Home ownership sucks!

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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Smoove_B »

jztemple2 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:15 pm Hmm. I guess it depends on the choices you made earlier in life. My wife and I got married in 1979
Ok, boomer. :wink:
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by pr0ner »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:49 pm
Jaymon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:39 pm The money you spend on mortgage, you get back when you sell (if you sell).
Except for all those property taxes and insurance, which is presently 41% of my payment. And the interest.

Which, of course, renters are just paying at another level of obfuscation.
41% for taxes and insurance? Damn.
Last edited by pr0ner on Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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Image

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Last edited by Isgrimnur on Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by pr0ner »

I'm at about 24% for taxes and insurance - my escrow payment is about $250 less than yours!
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm probably overdue to shop for homeowners insurance.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Isgrimnur »

My effective property tax rate is 2.85%
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Madmarcus »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:49 pm Image

Image

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Crazy. My entire payment is less than your escrow amount. Of course I'm in a cheap suburb of a low or moderate cost of living metro area with an older home (from the eighties). It suites me just fine but like buying older houses in the rust belt or rural Midwest it is hard to generalize to others trying to live in more desirable suburbs in more expensive metro areas.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Isgrimnur »

We bought here in 2015. County valuation has gone up ~40% during that time.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:56 pm My effective property tax rate is 2.85%
Gotta make up for that lack of state income tax somehow!
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Isgrimnur »

Yup. And since its all at the county level, at least it stays around.

The line items are county, city, school district.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Scuzz »

We bought our house in 1993 for $146k. Today it is probably worth $350-$375k. We still owe $46k on it and pay under $300 a month but we do still owe for another 20 years. But honestly, who cares.

The re-sale price of a home really means nothing unless you plan on moving into another market after you sell, because if your house has gone up in price so has any other worthwhile home in your market.]
Last edited by Scuzz on Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by hitbyambulance »

i'm trying to figure out how to buy a house as a single person in Seattle, where the average home price is $824,666

https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/
Last edited by hitbyambulance on Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Isgrimnur »

The resale price of my home matters because it determines my yearly property tax burden and HI cost.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by malchior »

pr0ner wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:47 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:49 pm
Jaymon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:39 pm The money you spend on mortgage, you get back when you sell (if you sell).
Except for all those property taxes and insurance, which is presently 41% of my payment. And the interest.

Which, of course, renters are just paying at another level of obfuscation.
41% for taxes and insurance? Damn.
NJ say let me hold your beer. My payment is $1850 for the mortgage and $1450 for the escrow. Approximately $1250 of that escrow is just my property tax. Fuck NJ.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by jztemple2 »

hitbyambulance wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:54 pm i'm trying to figure out how to buy a house as a single person in Seattle, where the average home price is $824,666

https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/
For my zip code it is $225,291. But sheesh, see how it has changed in the past ten years. No wonder I keep getting offers in the mail to sell my house.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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malchior wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:58 pm
pr0ner wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:47 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:49 pm
Jaymon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:39 pm The money you spend on mortgage, you get back when you sell (if you sell).
Except for all those property taxes and insurance, which is presently 41% of my payment. And the interest.

Which, of course, renters are just paying at another level of obfuscation.
41% for taxes and insurance? Damn.
NJ say let me hold your beer. My payment is $1850 for the mortgage and $1450 for the escrow. Approximately $1250 of that escrow is just my property tax. Fuck NJ.
And you don't even get to deduct it all anymore from your federal taxes.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Zenn7 »

I'd consider going back to renting, but we'd have to rent a house (wife will NOT go back to an apartment).

I have no garage, just a large shed (about the size of a single car garage w/ a loft and small area for lawn mower/wheel barrow/stuff like that in back.

It wasn't the greatest house when we moved in and paid 117,500 (a little more actually as we rolled all the costs we could into the 0% down payment mortgage). Refi'd after 3 years because it was variable rate and wanted to get fixed with no PMIC. Got that in 2006 just before the housing bubble burst. How was I supposed to know then that 6.99% would be HIGH interest rate for the next 15+ years.

It is currently rated at a high end by zillow at about $150,000 18 years later.

I had a car w/ known issues when we moved in (head gasket had blown and they did a patch fix for me that got it running (at my request) but warned me it would fail completely at some unguessable point in the not so distant future, worked out to about 6 months). Having gotten tired of issues w/ used cars, I bought a new Toyota Corolla (last year's model). Great purchase, lasted 14.5 years til I t-boned the SUV that pulled out in front of me, while I was doing 45 MPH.

6 months later, hit a deer on the way home and totaled wife's minivan, so had to buy her a new minivan. Didn't really have the money for another vehicle payment (at this point I was still paying on the loan from the car that had died).

First few years were super tight, no fixing up, it was a financial struggle to not fall behind. 2006 some things improved financially so we were able to work on really paying off credit cards (had everything consolidated on fixed for life of the debt I put on them in one shot on 2-3 different cards). And was able to start saving a small amount of money. Eventually got the aforementioned repairs/upgrades made (plumbing was required, windows were old, cheap cottage windows, so not required by HIGHLY RECOMMENDED upgrade; central air was not required but extremely useful and although we haven't saved enough to pay for it, the electricity savings over 2 window A/C's has been significant). Roof on shed was required (leaking in shed). Doors were sort of required, the screen/storm doors had ripped out the thing at the top where it attaches to the door frame. One of the doors did it a few times. Frame was in really bad shape on one door and not shape on the other, so they were kind of essential. Private road, I'd put 5 yards of gravel in a few years ago and swiped a few wheelbarrows from the main street over the years to fill in some of the worst holes, but it just kept getting worse and worse and was likely adding significant wear on our vehicles. Could have patched for $500 or $2,000 for a more long term fix. Went with the more expensive option.

Long story, but the point of it is I have not had $3-4k to invest every year. More like about once every 4 years or so.

And this was the best house we could afford (it's a nice neighborhood that got a lot better with the neighbors across the street - 1 brother is my mechanic, picks the vehicles up and drops them off when done, fair to great pricing as they just work out of their garage over there, not a formal shop/store front; the other brother owns a construction business - we have not been able to get people to come out for smaller one off projects; he did the doors and driveway and will be doing other work; not to mention a ton of things they've done to help us in small ways). Anything cheaper was in much worse neighborhoods (safety/rundown wise).

Think my escrow for Property Taxes and Insurance is just over 20%.

I have a decent job and am now making not quite twice what I was when we moved in. Wife quit work but she was only doing part time, low wage work. Her best year was maybe $5k. Usually around $3k I think. Basically to help pay for her van. With Covid she was going to be out of work for a while at least anyway and way too high risk for her to try working (she was a Day Care assistant teacher).

We are likely to stay here when we retire, just because we have no great desire to live anywhere else and this will be paid off shortly before I retire (I'll be 64, not planning to retire early unless I win the lotto). Assuming of course the cost of fixing everything does not so vastly exceed our savings that we cannot afford to repair the house to a livable state (not to mention the not absolutely essential things like new floor, which needed to be replaced when we moved in).

Overall, just too much stress, particularly as all the issues are coming back to back w/ no chance to really do anything about any of them or even see how bad they really are. Combined w/ other non-house things, just difficult to deal with sometimes.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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I thought about selling our house and using the money to rent a townhouse or condo. A nice 2BR apartment rents for around $2,500 here, so let's use that for the benchmark. If we sell it as-is, our house will bring in $450,000. Figure $400,000 after taxes and realtor and moving expenses and whatnot. That's enough to pay rent for about 13 years. Am I going to live for 13 more years? Lord, I hope not, but one must plan for the worst. Of course, we have retirement accounts and social security for income, so that just means our house could buy housing for 13 years without nicking any of our other money. It wouldn't be a dumb financial move.

As I said earlier, I appreciate the independence that ownership provides. I won't give that up to a condo or homeowners association. My sister's apartment has a little postage-stamp of land where gardening is permitted -- but only flowers, no vegetables. Apparently food is unsightly or looks hillbilly or something. My BIL bought a house in a FL development where the homeowners association dictates allowable paint colors and insists that all hedges be trimmed to the same height. Most rental properties don't allow smoking, even cannabis. And of course a lessor can intrude at will for maintenance, raise your rent unpredictably, and even refuse to renew your lease.

Nope, after 32 years of homeowning, I couldn't go back to renting. We either have to transform this house to make it elder-friendly -- very difficult, since our small lot means we'd have to expand up, not out -- or sell it and buy another house in a cheaper market. We can't afford to stay in our neighborhood unless we stay in our house.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Isgrimnur »

I have a special place in my rage wallet for power-tripping apartment personnel.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by malchior »

pr0ner wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:22 pm
malchior wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:58 pm
pr0ner wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:47 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:49 pm
Jaymon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:39 pm The money you spend on mortgage, you get back when you sell (if you sell).
Except for all those property taxes and insurance, which is presently 41% of my payment. And the interest.

Which, of course, renters are just paying at another level of obfuscation.
41% for taxes and insurance? Damn.
NJ say let me hold your beer. My payment is $1850 for the mortgage and $1450 for the escrow. Approximately $1250 of that escrow is just my property tax. Fuck NJ.
And you don't even get to deduct it all anymore from your federal taxes.
I referenced a hole in my cost model above. This is it. I was one of the few people who saw a tax increase in 2017.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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Kraken wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:12 am As I said earlier, I appreciate the independence that ownership provides. I won't give that up to a condo or homeowners association. My sister's apartment has a little postage-stamp of land where gardening is permitted -- but only flowers, no vegetables. Apparently food is unsightly or looks hillbilly or something. My BIL bought a house in a FL development where the homeowners association dictates allowable paint colors and insists that all hedges be trimmed to the same height.
I've only ever lived in apartments while single and then in townhomes after I got married. A townhome life agrees with my wife and me. For our HOA only outside colors are regulated and my wife can work with those. We're both not garden people so planting flowers that mostly take care of themselves is fine. The land is on a former Army post and the HOA doesn't recommend eating stuff grown in the soil but as I said, we're not garden people so trying to keep vegetables alive is not my idea of fun.

The community we're in has a lot of kids which is great for us. Lots of walking and bike paths and little pocket parks every few blocks so I don't mind not having much of a yard. See "we're not garden people" above, too, which also counts for not wanting to mow grass. And the HOA actually doesn't even have "thou shalt keep these plants in your yard" kind of laws, so everyone is free to express their individuality through their front yards.

So, not having to mow, only responsible for a small patch of land, being part of a friendly community with lots of kids, and being able to bike and play in nearby parks? For us, that's heaven.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by LordMortis »

hitbyambulance wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:25 pm so what's the advice to someone who is still a non-property owner? would those complaining in this thread actually voluntarily return to being a renter?

(i suspect not)
If I could have not bought? Yes. But once I was in for a penny...

Not sure what I would have done to continue though. Maybe rented a house and hopped around. Or bought a condo when the market took a dump 2008, especially if I could a detached condo with a garage at an affordable price.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Scuzz »

So I saw today on the news that home prices are up 11.9% this year over last, and that existing homes are averaging higher than new.

I wonder how many areas are starting build more "starter" homes in areas that either lack apartments or average too expensive. I live in a city that because of the school district has exploded over the last 20 years. In the last couple years there are more "starter" homes being built. Of course they have backyards the size of pool tables but I believe that is how governments want homes built now.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Daehawk »

Here they do a Dream Home giveaway each year for charity. This year its not going to be completed on time at all. They said they cant get the materials or get them on time. Also materials like wood and such has gone up 180%.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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Scuzz wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:55 pm I wonder how many areas are starting build more "starter" homes in areas that either lack apartments or average too expensive.
HUGE pushback around here for any effort to create affordable living spaces due to property values. Personally I would love to see my property value tank at least until I am ready to sell. :P
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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Heaven forbid "poor" people be seen in the ZIP Code.
Last edited by Isgrimnur on Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by jztemple2 »

In Central Florida I've seen a massive amount of large apartment complexes being built, especially in East Orlando near UCF (University of Central Florida). But even here in my county there has been a big push, along with the push to build single family homes.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by stimpy »

I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never OWN a home.
I have had 3 houses in my lifetime. First one I lived in for about 10 years. Sold it for double what I paid.
Took a large chunk of that money and bought a nicer home in a nicer area.
Lived there for 12 years. Sold that and got back what I paid for it.
The house we're in now we bought in 2017 and is perfect for us, but when we both retire in a few years or so, we want to move to warmer pastures.
When we sell this house, we should make a nice profit.
So bottom line for me is I've always had equity in the houses and always used that to buy the next house.
It would be nice to have a house paid off, but when we retire we'll probably just buy a smaller condo or townhouse.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Zarathud »

Your house is the only depreciating asset that you can use. You may have to repair and rebuild it, but you own to live there and not to invest. Renting has its place if you are likely to move anyway and want a fixed cost without repairs. But when you own the place, you can hopefully decide which problems you need fixed right and know what maintenance short-cuts you're taking. Your landlord is not going to make the same choices.

We decided to buy after the plaster wall in my home office on the first floor was melting due to water damage -- that turned out to have come from a poorly sealed toilet on the third floor. Our upstairs neighbors just shut the door on their bathroom rather than complaining constantly to the landlord about all of the water damage. After rebuilding the exterior of a 100 year old house, we bought in a much worse area where the whole house was rebuilt.

While we weren't there to make sure the construction was done to our standards, my wife was able to move into the kitchen of her dreams while I had my basement office and room for a board game table. The kids got their own bedrooms and space for their own console and TV.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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I paid my house off last year, due to throwing everything I had into the principle. Right now, I'm throwing money into the bank for renovations that have to wait until the gouging stops. Getting the kitchen and the solar roof, then the EV, then retirement.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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I agree that I bought the house to own it, not as an investment. But it feels like a major source of stress frequently and a money pit. I was looking ot save money eventually, which might happen if I ever get it paid off, but until then, the repair bill (to hell with making the place any nicer/more livable), is likely more than offsetting the cost of renting.

Hoping to hell whatever we have to do, we have enough to cover all the repairs/fixes we need with a new floor. Getting that much done would go a long way. We really need a new shower or something too. Wife has trouble getting into/out of shower. Wants to get a walk in shower. Kid and I would like a functional tub as we like to take baths sometimes (which hasn't been an option for several years now).

Wife wants to get the living room at least, painted. We haven't painted since we moved in. Painting when the house was empty wasn't so bad except Mom helped me w/ most of the house and wife wasn't impressed with our painting.
Wife and her niece helped me with the living room. Niece did the bottom part close to the floor (she was a teenager, could get down there easier than us), I did the top part on the ladder, wife did the middle that she could do while standing. Wife whined about how slow me and her niece were. Considered making my kid an orphan then. She complained about my painting (somewhat fairly so) because I did not get all the way to the top. We were going to install some trim up there that would cover that. Except I was never able to figure that out on my own. My uncle (independent roofer) did it when he reshingled my shed roof, but that was a decade or so after we moved in. Good thing he did it, looked a heck of a lot better than if I'd tried!
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by dbt1949 »

I think the older a person gets the less likely they are to sell it. Nothing like having the mortgage paid off. Therefore it's not an investment anymore.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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Zenn7 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:47 pm She complained about my painting (somewhat fairly so) because I did not get all the way to the top. We were going to install some trim up there that would cover that. Except I was never able to figure that out on my own. My uncle (independent roofer) did it when he reshingled my shed roof, but that was a decade or so after we moved in. Good thing he did it, looked a heck of a lot better than if I'd tried!
When I painted the trim around our staircase I slobbered on the wallpaper because we were going to remove it. Years later, it's still there, silently shaming me.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

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dbt1949 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:13 pm I think the older a person gets the less likely they are to sell it. Nothing like having the mortgage paid off. Therefore it's not an investment anymore.
Absolutely true, at least for us. We saved, cut back and went without so we could pay off the 30 year mortgage at 17 years. We've not had a house payment since the new century began. That was a lot of money we were then able to put into the retirement accounts.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Madmarcus »

Zenn7 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:47 pm I agree that I bought the house to own it, not as an investment. But it feels like a major source of stress frequently and a money pit.
I generally feel that I've been lucky but I've never seen my home ownership as a significant source of stress. We've had leaks, water infiltration into the basement, rotting woad siding, clogged downspouts under the driveway, roof replacement, new kitchen cabinets, new wood flooring, exterior restaining, random tree removal, and a complete deck replacement. But it has also been 22 years of ownership. Overall I am more stress and bothered by the upkeep needs of my cars even though those expenses are cheaper. Mentally I trust the math that I'm generally saving money by avoiding rental increases over time and that savings plus the satisfaction of doing things how I want them done makes it feel less like a money pit.

The retirement question will be interesting. We certainly won't really need 5 bedrooms / 3000 square feet at some point. Both my parents and my MIL stayed in bigger houses into their late 70's but we've had thoughts about moving to someplace less dependent on a car which would lobby for a smaller house or apartment/townhome. But our current place is only $249,000 on Zillow and that isn't going to cover much in a walkable/good public transit area.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Madmarcus »

Kraken wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:18 pm When I painted the trim around our staircase I slobbered on the wallpaper because we were going to remove it. Years later, it's still there, silently shaming me.
I've been able to position furniture in front of most of my painting and wallboard mud messes.
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Kraken »

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:19 pm
Kraken wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:18 pm When I painted the trim around our staircase I slobbered on the wallpaper because we were going to remove it. Years later, it's still there, silently shaming me.
I've been able to position furniture in front of most of my painting and wallboard mud messes.
Wife: Why is there a chair on the stairs?
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Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Madmarcus »

Kraken wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:32 pm Wife: Why is there a chair on the stairs?
Me: Just squeeze around it.
:D that is a little tougher than some rough patches and visible seams in a spare bedroom! I can pretty much always throw another bookshelf in the spare bedroom.
Last edited by Madmarcus on Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jztemple2
Posts: 11545
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Brevard County, Florida, USA

Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by jztemple2 »

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:17 pm The retirement question will be interesting. We certainly won't really need 5 bedrooms / 3000 square feet at some point.
People have questioned us about why we built a four bedroom oversized house when we had no children and no plans to have anyone live with us. Thirty-seven years later we are having a hard time finding room to park my wife's new mobility scooter since there is so much stuff in the house :D. I'm in occasional negotiations with her over whether I can start putting bookcases in her office while she wants to keep playing furniture Rubik's Cube.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
Madmarcus
Posts: 3609
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:18 am
Location: Just outside your peripheral vision

Re: Home ownership sucks!

Post by Madmarcus »

Furniture expands to fill all space.
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