Voting Age: 16

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Unagi
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Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

Just heard about this:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house- ... ing-age-16


I would be behind this. If you are trusted to guide a car safely around your neighborhood and the whole country, your judgment is certainly within 'the realm of reason' and you should be able to direct the future of your country on some level - just like the rest of us.

I have a child that has been paying attention to politics on some level since they were about 9 or 10 (4th/ 5th grade). They were born in 2007 and since they were 10 have listened to Trump as their President...
In November of 2024, they will be 17 years old and unbelievably "ready" and painfully wanting to participate in our elections, but held back.

Not until they are 21 will they have a say in any of it. That is 6 long fucking years to a 15-year-old that is paying attention and wants a voice.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by coopasonic »

Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:50 pm Not until they are 21 will they have a say in any of it. That is 6 long fucking years to a 15-year-old that is paying attention and wants a voice.
18, voting isn't alcohol.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Alefroth »

coopasonic wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:51 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:50 pm Not until they are 21 will they have a say in any of it. That is 6 long fucking years to a 15-year-old that is paying attention and wants a voice.
18, voting isn't alcohol.
He's referring to the next opportunity to vote for President.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by dbt1949 »

When I went in the army I was 19 and couldn't vote. The age then was 21. It always upset those of us who were younger that we couldn't vote but we could die in Vietnam. They changed it to 18 before I got out.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

coopasonic wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:51 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:50 pm Not until they are 21 will they have a say in any of it. That is 6 long fucking years to a 15-year-old that is paying attention and wants a voice.
18, voting isn't alcohol.
OK well I am pretty sure you didn't read what I said at all. Thanks for your reply.

I am saying that 16 is 'vote' appropriate - and you are implying that I suggested 21, from what I got from that. I am saying it sucks that from my kid's accurate perspective - they are been relegated to a 21-year-old voting age. I am not saying that 21 is the age everyone is forced to wait to -- I am pointing out that for some it is.

Then again, I said it perfectly well in my first post if you read more than the very last line.
Last edited by Unagi on Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Pyperkub »

Maybe. One thing it could really help is getting people in the habit of voting while it's easier - not in College, not Working, but rather as part of HS instruction. This way it would be a couple of biannual election cycles usually before Going off to College/Work whatever and most of those processing cycles/habits are under duress.

Could even get local and primary election research and voting habits in place.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

dbt1949 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:01 pm When I went in the army I was 19 and couldn't vote. The age then was 21. It always upset those of us who were younger that we couldn't vote but we could die in Vietnam. They changed it to 18 before I got out.
Yeah, that's 100% complete bullshit.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

Pyperkub wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:41 pm Maybe. One thing it could really help is getting people in the habit of voting while it's easier - not in College, not Working, but rather as part of HS instruction. This way it would be a couple of biannual election cycles usually before Going off to College/Work whatever and most of those processing cycles/habits are under duress.

Could even get local and primary election research and voting habits in place.
It might even get politicians to give a shit beyond the next election cycle, if they had to care about a bunch of dramatic kids that did.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Pyperkub »

Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:58 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:41 pm Maybe. One thing it could really help is getting people in the habit of voting while it's easier - not in College, not Working, but rather as part of HS instruction. This way it would be a couple of biannual election cycles usually before Going off to College/Work whatever and most of those processing cycles/habits are under duress.

Could even get local and primary election research and voting habits in place.
It might even get politicians to give a shit beyond the next election cycle, if they had to care about a bunch of dramatic kids that did.
Rock'n'Rollers too:
Well, I called my congressman
And he said, quote:
"I'd like to help you, son
But you're too young to vote"

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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by coopasonic »

Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:22 pm
coopasonic wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:51 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:50 pm Not until they are 21 will they have a say in any of it. That is 6 long fucking years to a 15-year-old that is paying attention and wants a voice.
18, voting isn't alcohol.
OK well I am pretty sure you didn't read what I said at all. Thanks for your reply.
I read and understood your words, but apparently not your intent. Elections happen a lot more than every 4 years.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Zenn7 »

Pyperkub wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:01 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:58 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:41 pm Maybe. One thing it could really help is getting people in the habit of voting while it's easier - not in College, not Working, but rather as part of HS instruction. This way it would be a couple of biannual election cycles usually before Going off to College/Work whatever and most of those processing cycles/habits are under duress.

Could even get local and primary election research and voting habits in place.
It might even get politicians to give a shit beyond the next election cycle, if they had to care about a bunch of dramatic kids that did.
Rock'n'Rollers too:
Well, I called my congressman
And he said, quote:
"I'd like to help you, son
But you're too young to vote"

Sometimes I wonder
What I'm-a gonna do
But there ain't no cure
For the summertime blues
Country'ers (?) too:

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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Defiant »

Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:50 pm If you are trusted to guide a car safely around your neighborhood and the whole country, your judgment is certainly within 'the realm of reason'
*Looks at MAGA voters who can drive*

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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

coopasonic wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:26 pm Elections happen a lot more than every 4 years.
Not all that much at a Federal level.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Kraken »

FWIW I'd be fine with dropping the age to 16. Republicans, however, would not. Youngsters tend to lean Democratic. Republicans would rather raise the voting age to, oh, let's say 50. :)
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by dbt1949 »

Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:57 pm
dbt1949 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:01 pm When I went in the army I was 19 and couldn't vote. The age then was 21. It always upset those of us who were younger that we couldn't vote but we could die in Vietnam. They changed it to 18 before I got out.
Yeah, that's 100% complete bullshit.
Are you being serious or factious?
It was called the 26th Amendment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-si ... nstitution
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by TheMix »

dbt1949 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:15 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:57 pm
dbt1949 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:01 pm When I went in the army I was 19 and couldn't vote. The age then was 21. It always upset those of us who were younger that we couldn't vote but we could die in Vietnam. They changed it to 18 before I got out.
Yeah, that's 100% complete bullshit.
Are you being serious or factious?
It was called the 26th Amendment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-si ... nstitution
I had the same initial reaction. Then I decided that he was vehemently agreeing with you that it was bullshit that you could die for your country, but not vote.

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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by noxiousdog »

It needs to be 18. That's when we decide minors are adults and responsible for themselves. Before that, they don't have full rights.

If they are responsible, then we need to lower the age at which they go from junvenile to adult courts, and yes I know sometimes they are tried in adult courts, but that's exceptions, not a rule.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

dbt1949 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:15 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:57 pm
dbt1949 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:01 pm When I went in the army I was 19 and couldn't vote. The age then was 21. It always upset those of us who were younger that we couldn't vote but we could die in Vietnam. They changed it to 18 before I got out.
Yeah, that's 100% complete bullshit.
Are you being serious or factious?
It was called the 26th Amendment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-si ... nstitution
You miss-read my reply. I am being serious in that that the county was full of shit for sending kids into a war they had no voice in. I certainly wasn't saying that what you were saying was untrue.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

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I stand corrected. :wink:
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by LawBeefaroni »

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Lowering the already low bar isn't going to save us.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

Yeah. I don’t know if it would solve anything.

What if there was something like signing your kid up for ‘adult’ willingly, where it would default at 18 - but where a parent could both open their child up to adult consequences of the law but they were also then allowed to vote, as young as something like 16.

I mean, I do also have nightmare visions of those families of 10 all standing with the AR15s at Christmas time and realize that little army would all be ‘pulling the wrong lever’
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by YellowKing »

I'm with noxiousdog on this one.

While any age limit is completely arbitrary, we have to draw the line somewhere. The driving age being 16 I think is more out of necessity than anything - kids need a way to get to jobs. And yes, we could bring legal marriage age into the equation, but in almost all states that's only with parental consent. Without parental consent, you're still hitting that magic 18 number.

So with 18 being that line in the sand for almost all aspects of society to be considered an "adult," I don't see a valid reason to change voting age other than political strategerie.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

I guess it really ends up boiling down to: does all adult responsibility come as an all or nothing deal. And if so is 18 where it should all fall. And if not (like driving and employment) all on one date, why the act of voting as serious as ‘intentional criminal behavior’. Not sure how to word that question.
I guess I’m sayin my how horrible is it for a 16 year old to be voting.



Just waving away driving rights/responsibility as a necessity while not saying anything to a 16 year old’s mental capacity to participate in voting seems too dismissive to me.

I don’t think about this as a way to get more Dem votes. If it would that’s great , but really it’s about how legitimately lame it seems for my kid to have such clear thoughts and pretty good understand of thing at 15yo. Easily on par with the average voter. But for their timing of birth they will be watching from the wings until 21 for a voice at the president.

/shrug.
They have arguably the most skin in the game.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

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As always, West Wing made some arguments.

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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Kraken »

Unagi wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:25 pm I guess it really ends up boiling down to: does all adult responsibility come as an all or nothing deal. And if so is 18 where it should all fall.
When I was 17 I was charged with both minor in possession of alcohol and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. C'mon, which is it? At least in that time and place, 17-year-olds were "legally responsible" -- had the duties of an adult without the privileges. (The drinking age was 18 then.)
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

stessier wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:18 pm As always, West Wing made some arguments.

I like it!
Never saw that.

Wonderful points made.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

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If 16 year olds were allowed to vote how many of them would vote for Taylor Swift instead of a politician?
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by stessier »

dbt1949 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:31 pm If 16 year olds were allowed to vote how many of them would vote for Taylor Swift instead of a politician?
How many adults would vote for a failed reality TV star?
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

dbt1949 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:31 pm If 16 year olds were allowed to vote how many of them would vote for Taylor Swift instead of a politician?
Well, I mean, who cares if they did write that in? I highly doubt many would be compelled to go to the effort just for kicks.
Probably be the same number of votes cast for George Clooney, probably less than Mickey Mouse
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Isgrimnur »

YellowKing wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:11 pm And yes, we could bring legal marriage age into the equation, but in almost all states that's only with parental consent. Without parental consent, you're still hitting that magic 18 number.
I think the parental consent loophole needs to be eliminated.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Blackhawk »

I am of the opinion that maturity isn't determined by age. I have known plenty of 16-year-olds who were far more mature, competent, and informed than most 40-something adults, and plenty of adults who can't be trusted to tie their shoes. But short of a competency test for adulthood, we have to pick an age.

Scientific maturity? Brain maturity doesn't happen until the mid-20s. A typical 22-year-old is, biologically, an adolescent. And women generally achieve biological maturity before men anyway. Since we're not going to raise the voting age to 25, science is out.

Social/legal standards? Marriage is too variable, running from 14 to 18 (21 if you include Puerto Rico.) And what is at 16? You can drive, get laid, get married. 21 is the drinking/smoking age. Why? Because we don't feel that 18 was old enough for some things, so we bumped it (I'm sure that having legally drunk kids in high school was a factor here.) 18 is the military/signature/porn/jury duty age. It's the 'age of majority', when you're legally considered an adult.

But why? A lot of it does stem from school. Our education system 'finishes' most kids at 18, which is the point at which we're dumped into the world. They're considered 'prepared' for the world at 18, before which they're still getting ready, being trained for adulthood. Which is why they're eligible for military service at 18, which is why the voting age was lowered to 18 (as dbt can attest.) And a lot of the 'age majority' rights and responsibilities tend to follow the voting age. But is there really any basis for '18' being the age of adulthood? There is for 25, and there is clearly not for 12. Other than that being when you're finished with your public education, there isn't really any reason for choosing 18. It's just a number chosen for convenience.

It's my thought that knowledge is perishable. A 16-year-old is almost certainly better informed about American history and civics than a typical 40-year-old who has forgotten most of what they know. And a great many of them have a strong interest in politics, and probably as aware as the general populace. It seems like 16 is a perfectly valid age to vote. And my other thought in something like this is to turn it around. What is the reason for denying them the right to vote? The only ones I keep hearing are lack of experience and lack of knowledge. But lack of knowledge is incorrect, as I just mentioned, and the kind of experience people are talking about is real, but it isn't something that an 18-year-old has, either.

So, I say change it. Allow more people to vote. If you want to make sure people are qualified, offer something comparable to the driving test that allows 16-year-olds to vote early, a 'Voter's Certification.'

But that doesn't mean that we should change the age of majority to 16, either. In fact, as the parent of an 18-year-old and a 20-year-old, I would opine that there would be value in trickling in adult rights and responsibilities for a couple of years rather than dumping every responsibility on them all at once the day they turn 18. I can tell you from experience that it can be a shock to them when it hits all at once.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by dbt1949 »

I keep thinking back to when I was young and all the songs talking about "sweet 16". Then I think about the 16 year old girls and how immature they were.
It's a mindset I have a hard time breaking.
And of course in those days you weren't a "real" adult (with all the age restriction things) until you turned 21.
I do think kids now a days are more mature than in my day because of what's happening in the world.
Altho I lean towards 16 being too young I'm not passionate about it.
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Voting Age: 16

Post by Zarathud »

18-24 year olds turn up to vote 13% less than the national average. They’re not going to be the miracle you’re hoping for.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by em2nought »

Zarathud wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:25 pm 18-24 year olds turn up to vote 13% less than the national average. They’re not going to be the miracle you’re hoping for.
I'm not sure why a winning vote for the status quo that we have right now would be a miracle. :lol:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Unagi »

Zarathud wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:25 pm 18-24 year olds turn up to vote 13% less than the national average. They’re not going to be the miracle you’re hoping for.
I’m not saying it will be a change at all in election outcome.
I’m just trying to let more people vote who are responsible enough to vote.

Also, there is the argument that if you let people vote at a younger age they may engage in voting more in their young adult life than they do now.

We teach them about civics and our history and then tell them to wait for like 4-6 more years before they can participate.

I see the involvement and participation (and their investment) more important than their specific vote.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by noxiousdog »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:27 am So, I say change it. Allow more people to vote. If you want to make sure people are qualified, offer something comparable to the driving test that allows 16-year-olds to vote early, a 'Voter's Certification.'
Poll tests? That doesn't sound like a great idea.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Blackhawk »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:14 am
Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:27 am So, I say change it. Allow more people to vote. If you want to make sure people are qualified, offer something comparable to the driving test that allows 16-year-olds to vote early, a 'Voter's Certification.'
Poll tests? That doesn't sound like a great idea.

Like I've said before, I'm not terribly well versed in politics. I'm guessing this has history behind it.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by stessier »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:54 am
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:14 am
Blackhawk wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:27 am So, I say change it. Allow more people to vote. If you want to make sure people are qualified, offer something comparable to the driving test that allows 16-year-olds to vote early, a 'Voter's Certification.'
Poll tests? That doesn't sound like a great idea.

Like I've said before, I'm not terribly well versed in politics. I'm guessing this has history behind it.
They weren't outlawed until the Voting Rights act in 1965. Before that they were in place in the Southern States to limit access to voting.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Blackhawk »

Ah. I was unaware of that history. I was talking more about the idea of 'pass a standardized civics course in your sophomore year, or wait until you're 18', but if that's something likely to be abused, then ignore it - it was just an off-the-cuff idea.
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Re: Voting Age: 16

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's almost as if people are the problem.
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