Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:24 am
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:43 am At the end of the day there's limited theory supporting why Rhode Island / Vermont / Wyoming should have equal representation in the Senate with California / New York / Texas. The main reason why we have it is that the small states at the convention wanted it for their own power, and large states were worried that the small states would walk or not ratify if it weren't included.
This isn't a new conversation; nor is it a uniquely American one.
So true.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:15 am
malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:17 amThe question is why though? It isn't like they've used that power for good. This "power" has been used to entrench white supremacy, oppress minorities, prevent progress at all costs, and rebel constantly. That's why I believe the defenses here buy into a mythological spirit that covers for a deeply dysfunctional and flawed system.
From your perspective. Others would see it as protecting gun rights, lower taxes, and freedom from unnecessary regulation and government encroachment.
Great let's get into perspectives because you're bringing up the heart of the matter. I don't think these are perspectives based in facts. They are somewhat rationalizations for the massively dysfunctional and non-optimal approaches we see to having a functioning society. And unfortunately, most of these are completely made up fears.

Guns: No one has in any concentrated way tried to take their guns away. In fact, this broken system has delivered us the advanced economies worst gun culture. We have more suicides and murders by gun than most advanced democracies by orders of magnitude. Any talk about reforming it is hyperbolized and shut down. We can't even protect children. To protect this insane gun culture we subject children nationwide to shootings and lock down drills. It is looks like a society scale mental illness at this point.

Lower taxes: It is an illusion. The 'small states' have built a tax system in those "low tax" states that punitively taxes the poorest people using regressive sin and consumption taxes. In some places there are more progressive structures like property taxes but more importantly these low tax regimes are subsidized by huge wealth transfers from mostly blue states to mostly red states. Enabled by the dysfunctional Senate.

Unnecessary regulation and government encroachment: There is some truth to this but it's pretty complicated. In the end this is a pretty unquantifiable thing. It is also often just code for low taxes for capital.

Still, I agree that sometimes too much or faulty regulation happens. There will be some regulation that appears unworkable from a local perspective just due to the nature of change. Not all change is good. A centralized Washington isn't going to always understand local issues. That is why they have representation and the courts to protect them. In fact, they have so much more representation. Yet that somehow hasn't stopped this supposed encroachment of the administrative state even though Republicans have been screaming about this for 40 years.

Are we supposed to believe despite their disproportionate representation they don't have enough input? It's ponderous to accept this at face value anymore. Worse this is too often the war cry of extremists like the Proud Boys who use it for recruitment or smaller groups like the Bundy's who want to live off public land without paying for it.
It really boils down to whether you're more afraid of your neighbors or you're more afraid of the government. At a population density of 1263 people/mi^2 in New Jersey, it makes total sense to be scared of your neighbor on one side and share community projects and enrichment on the other. I get it. I have no doubt my views have changed because I moved from a little subdivision wayyyy outside any city limits to downtown Houston.
This is fundamentally flawed IMO. I have absolutely no fears of my neighbors. The people next door to me are nosey pains in the asses but I'm not afraid of them. I live somewhere with pretty much no crime other than kids breaking into cars. I have no fear of gun violence in any meaningful way. We might go too far here on that issue for sure but there is a real trade off there that pays off for us. I'm also not afraid of my government - at least locally. They suck but they sure as shit aren't repressing me.
But for comparison, half the states live in population densities less than 100 per square mile (none rebelled) and that doesn't even include Texas. They get far more regulation and far less benefit from national government encroachment.
I invite you to quantify this. I still don't buy this as a real issue. They have tons of representation to stop this supposed overregulation. Yet still we hear about it non-stop. I suspect it is more mantra than reality. And I severely doubt giving them proportional representation would unleash the regulatory hounds on them.
Philosophically it's worth debating, but to dismiss it entirely prevents any serious engagement.
I'm not dismissing it outright but I just feel like this is the mythology I am talking about. It is often misplaced patriotism about how we are the best or tautologies that don't hold up to real inspection. That's all I'm saying. We have two centuries of evidence that the Senate was flawed, that our system is breaking down presently, and these sort of defenses don't really hold up all too well. That's all I'm saying.
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:41 am
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:24 am
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:43 am At the end of the day there's limited theory supporting why Rhode Island / Vermont / Wyoming should have equal representation in the Senate with California / New York / Texas. The main reason why we have it is that the small states at the convention wanted it for their own power, and large states were worried that the small states would walk or not ratify if it weren't included.
Yes, and Scotland, Wales, and Ireland have been chafing at British rule ever since they were United. This isn't a new conversation; nor is it a uniquely American one.
That comparison seems odd and ill-applicable. First because that Union (with the partial exception of Scotland) wasn't exactly voluntary. And second because I'm pretty sure that none of the regions in the U.K. get disproportionate representation in Parliament.
I'm on board for all that. And more importantly the UK Parliament has taken important steps to devolve power to national parliaments increasing local power at the national levels.
This isn't really about federalism (or the balance of power between regional governments and the national one), it's about the ability of 30% of voters to set national government policy against the wishes of 70% of voters just because of the geographic distribution of those 30%.
Exactly. And the defenses to this are hardly a good trade off even if they were real. Which they mostly aren't.
Last edited by malchior on Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:41 am This isn't really about federalism (or the balance of power between regional governments and the national one), it's about the ability of 30% of voters to set national government policy against the wishes of 70% of voters just because of the geographic distribution of those 30%.
But that's what they signed up for and you recognize and understand how and why it happened. The United States wouldn't be a thing without it.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:08 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:41 am This isn't really about federalism (or the balance of power between regional governments and the national one), it's about the ability of 30% of voters to set national government policy against the wishes of 70% of voters just because of the geographic distribution of those 30%.
But that's what they signed up for and you recognize and understand how and why it happened. The United States wouldn't be a thing without it.
This is true and worked pretty darned well until the GOP went completely off the rails in seeking power the power of the government without the responsibility.

There is value in ensuring that rural areas don't get trampled by urban areas (and vice versa), but it still requires people with a sense of responsibility to the people they were elected to represent, not their donors, especially rich, out of state, donors looking to buy preferential treatment.

The issue isn't the split, it's that it is being weaponized for power. Separation of Powers and Checks and Balances were intended to prevent this, but there are some flaws (major flaws, being exploited actively now).

IMHO, a huge part of it is Citizens United and Campaign Finance. Those regulations are the things which need to be tweaked and enforced with teeth to push the incentives back to representing actual constituents.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:08 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:41 am This isn't really about federalism (or the balance of power between regional governments and the national one), it's about the ability of 30% of voters to set national government policy against the wishes of 70% of voters just because of the geographic distribution of those 30%.
But that's what they signed up for and you recognize and understand how and why it happened. The United States wouldn't be a thing without it.
Well, I would say that Vermont, Rhode Island, and Delaware have reasonable detrimental reliance arguments. I'm less sure that Wyoming and the Dakotas do. I do also wonder whether if the big states had stuck to their guns whether Rhode Island would really have tried to go it alone.

But regardless, the deal is what it is. I'm just saying that it was a necessary political compromise 240ish years ago doesn't provide affirmative logical support for using that system going forward. Though we're stuck with it regardless.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:40 pm Well, I would say that Vermont, Rhode Island, and Delaware have reasonable detrimental reliance arguments. I'm less sure that the people of Wyoming and the Dakotas do. I do also wonder whether if the big states had stuck to their guns whether Rhode Island would really have tried to go it alone.

But regardless, the deal is what it is. I'm just saying that it was a necessary political compromise 240ish years ago doesn't provide affirmative logical support for using that system going forward. Though we're stuck with it regardless.
The people of Wyoming and Dakotas voted to join too, and you're assuming that rural states don't want to keep their ability to be crushed by urban ones. They never HAD to join. We still have plenty of US Territories.

This dismissive attitude of their rights is exactly why they are so afraid of the government.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:44 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:40 pm Well, I would say that Vermont, Rhode Island, and Delaware have reasonable detrimental reliance arguments. I'm less sure that the people of Wyoming and the Dakotas do. I do also wonder whether if the big states had stuck to their guns whether Rhode Island would really have tried to go it alone.

But regardless, the deal is what it is. I'm just saying that it was a necessary political compromise 240ish years ago doesn't provide affirmative logical support for using that system going forward. Though we're stuck with it regardless.
The people of Wyoming and Dakotas voted to join too, and you're assuming that rural states don't want to keep their ability to be crushed by urban ones. They never HAD to join. We still have plenty of US Territories.

This dismissive attitude of their rights is exactly why they are so afraid of the government.
That's a fair point that they voted to join. And I don't doubt that the people of Wyoming want to maintain their disproportionate influence over national policy - why wouldn't they?

But I wouldn't say I'm dismissive of their rights. I just think that the rights of Wyoming residents should be the same as California residents. By the same token I could say that they're dismissive of the rights of the majority of Americans to set national policy consistent with the wishes of the majority of the people.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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I would also say that a logical compromise here would be constitutional amendments which fix the disproportionate Senate representation issue while also devolving more authority to state governments. Which would allow the people of Wyoming to set more policy consistent with their wishes while doing the same at the federal level.

I know I might as well think up constitutional amendments establishing a state of magical unicorns. But you know, in theory it would make sense.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:53 pmBut I wouldn't say I'm dismissive of their rights. I just think that the rights of Wyoming residents should be the same as California residents. By the same token I could say that they're dismissive of the rights of the majority of Americans to set national policy consistent with the wishes of the majority of the people.
That's exactly the rub for me. The idea that they are afraid of being trampled when they're having mountains of cash shoveled on top of them and have disproportionate representation feels awfully hollow to me.
I would also say that a logical compromise here would be constitutional amendments which fix the disproportionate Senate representation issue while also devolving more authority to state governments. Which would allow the people of Wyoming to set more policy consistent with their wishes while doing the same at the federal level.
This is the solution that makes the most sense to me. The natural issue is what rights would they want to retain? Maybe this is too dismissive but many of their issues look awfully ginned up to me and I'd be afraid even in the unlikely event this happened it'd be a license to discriminate.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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I've also heard good things about the system that we wrote for (West) Germany after WWII. Maybe we should just adapt that.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:19 pm I've also heard good things about the system that we wrote for (West) Germany after WWII. Maybe we should just adapt that.
Right. I have heard the same. It's federal as well. It just had a rough patch picking someone post-Merkel but she just kept running things in the interim. Still a quick look around indicates most of our peers have a healthier environment for developing policy and protecting rights than ours even though our system is supposedly "better".
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:21 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:19 pm I've also heard good things about the system that we wrote for (West) Germany after WWII. Maybe we should just adapt that.
Right. I have heard the same. It's federal as well. It just had a rough patch picking someone post-Merkel but she just kept running things in the interim. Still a quick look around indicates most of our peers have a healthier environment for developing policy and protecting rights than ours even though our system is supposedly "better".
Everyone else got to learn from us. We were the first modern democracy, after all.

I'll also say that if I won the lottery tomorrow I'd enroll to get a PhD in essentially comparative constitutional design issues and spend the rest of my life trying to figure this stuff out.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:46 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:21 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:19 pm I've also heard good things about the system that we wrote for (West) Germany after WWII. Maybe we should just adapt that.
Right. I have heard the same. It's federal as well. It just had a rough patch picking someone post-Merkel but she just kept running things in the interim. Still a quick look around indicates most of our peers have a healthier environment for developing policy and protecting rights than ours even though our system is supposedly "better".
Everyone else got to learn from us. We were the first modern democracy, after all.
I'd argue that except for some minor tweaks the English have been doing it better and a lot longer than us. They however have the "benefit" that they don't have a pesky Constitution that has turned into a doomsday pact over time.

I guess my major problem I have is that when we get down into it everyone wants to hold onto their fantasies about what this system actually is and clings to the rationalizations to handwave away how bad it has become. I get these states' rights issues but that doesn't explain how in a world with 190 nations Joe Biden has gotten 12 ambassadors approved this year. Or that it is two or three Senators who are responsible for that sad tally. It isn't just the representation. The institution itself has rotted to the core with dysfunction.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:58 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:46 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:21 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:19 pm I've also heard good things about the system that we wrote for (West) Germany after WWII. Maybe we should just adapt that.
Right. I have heard the same. It's federal as well. It just had a rough patch picking someone post-Merkel but she just kept running things in the interim. Still a quick look around indicates most of our peers have a healthier environment for developing policy and protecting rights than ours even though our system is supposedly "better".
Everyone else got to learn from us. We were the first modern democracy, after all.
I'd argue that except for some minor tweaks the English have been doing it better and a lot longer than us. They however have the "benefit" that they don't have a pesky Constitution that has turned into a doomsday pact over time.

I guess my major problem I have is that when we get down into it everyone wants to hold onto their fantasies about what this system actually is and clings to the rationalizations to handwave away how bad it has become. I get these states' rights issues but that doesn't explain how in a world with 190 nations Joe Biden has gotten 12 ambassadors approved this year. Or that it is two or three Senators who are responsible for that sad tally. It isn't just the representation. The institution itself has rotted to the core with dysfunction.
Well, with the U.K. the transition from "actual monarchy" to "democracy with a decorative monarchy attached" happened slowly enough that it's a little tricky to date how old their democracy is. But in any event, ours is the first modern written constitution (were there ancient constitutions? Probably somewhere).

But yeah, I don't mean to blame the Senate structure with everything that's wrong. BUT the Senate structure is a big part of why McConnell-ism works - because the GOP can govern with only the GOP base in mind, and the Senate structure insulates the GOP from much of the political costs that they would otherwise pay (since as long as they can hold at least 41 Senate seats, they can cripple the ability of Democrats to pass anything that the GOP doesn't like). And I think McConnell-ism (and the mentality that goes along with it) is a big part of the rot that's everywhere.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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I remember another rural people that occupied these lands with a different way of life and needed to get out of the way for modern government.

edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
Last edited by noxiousdog on Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm I remember another rural people that occupied these lands and needed to get out of the way for modern government.
:lol:
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
I think ND has figured out that the Senate is the only thing keeping me from my ultimate goal of making the residents of Butte and Cody leave their homes and move to a reservation.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
The fact that you don't see it is the danger. You don't care, at all, about what rural folk might want. You haven't at all stopped to consider it. You know what's best for those hillbillies.

Look, I'm pro-safety COVID guy. Super pro-vaccine. Until I got a vaccine, the only indoor place I went was a supermarket and that was masked. I even masked yesterday despite our county being one of the lowest rates in the nation and having my booster.

But here on OO there is no nuance to our stance. We want a national mask mandate whether your county is at an infection rate of 10 people per 100,000, or 300 per 100,000. Whether the population density is 400 people/sq mi or 11. Whether vaccinated or unvaccinated.

Grond as Peacedog would say.

National politics is like that. It very likely is better for 80% of the country. Maybe 90%. But there's a lot of folks that worry about winding up in that 10%.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:18 pm
coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
I think ND has figured out that the Senate is the only thing keeping me from my ultimate goal of making the residents of Butte and Cody leave their homes and move to a reservation.
Kelo vs. New London

But you know I'm being more nuanced. Most decisions like this is all local politics.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/01/upshot/election-democracy-fear-americans.html wrote:That’s in part because most voters simply don’t see how their personal circumstances relate to federal policy and the people who set it, political scientists say.

“It’s hard to make those connections — to think that your individual job is directly connected to what the government is doing,” said Jennifer Merolla, a political scientist at the University of California, Riverside. “That’s a really complex evaluation to make.”
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
[buncha stereotypical rural characterizations] Edit.. retracted b/c I'm not sure it was clear that I'm not trying to paint ND with those things...
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by Combustible Lemur »

geezer wrote:
coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
Edit.. retracted b/c I'm not sure it was clear that I'm not trying to pain ND with those things...
You're flippant but not wrong. Localized tribes have all sorts of quirks and power dynamics that don't translate to larger more diverse populations.

Rural Communities have ALWAYS chafed under centralized regulation, state sponsored or protection from religion, corporatized economic powers (walmart, east India, whatever the Roman business charters were called), and imported values.
When the population is smaller and more homogenous the lines between economy, laws, religion, and values vanish. Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more attenuated to multiculturalism feels like cultural genocide not "just getting along".

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

Combustible Lemur wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:04 pm
geezer wrote:
coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
Edit.. retracted b/c I'm not sure it was clear that I'm not trying to pain ND with those things...
You're flippant but not wrong. Localized tribes have all sorts of quirks and power dynamics that don't translate to larger more diverse populations.

Rural Communities have ALWAYS chafed under centralized regulation, state sponsored or protection from religion, corporatized economic powers (walmart, east India, whatever the Roman business charters were called), and imported values.
When the population is smaller and more homogenous the lines between economy, laws, religion, and values vanish. Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more attenuated to multiculturalism feels like cultural genocide not "just getting along".

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more likely to be depressed, crime committing, godless, homeless, junkies (exacerbated by media and holywood stereotypes) feels like cultural genocide.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by geezer »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:11 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:04 pm
geezer wrote:
coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
Edit.. retracted b/c I'm not sure it was clear that I'm not trying to pain ND with those things...
You're flippant but not wrong. Localized tribes have all sorts of quirks and power dynamics that don't translate to larger more diverse populations.

Rural Communities have ALWAYS chafed under centralized regulation, state sponsored or protection from religion, corporatized economic powers (walmart, east India, whatever the Roman business charters were called), and imported values.
When the population is smaller and more homogenous the lines between economy, laws, religion, and values vanish. Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more attenuated to multiculturalism feels like cultural genocide not "just getting along".

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Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more likely to be depressed, crime committing, godless, homeless, junkies (exacerbated by media and holywood stereotypes) feels like cultural genocide.
As does being told that you can't beat the shit out of that "homo" you found with the other guy in the barn, no doubt.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

geezer wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:14 pm As does being told that you can't beat the shit out of that "homo" you found with the other guy in the barn, no doubt.
And yet, support for homosexual equality continues to climb in Republican circles, so seems that's an unlikely motivator. Good stereotype though.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Actually, this is worthy of the conversation.

Crime stats

There is truth to the stereotype, but it's actually not that different from urban areas 8% of LGBT students were assaulted in cities vs 12.2% in rural areas.

However general crime is WAY, WAY higher in the cities. Not just by numbers which can be exploited by media, but in rate numbers. Even more telling, urban dwellers are less likely to report it (in most cases).
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:53 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:18 pm
coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
I think ND has figured out that the Senate is the only thing keeping me from my ultimate goal of making the residents of Butte and Cody leave their homes and move to a reservation.
Kelo vs. New London

But you know I'm being more nuanced. Most decisions like this is all local politics.
Yes, the word that comes to mind when I think about your comparison of the situation of rural Americans if the Senate were abolished to the fate of the Native American tribes is definitely "nuanced".

I'm also unclear what the relevance of Kelo is to this when that was a local government in an urban state acting on its local population. If the point is that government power can be abused or misused...sure. More of an argument for limited government (at all levels) than an argument about what the composition of the electorate should be.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:11 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:04 pm
geezer wrote:
coopasonic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:45 pm edit: Nobody's taking their land (most of the time) and forcing them to move or shooting them, but it is an attempt to change their way of life. And I'm sure yours is so much better than those Idaho yokels.
I'm genuinely curious on what changes to the rural way of life we're trying impose?
Edit.. retracted b/c I'm not sure it was clear that I'm not trying to pain ND with those things...
You're flippant but not wrong. Localized tribes have all sorts of quirks and power dynamics that don't translate to larger more diverse populations.

Rural Communities have ALWAYS chafed under centralized regulation, state sponsored or protection from religion, corporatized economic powers (walmart, east India, whatever the Roman business charters were called), and imported values.
When the population is smaller and more homogenous the lines between economy, laws, religion, and values vanish. Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more attenuated to multiculturalism feels like cultural genocide not "just getting along".

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Being told that you have to behave like city folk who are far more likely to be depressed, crime committing, godless, homeless, junkies (exacerbated by media and holywood stereotypes) feels like cultural genocide.
This sounds like a whole lot of hokum to me. Who is telling them they have to be like city folk? What are the consequences when they don't act like city folk? Again I'm looking for something more than the empty stuff that Fox is pumping at them. I get they think this way but I can't help but think this is more the result of misinformation and concerted propaganda than something real.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:41 pm
The fact that you don't see it is the danger. You don't care, at all, about what rural folk might want. You haven't at all stopped to consider it. You know what's best for those hillbillies.
You seem to love high minded rhetoric, and I know I'm just an east coast elitist who is dying to tell Real America what to do, but I would enjoy some specifics. What do you think will happen to life in Vermont if we stop giving voters there 63x the weight of the voters of California in the Senate?

Would national policies change? Sure, at least somewhat. But would rural life disappear? No more than rural life has ceased to exist in the UK, France, Germany, or other modern democracies that don't have the design of our Senate.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:01 pmThis sounds like a whole lot of hokum to me. Who is telling them they have to be like city folk? What are the consequences when they don't act like city folk? Again I'm looking for something more than the empty stuff that Fox is pumping at them. I get they think this way but I can't help but think this is more the result of misinformation and concerted propaganda than something real.
I could have sworn gun control was a thing. Telling them who they can hire or fire. Whether or not they can build on land they've already secured. Forcing folks to wear masks. Taking money from some folks and giving it to other folks (after everybody gets their cut of course!).
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:01 pmThis sounds like a whole lot of hokum to me. Who is telling them they have to be like city folk? What are the consequences when they don't act like city folk? Again I'm looking for something more than the empty stuff that Fox is pumping at them. I get they think this way but I can't help but think this is more the result of misinformation and concerted propaganda than something real.
I could have sworn gun control was a thing. Telling them who they can hire or fire. Whether or not they can build on land they've already secured. Forcing folks to wear masks. Taking money from some folks and giving it to other folks (after everybody gets their cut of course!).
First of all, what does any of that have to do with telling them to be "like city folk"?

Second, government tells people what to do. That's how government works, and it works like that regardless of whether you live in Butte or Boston. The government also tells companies in Boston that they can't dump toxic chemicals into the Charles.

What does any of that have to do with the Senate?
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:41 pm
The fact that you don't see it is the danger. You don't care, at all, about what rural folk might want. You haven't at all stopped to consider it. You know what's best for those hillbillies.
You seem to love high minded rhetoric, and I know I'm just an east coast elitist who is dying to tell Real America what to do, but I would enjoy some specifics. What do you think will happen to life in Vermont if we stop giving voters there 63x the weight of the voters of California in the Senate?

Would national policies change? Sure, at least somewhat. But would rural life disappear? No more than rural life has ceased to exist in the UK, France, Germany, or other modern democracies that don't have the design of our Senate.
I've been on board with a popularly elected president for a while, and I'm fine with getting rid of the filibuster too, though I'm seriously worried about what that would do if/when the Senate goes Republican again.

I haven't really had any qualms with your posts.

But I can understand why folks feel the federal government overreaches and want to keep it at bay as long as possible.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:23 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:07 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:41 pm
The fact that you don't see it is the danger. You don't care, at all, about what rural folk might want. You haven't at all stopped to consider it. You know what's best for those hillbillies.
You seem to love high minded rhetoric, and I know I'm just an east coast elitist who is dying to tell Real America what to do, but I would enjoy some specifics. What do you think will happen to life in Vermont if we stop giving voters there 63x the weight of the voters of California in the Senate?

Would national policies change? Sure, at least somewhat. But would rural life disappear? No more than rural life has ceased to exist in the UK, France, Germany, or other modern democracies that don't have the design of our Senate.
I've been on board with a popularly elected president for a while, and I'm fine with getting rid of the filibuster too, though I'm seriously worried about what that would do if/when the Senate goes Republican again.

I haven't really had any qualms with your posts.

But I can understand why folks feel the federal government overreaches and want to keep it at bay as long as possible.
Sure! But the Senate structure doesn't really restrict federal government power. It just means that voters in Hawaii get 20x the influence over what the Senate authorizes it to do than voters in Texas.

Like I said, if a deal is on the table to devolve more power to the states in exchange for a fairer Senate structure, then I'd take that. Let the people of Delaware set as much policy for themselves as they want - they can keep the Delawaran lifestyle as Delawaran as they want.

Though as an aside its ridiculous that Delaware basically gets to set corporate regulatory policy for the entire country, but that's another issue altogether.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:19 pm First of all, what does any of that have to do with telling them to be "like city folk"?
That's more of a tangent.
Second, government tells people what to do. That's how government works, and it works like that regardless of whether you live in Butte or Boston. The government also tells companies in Boston that they can't dump toxic chemicals into the Charles.

What does any of that have to do with the Senate?
Are you asking from the perspective of Vermont or from the perspective of Americans in general?

I mean clearly the distribution has gotten untenable. It's gone from a 10x differential (Delaware:Virginia) in 1776, to a 70x difference today (Wyoming:California) with 1/2 the states today being at a worse ratio than Delaware/Virginia.

But I'm pretty sure Wyoming et al, are fine with that.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by geezer »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:01 pmThis sounds like a whole lot of hokum to me. Who is telling them they have to be like city folk? What are the consequences when they don't act like city folk? Again I'm looking for something more than the empty stuff that Fox is pumping at them. I get they think this way but I can't help but think this is more the result of misinformation and concerted propaganda than something real.
I could have sworn gun control was a thing. Telling them who they can hire or fire. Whether or not they can build on land they've already secured. Forcing folks to wear masks. Taking money from some folks and giving it to other folks (after everybody gets their cut of course!).
Gun control is "a thing." But gun control has *always* been "a thing." The colonial and the first American laws were rife with important context about who could carry a gun, where, and when.
The right of individual self-defense was well-established
under common law, but was legally distinct from the constitutional
right to bear arms included in the various state constitutions.79 The
failure to include an explicit protection for such a right was hardly
anomalous: many protections under common law were not included
in bills of rights during the Founding Era.8
" Americans drafted their
constitutional protections for the right to bear arms in response to
their fear that government might disarm the militia, not restrict the
common law right of self-defense.81 Indeed, if one scans the vast
corpus of writings from the ratification debates, virtually every
reference to bearing arms occurs within the context of the debate over
the militia. 2 Even if one includes the Revolutionary Era and the
federalist era, references to anything that might be construed as a
constitutional right of individual self-defense are exceedingly rare, and
almost always turn out to be statements from dissenting constitutional
texts that expressed the point of view of the losers in the great
constitutional struggles of the eighteenth century...
Who they can hire or fire? Yes, you can't fire someone for being black. Or gay, or female. Is that really where you want to make a stand? Or masks? An utterly harmless action. Taxes? Welcome to time eternal. "Render unto Caesar..." and all that.

Point being, Malchoir is right - so much of it *is* "hokum." There's are reasons why things went more smoothly before the civil rights era. Before the "southern strategy." Before Roe. And those reasons are that before those things happened, people were free to treat other people abhorrently without consequence, and that there was no one out there stoking the anger over the "loss" of those "freedoms" for political advantage. Are you gonna make me drag out the Lee Atwater quote?
Last edited by geezer on Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:31 pm Sure! But the Senate structure doesn't really restrict federal government power. It just means that voters in Hawaii get 20x the influence over what the Senate authorizes it to do than voters in Texas.
Fundamentally true, but the Senate has always been kind of obstructionist in nature. It's why there is a filibuster.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:32 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:19 pm First of all, what does any of that have to do with telling them to be "like city folk"?
That's more of a tangent.
Second, government tells people what to do. That's how government works, and it works like that regardless of whether you live in Butte or Boston. The government also tells companies in Boston that they can't dump toxic chemicals into the Charles.

What does any of that have to do with the Senate?
Are you asking from the perspective of Vermont or from the perspective of Americans in general?

I mean clearly the distribution has gotten untenable. It's gone from a 10x differential (Delaware:Virginia) in 1776, to a 70x difference today (Wyoming:California) with 1/2 the states today being at a worse ratio than Delaware/Virginia.

But I'm pretty sure Wyoming et al, are fine with that.
I should say so! Sort of like how if they put me in charge of policy for the city of Boston, that would be unfair, but like I'm sure I wouldn't protest too much right?

But like, if you agree that the distribution is untenable, and incidentally is only going to get worse for the foreseeable future...what do you think should be done about that? Obviously I understand that the people of Wyoming and other small states wouldn't like any change that reduces their power (nobody likes that!). But like, there's also a limit to how long the people of California, Texas, and New York and the like are going to be ok with subsidizing other states while having a disproportionately small influence over how their money is spent.

So...what do we do about it?
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

geezer wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:33 pm Who they can hire or fire? Yes, you can't fire someone for being black. Or gay, or female. Is that really where you want to make a stand? Or masks? An utterly harmless action. Taxes? Welcome to time eternal. "Render unto Caesar..." and all that.

Point being, Malchoir is right - so much of it *is* "hokum." There's are reasons why things went more smoothly before the civil rights era. Before the "southern strategy." Before Roe. And those reasons are that before those things happened, people were free to treat other people abhorrently without consequence, and that there was no one out there stoking the anger over the "loss" of those "freedoms" for political advantage. Are you gonna make me drag out the Lee Atwater quote?
How's that going for you in Democratically controlled cities? More crime, more segregation, more financial inequality, etc, etc.

I mean, I know you'll say if everyone would just vote Democratic Party it would all go away, but if I'm afraid of the government, that's not a very compelling argument.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:35 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:31 pm Sure! But the Senate structure doesn't really restrict federal government power. It just means that voters in Hawaii get 20x the influence over what the Senate authorizes it to do than voters in Texas.
Fundamentally true, but the Senate has always been kind of obstructionist in nature. It's why there is a filibuster.
Not actually true. We have the filibuster because Aaron Burr mistakenly thought that the majority motion to end debate was superfluous.
We have many received wisdoms about the filibuster. However, most of them are not true. The most persistent myth is that the filibuster was part of the founding fathers’ constitutional vision for the Senate: It is said that the upper chamber was designed to be a slow-moving, deliberative body that cherished minority rights. In this version of history, the filibuster was a critical part of the framers’ Senate.

However, when we dig into the history of Congress, it seems that the filibuster was created by mistake. Let me explain.

The House and Senate rulebooks in 1789 were nearly identical. Both rulebooks included what is known as the “previous question” motion. The House kept their motion, and today it empowers a simple majority to cut off debate. The Senate no longer has that rule on its books.

What happened to the Senate’s rule? In 1805, Vice President Aaron Burr was presiding over the Senate (freshly indicted for the murder of Alexander Hamilton), and he offered this advice. He said something like this. You are a great deliberative body. But a truly great Senate would have a cleaner rule book. Yours is a mess. You have lots of rules that do the same thing. And he singles out the previous question motion. Now, today, we know that a simple majority in the House can use the rule to cut off debate. But in 1805, neither chamber used the rule that way. Majorities were still experimenting with it. And so when Aaron Burr said, get rid of the previous question motion, the Senate didn’t think twice. When they met in 1806, they dropped the motion from the Senate rule book.

Why? Not because senators in 1806 sought to protect minority rights and extended debate. They got rid of the rule by mistake: Because Aaron Burr told them to.

Once the rule was gone, senators still did not filibuster. Deletion of the rule made possible the filibuster because the Senate no longer had a rule that could have empowered a simple majority to cut off debate. It took several decades until the minority exploited the lax limits on debate, leading to the first real-live filibuster in 1837.
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:38 pm I should say so! Sort of like how if they put me in charge of policy for the city of Boston, that would be unfair, but like I'm sure I wouldn't protest too much right?

But like, if you agree that the distribution is untenable, and incidentally is only going to get worse for the foreseeable future...what do you think should be done about that? Obviously I understand that the people of Wyoming and other small states wouldn't like any change that reduces their power (nobody likes that!). But like, there's also a limit to how long the people of California, Texas, and New York and the like are going to be ok with subsidizing other states while having a disproportionately small influence over how their money is spent.

So...what do we do about it?
You're seeing some of that now with the states that want to sent their electorate for the presidential candidate with the highest popular vote.

It would be interesting if the biggest states did decide it wasn't working. And while Texas is looked as as deeply Red, it's really not. Since 2000, the voting for a Democratic president went from 38% to 46.5%.

But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with AOC :)
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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