough to get that national title with an asterisk next to the season.

Not at all! Only petty rivals and people who don't know ball are concerned about it!

Welcome to SEC football

Apollo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:50 pm Congratulations on the title, ImLawBoy. Nice to see the most level-headed and objective fan of college football on these forums get a title to enjoy.

Scanning for sarcasm . . . .

Ah, heck. I'm OK with it even if you are being sarcastic! While I do try to be level headed and objective, I'm also a fan. Level headedness and objectivity do not usually go hand-in-hand with fandom. I strive to be up front about my biases at least!

As for the game itself, it's deserving of some commentary, I think. As anticipated, Michigan ran often and effectively. Donovan Edwards flashed his 2022 form on two big first quarter TD runs, and the final tally was 303 yards rushing at 8 yards per carry. The passing game wasn't asked to do too much, but it did enough.

The biggest surprise was how effectively Michigan shut down Washington's high-powered passing game. I didn't think Washington would have much success running (and they didn't), but I figured Penix and those receivers would be able to put up more points. Michigan's pass rush just overwhelmed them, though. There was only one sack, but Penix was getting pounded and usually just with rushing four. He looked to be in significant pain by the end of the game. Turns out the Michigan defense wasn't just a product of facing Big Ten offenses, I guess.

Rematch in Seattle in October as these storied Big Ten programs face off again, but I imagine things will be quite different then. I don't know as much about Washington, but at least Penix and I think the top 2 receivers are off to the NFL. On the Michigan side, I won't be surprised if Harbaugh finally goes to the NFL. He's 60, so he might see this as his last chance. On the other hand, he could sign the massive contract Michigan has in front of him. He's an enigma. If he does go, I suspect Sherrone Moore will get his chance. He's proven he can handle game days (although maybe not the post game interviews), so it's really a question of whether he can run an entire program. I like his odds. Corum is off to the NFL, and I suspect Edwards will go too. McCarthy is probably gone, although he might improve his stock a bit by staying (or even by transferring to a more pass happy program). It'll also be interesting to see how many players go to the portal now that the season is over.

Go Blue!

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:49 pm

Apollo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:50 pm Congratulations on the title, ImLawBoy. Nice to see the most level-headed and objective fan of college football on these forums get a title to enjoy.

Scanning for sarcasm . . . .

No sarcasm intended as my sentiments were genuine. Just take the compliment and deal with it, mmkay?

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:37 am Gotta be rough to get that national title with an asterisk next to the season.

Lots of schools claim national titles with asterisks after them.

Penix wasn’t regular season Penix against Michigan. Whether it was the Michigan pass rush or something else. His passes were high almost all night and he missed so many open receivers.

I don’t just blow off the sign stealing scandal, but I do think Michigan was the better team. Harbaugh is just such a ….., but then so are most big time successful coaches.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:23 pm I don’t just blow off the sign stealing scandal

There's a difference between blowing it off and blowing it out of proportion. The way Stalions went about his scheme was against the rules, but stealing signs generally is common and permitted under the rules. The reality is that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Michigan's wins this year were materially aided by advance in-person scouting.

The NCAA is ridiculous. As I have pointed out before, why in the world is signaling plays still a thing in CFB?! It's the second most popular TV sport in the US and we still can't afford mics/speakers in helmets?! Ridiculous.

Having said that, the ridiculous NCAA isn't done with Harbaugh. I think he won't be back at Michigan (or any other CFB program) . He's either going to get another NFL Head coaching job, quit to avoid the further punishments the NCAA will impose, or both.

Quitting isn't Harbaugh's style. If he doesn't go to the NFL, he'll sign for $10M+ per year with Michigan and deal with the fallout.

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:01 pm

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:23 pm I don’t just blow off the sign stealing scandal

There's a difference between blowing it off and blowing it out of proportion. The way Stalions went about his scheme was against the rules, but stealing signs generally is common and permitted under the rules. The reality is that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Michigan's wins this year were materially aided by advance in-person scouting.

You don’t seem to get the idea that Michigan (and they did suspend Harbaugh and an assistant was fired over this) had some administrative lack of control over this and the simple stealing of signs. They are two different things. Stealing signs is fine, scouting other teams the way they did (perhaps to steal those signs) is not.

I don’t think it made a difference, but having a gun in your pocket while you rob a bank is an added crime, even if you never show it.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 6:39 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:01 pm

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:23 pm I don’t just blow off the sign stealing scandal

There's a difference between blowing it off and blowing it out of proportion. The way Stalions went about his scheme was against the rules, but stealing signs generally is common and permitted under the rules. The reality is that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Michigan's wins this year were materially aided by advance in-person scouting.

You don’t seem to get the idea that Michigan (and they did suspend Harbaugh and an assistant was fired over this) had some administrative lack of control over this and the simple stealing of signs. They are two different things. Stealing signs is fine, scouting other teams the way they did (perhaps to steal those signs) is not.

You don't seem to have any idea of what I get and don't get. I've said all along that Michigan violated the rules and would get some punishment for it. I've acknowledged the NCAA's rules say violations by the team are imputed upon the head coach, regardless of whether the coach knew about it.

But this scandal is just silly. This would have been perfectly legal until the mid-90s, when the rules were changed to prohibit advance in-person scouting for cost savings reasons. A few years back the NCAA considered getting rid of the rule because it provided "minimal competitive advantage". They didn't, so a silly rule remained on the books. Michigan violated that rule, yes. But thus far there has been zero evidence that anyone other than Stalions on staff knew about it, and the Big Ten admitted this when it handed down its suspension. That's important because in imputing the violation to Harbaugh, it would be a lot worse if he were aware of it or sanctioned it, or if it were a concerted effort among multiple members of the staff.

The bottom line is that this is not a major issue. It didn't have a material impact on competition. It's not indicative of a complete lack of institutional control if it's as limited in scope as it appears. The fact that Michigan fired an important coach immediately upon learning that he (allegedly) told some players not to cooperate with the investigation is a good sign (although it would have been better if he hadn't done that in the first place, of course). This is a big deal because the whole thing is so ridiculous and makes a good story, and because Ryan Day is so bent out of shape about losing to Michigan that he pushed the issue (allegedly).

Now, new facts could come out that would indicate that this is worse than I believe. I kind of think that the major facts have all been disclosed by this point, but you never know. If something else comes out, I can reevaluate at the time.

I think if the NCAA does find against Michigan it will be because of Harbaugh’s refusal to talk to them about the previous problem (I don’t even remember what that was). You can’t put yourself above the law no matter what the NCAA rules,

Or firing the assistant was a quick attempt to cover their ass.

But you keep using the past as a defense. It didn’t used to be a no no. That’s not a defense. It’s a bad rationalization. It also doesn’t matter if signs can be “stolen” in legal ways because that isn’t what they have been accused of.

I am beginning to think you might be one of Trump’s lawyers.

Sorry, bad joke.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:32 pm I think if the NCAA does find against Michigan it will be because of Harbaugh’s refusal to talk to them about the previous problem (I don’t even remember what that was). You can’t put yourself above the law no matter what the NCAA rules,

I agree that it is the more serious issue. It wasn't Harbaugh's refusal to talk that was at issue, though. He talked to them, but they didn't believe what he was selling. He said he didn't recall details around paying for cheeseburgers for recruits (or something like that) and the NCAA thinks he's being dishonest.

Scuzz wrote:Or firing the assistant was a quick attempt to cover their ass.

This doesn't make any sense. You fire someone who breaks the rules to set an example.

Scuzz wrote:But you keep using the past as a defense. It didn’t used to be a no no. That’s not a defense. It’s a bad rationalization. It also doesn’t matter if signs can be “stolen” in legal ways because that isn’t what they have been accused of.

I am beginning to think you might be one of Trump’s lawyers.

Sorry, bad joke.

The bad lawyering isn't on my end here. I'm not using the past as a defense. I'm using it as context. Not all rules violations are the same, and I'm using the history of the rule to help demonstrate why this isn't really a big deal. It was instituted for cost savings purposes, and was determined to have minimal competitive value by an NCAA committee. That's part of the consideration for punishment/sentencing, not a defense to having committed the violation.

FWIW, the covid recruiting violations and the sign stealing are level 2 infractions.

It's the lying about them and covering up when he was asked which is the alleged level 1 infraction.

As the fan of a team that sees occasional NCAA infractions as the cost of doing business (Auburn fan here ), I think you guys are overreacting to this situation. Even serious infractions aren't that big of a deal when you have a strong reputation as a football powerhouse and if Harbaugh stays things should go pretty smoothly. I think he'll secretly enjoy having no pressure to win a National Title the first couple years of his new 10 year contract.

On the other hand, I think Harbaugh's off to the NFL where he can finish his career with a title there as well. And if Harbaugh leaves and Michigan gets a serious penalty from the NCAA, I think Michigan football could potentially be in real trouble for a while. But I'm just speculating here as I haven't read anything about Harbaugh or the NCAA's future plans. We'll see.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:03 pm FWIW, the covid recruiting violations and the sign stealing are level 2 infractions.

It's the lying about them and covering up when he was asked which is the alleged level 1 infraction.

Not quite, but close. The COVID recruiting stuff is the Level 2 stuff. The NCAA alleges that Harbaugh was not forthcoming during that investigation, and that's the basis for the Level 1 violation. I have no doubt that Harbaugh has somehow justified to himself why everything he said is fully truthful and not holding anything back, but I'm guessing that justification doesn't translate to a normal mind. Bottom line is that this is more troublesome in a sane world than the sign stealing stuff because if true it shows dishonesty on the part of the head coach during the investigation.

I don't think they've even assigned a level to the sign stealing stuff at this point, although I could be wrong. If they do assign something, I imagine it would come when they issue a notice of allegations, which is still forthcoming. Harbaugh is not alleged at this point to have lied or covered up anything about this element at this point.

Apollo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:03 pm As the fan of a team that sees occasional NCAA infractions as the cost of doing business (Auburn fan here ), I think you guys are overreacting to this situation. Even serious infractions aren't that big of a deal when you have a strong reputation as a football powerhouse and if Harbaugh stays things should go pretty smoothly. I think he'll secretly enjoy having no pressure to win a National Title the first couple years of his new 10 year contract.

Yes and no. The reason I'm more concerned about the dishonesty stuff is because it's in the same general realm as what nailed Jim Tressel at OSU - lying about Tattoogate. I tend to think that anything here is less overt than what happened then, and the times they have a-changed since then, but it's still something to be concerned about.

The Very Cool Things J.J. McCarthy Has Done With His NIL Money

J.J. McCarthy led the Wolverines to the title with a 34-13 victory over the Washington Huskies. The game was at NRG Stadium in Houston. While the Wolverines were in town, McCarthy paid a local hospital a visit. Check out this quote from Michigan radio play-by-play announcer Doug Karsch:

"J.J. takes his NIL money, and he donates it to local children's hospitals in the towns that they play in, and he did it again here for Texas Children's Hospital in Houston."

Earlier this season, On3 reported McCarthy's NIL deals are worth a collective $1.4 million. He's partnered with Dunkin' to feature his own menu item at select Detroit locations. He's also had agreements with Bose and Alo Yoga and has scored multiple deals through Valiant Management. In November, McCarthy joined Tom Brady's BRADY Brand. Before he became a Hall of Fame NFL quarterback, Brady was a Michigan Wolverine.

McCarthy is likely not donating all of that money to hospitals…because he's also supporting his offensive linemen. Michigan offensive lineman Karsen Barnhart said the quarterback has given NIL money to his linemen, a show of support for the group of guys who protect him every game.

Whelp.



We should probably just call it the P2 at this point.

The counter to that is that it might be easier for Big 12 or ACC schools to make the playoff. With the Big 10 and SEC being so top heavy, you'll have a fair amount of cannibalism. Once you're in the playoffs you have a puncher's chance.

Also, keep in mind while stars are important, they're not the be-all, end-all. Michigan and Washington were not exactly loaded with 5 star guys. Michigan's recruiting rankings were certainly decent (in the 10-15 range for the prior 4 years, I think), but they're not up there with Alabama, UGA, and OSU. Moneyball style talent identification (i.e., finding undervalued guys) and development can overcome a lot. That's not to say that the big dogs don't have it easier, but it's not a completely lost cause for the underdogs.

Michigan did not rank in the top 10 in "talent" (4 and 5 star recruits on the team). They were the "least talented" national champion of the playoff era.

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:01 pm The reality is that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Michigan's wins this year were materially aided by advance in-person scouting.

I'd argue that their PSU and OSU wins were largely due by the NCAA sanctions that let Moore run things on sideline.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:00 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:01 pm The reality is that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Michigan's wins this year were materially aided by advance in-person scouting.

I'd argue that their PSU and OSU wins were aided by the NCAA sanctions that let Moore run things on sideline.

Those were Big10 sanctions not NCAA. lol.

Remus West wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:01 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:00 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 3:01 pm The reality is that it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Michigan's wins this year were materially aided by advance in-person scouting.

I'd argue that their PSU and OSU wins were aided by the NCAA sanctions that let Moore run things on sideline.

Those were Big10 sanctions not NCAA. lol.

Even better.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:21 pm Whelp.



We should probably just call it the P2 at this point.

ONe thing I've noticed over the past few years, is that if a big SEC/B1G team is recruiting someone, they spontaneously get additional recruiting stars sometimes, so there's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy in play here.

The moment many have waited for, is apparently happening...Nick Saban is retiring.

Holy shit.