Octopus Overlords

It's "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" in EVERY store! You see where I'm going here!

I had a woman break up with me over watching Bruno together.
We were searching for something to watch. She wanted Four Christmases.
Instead I picked a movie which shows anal penetration of men within the first minute.
What's the difference?

msduncan wrote:This is a trip rescheduled three times and she was very firmly in the 'let's go' opinion. In fact we paid more just a week and a half ago to maintain the trip because we were required to upgrade to a deluxe resort in order to go.

I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but there’s a lot of confusing messaging here. I’ve not seen too many people want out of a marriage, but then still be up for consistent sex, going on vacations (in the immediate proximity of the bombshell), not be up for a 30 separation.

Like...what does she think ending this marriage is going to be like?

On some level, I guess I can get some apprehension on the 30-day no contact plan, if the plan was for you to move out for 30 days. If the problem was that EVERYTHING feels like it’s her responsibility, how would you moving out for 30 days, literally leaving her responsible for everything, help her in any way?

Given the circumstances, I would have thought that her not being there for 30 days would be a far more productive exercise. It forces you to feel like she’s been feeling, at least for 30 days. And it gives her some much needed relief.

Maybe I misunderstood the plan, but it all seems confusing from an external vantage point.

Rm9, You missed the part where they corrected that "msd moves out" part; now msd is at home - and she is in their pool-house for the 30 days.


But I agree with you on the 'mixed message' here 100%...


The idea of already planning a normal vacation on the heals of the 30 day break, seems blatantly absurd to my ear.
I can't imagine the therapist didn't squirm at this information, if they were told about it.

The sex and the new wedding band? What is she doing? Honestly, something doesn't make sense in the picture you are presenting.

Second guessing anyone's motivations in this situation is a recipe for disaster. I think it's best to just express your support and suggest professional guidance. Also, if you have any hats, put them in the closet for now as a precaution.

I assume he comes to this forum to hear from people on the forum.

I mean, if all he wants is blank friendly faces saying, "I feel for you, you should listen to a professional for help" (Which is clearly what we all want, and he's telling us he has done) - then I guess I can say that... but I do feel we owe it to each other to offer our point of view on what we are hearing here. I'm certainly not trying to say anything unkindly.

I'll let you give him the platitudes, but I don't find that very thoughtful, personally speaking of course.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:19 am

msduncan wrote:This is a trip rescheduled three times and she was very firmly in the 'let's go' opinion. In fact we paid more just a week and a half ago to maintain the trip because we were required to upgrade to a deluxe resort in order to go.

I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but there’s a lot of confusing messaging here. I’ve not seen too many people want out of a marriage, but then still be up for consistent sex, going on vacations (in the immediate proximity of the bombshell), not be up for a 30 separation.

Like...what does she think ending this marriage is going to be like?

On some level, I guess I can get some apprehension on the 30-day no contact plan, if the plan was for you to move out for 30 days. If the problem was that EVERYTHING feels like it’s her responsibility, how would you moving out for 30 days, literally leaving her responsible for everything, help her in any way?

Given the circumstances, I would have thought that her not being there for 30 days would be a far more productive exercise. It forces you to feel like she’s been feeling, at least for 30 days. And it gives her some much needed relief.

Maybe I misunderstood the plan, but it all seems confusing from an external vantage point.

No. You are absolutely correct. There are mixed messages all over the place. She even ordered me one of the rubberized replacement wedding bands for my birthday. The revised plan that we are on right now is this: She moves into our 'pool house' type area that is only connected via garage. She has everything she needs and can come and go as she pleases. We are to cease contact during this time.

Unagi wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:02 pm I assume he comes to this forum to hear from people on the forum.

I mean, if all he wants is blank friendly faces saying, "I feel for you, you should listen to a professional for help" (Which is clearly what we all want, and he's telling us he has done) - then I guess I can say that... but I do feel we owe it to each other to offer our point of view on what we are hearing here. I'm certainly not trying to say anything unkindly.

I'll let you give him the platitudes, but I don't find that very thoughtful, personally speaking of course.

I don't pretend to know where she is other than what she tells me. I can't convince her that my habits are fundamental changes because I want to be a good husband to her and not just because I'm selfishly wanting to keep her. The ONLY thing I can do is relentlessly do the things I always should have been doing, study our books and listen to my counselor so that I grow as a person and husband, and hope that she comes back to the table ready to walk with me into a healthy marriage that has vastly improved communication. The deep friendship is there, the sexual compatibility is there, but I have to repair the damage to her trust when it comes to filling her love bank and we both need to drastically improve our communication.

And a friend of mine suggested that if we make it back to a place where we are both working on it again -- we have every other week check ins over coffee about each other's feelings. It apparently helps greatly.

Unagi wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:02 pm I assume he comes to this forum to hear from people on the forum.

I mean, if all he wants is blank friendly faces saying, "I feel for you, you should listen to a professional for help" (Which is clearly what we all want, and he's telling us he has done) - then I guess I can say that... but I do feel we owe it to each other to offer our point of view on what we are hearing here. I'm certainly not trying to say anything unkindly.

I'll let you give him the platitudes, but I don't find that very thoughtful, personally speaking of course.

I'm perhaps overly cautious when it comes to dispensing relationship advice to someone I don't really know that well, with a spouse I don't know at all. That is true. But my hope that things work out is nonetheless sincere.

I apologize if I came across as chastising anyone, by the way. As I said, I'm probably over cautious in this particular situation.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:31 am You expect us to believe you intentionally concealed your glorious mane with a hat?

Or that there's an upscale grocery in Akron Ohio? Isn't that Kroger?





Can't add anything by way of advice. I've been in a few of these and have seen a ton. Less predictable than pachinko.

To me, the value of this place is that I can provide reasonably objective advice. I’m not biased for or against MSD or his wife. I can provide feedback that isn’t limited by any emotional attachment to the situation.

The weakness of this format is that my only window into the situation is what MSD provides. So I take that at face value, and respond.

In this case, I’m not suggesting anything about anyone. I’m just noting that there is some really confusing messaging.

And maybe that’s to be expected. It just seems odd.

I was aware that the plans changed, with her moving into the pool house. I assume that puts the daily obligations to keep the house running squarely on MSD’s shoulders? If that doesn’t develop a true appreciation for how she feels, nothing will.

I will freely admit though that I check out when people start talking about love languages and other stuff like that. I have limits.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:08 pm

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:31 am You expect us to believe you intentionally concealed your glorious mane with a hat?

Or that there's an upscale grocery in Akron Ohio? Isn't that Kroger?

West Point Market.

...now closed. So you're partially right.

I'm not an expert. I've read some books and been through marriage classes. I've tried to help friends when their marriages were on the rocks. Of course, I've had to deal with troubles in my marriage.

I don't think it's confusing messages. I agree with MSD that they're signs of hope. Think of what it takes to get to the point where you want out and want out now. The pattern of your life is bad. There are no signs of it getting better. You've now reached the point where you have to make a drastic change immediately because you can't take it any more.

So here's MSD making changes in the pattern of their lives. Of course, she's not going to trust the change right away. It's natural that she resents the fact that things had to come to a crisis before changes were made. If she's anything like my wife, she's upset that he didn't see she was suffering. He didn't know her well enough or work hard enough to get to know what's on her heart to see the problems and the pain. It's not a huge leap from there to questioning the love they have for each other.

Now she's willing to listen. She's willing to work on their relationship. She's willing to go to counseling. She might be willing to consider that the pattern of their lives could change. Those are signs of hope. Yes, he's digging out of a deep hole, but there's hope.

I have some advice that's helped in the past. It may or may not apply to this problem.

-- Love in marriage is an act not a feeling. You do things to smooth their path, lighten their load, and brighten their day. You work at getting to know them better so you can improve doing those things I just mentioned.

-- Past pain can poison a relationship. I had a friend who received a call from a old ex girlfriend. He told her he was married and unavailable. Then he did the right thing and told his wife about the call. His wife was cheated on in her previous marriage. Right then she labeled my friend a cheater. He fought hard for their marriage, but it was over. She didn't trust him with her heart any more.

-- You can only improve yourself. If you can work to be someone you'd want to be married to, your spouse might see things the same way. It's pointless to think things would get better if your spouse would change. You can only change yourself. An important way to improve yourself is to get better at communicating especially communicating your feelings and listening to your spouse's feelings.

Enough of me rambling. We're praying for you and your family MSD.

Also, MSD you have a PM.

Hrothgar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:39 pm
-- Past pain can poison a relationship. I had a friend who received a call from a old ex girlfriend. He told her he was married and unavailable. Then he did the right thing and told his wife about the call. His wife was cheated on in her previous marriage. Right then she labeled my friend a cheater. He fought hard for their marriage, but it was over. She didn't trust him with her heart any more.

that's a raw deal all around, but i can only expect that outcome was beneficial to both parties.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:36 pm I will freely admit though that I check out when people start talking about love languages and other stuff like that. I have limits.

Yeah, me too and it pisses off my wife to no end. Or maybe someday will be the end. I can only do what I can do, I have no interested in changing my ways because of that happy horseshit.

msduncan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:48 pm I can't convince her that my habits are fundamental changes because I want to be a good husband to her and not just because I'm selfishly wanting to keep her. The ONLY thing I can do is relentlessly do the things I always should have been doing,

I'm not a huge believer in the love languages book but I don't consider it total BS either. If her love language is acts of service I'd suggest that you use the separation to figure out some service that you can do for her that she hasn't mentioned. Then do it without making a big deal about it.

Well, this isn't what I hoped to find dropping back into OO but I wanted to say I wish everyone the absolute very best. I love seeing all the familiar names still here. I will keep my bitter stories and opinions to myself and I am glad MSD and his wife are working on things, although, part of me is upset about any number of stories like the one about someone's spouse wrecking the marriage over a phone call that Hrothgar mentioned. I know that bitterness and pain and that you will do anything to avoid it and keep the one you love and hopefully you will be successful. And that she does decide to come back and walk a path of love and balance with you.

Beginning of Day 2:

This will be the first day in 23 years that I haven't spoken to my wife.

Last night went better than I expected. I somehow moved out of the grief/crying at the drop of a hat stage sometime during the morning. I came to an odd peace by mid afternoon. My kids were having a party with people from work in our pool, so I hung out with them during the afternoon. When my wife got home she came out of her sanctuary to say hello to them (she knows some of them). I immediately got up and moved to the door -- she tried to wave me off and motion that it was ok, but I went in anyway.

By the evening a different feeling came over me. It was the following: "This freaking SUCKS. I miss hanging out, telling dumb jokes, sharing each other's day, and watching shows with my best friend/wife/companion/mate. This freakin sucks!". It wasn't a pity party -- it was a more sterile realization of that fact. I retreated inside and read some of the first book and then called it a night.

Let's see what today brings.

Please tell me to 'shut it', msduncan, if at any time you don't want me to post this stuff.


I am just going to say that, on day 1, having a pool party when the idea is for her to have 'no unplanned contact' with the family; well it seems like a bit of a crack in the plan, when her 'safe-zone' is actually the pool house.


On a more supportive note: I will say that I think you will make it through this and will grow from it (not to imply in any way I myself don't need much growth). I think there is indeed a good chance you two can eventually have a good life together again. My comments are meant to point out wrinkles that I fear could be problematic. I'm not a therapist, so I only mean to add my voice to the crowd, not give advice.

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:34 am Please tell me to 'shut it', msduncan, if at any time you don't want me to post this stuff.


I am just going to say that, on day 1, having a pool party when the idea is for her to have 'no unplanned contact' with the family; well it seems like a bit of a crack in the plan, when her 'safe-zone' is actually the pool house.


On a more supportive note: I will say that I think you will make it through this and will grow from it (not to imply in any way I myself don't need much growth). I think there is indeed a good chance you two can eventually have a good life together again. My comments are meant to point out wrinkles that I fear could be problematic. I'm not a therapist, so I only mean to add my voice to the crowd, not give advice.

I disagree. It was the kids' "party", not his. Also, I think the no-contact rule is msd/ms msd, not ms-msd/kids.

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:34 am Please tell me to 'shut it', msduncan, if at any time you don't want me to post this stuff.


I am just going to say that, on day 1, having a pool party when the idea is for her to have 'no unplanned contact' with the family; well it seems like a bit of a crack in the plan, when her 'safe-zone' is actually the pool house.


On a more supportive note: I will say that I think you will make it through this and will grow from it (not to imply in any way I myself don't need much growth). I think there is indeed a good chance you two can eventually have a good life together again. My comments are meant to point out wrinkles that I fear could be problematic. I'm not a therapist, so I only mean to add my voice to the crowd, not give advice.

Clarification: The pool house doesn't have to be used by people using the pool. They were swimming and she could have stayed in her sanctum and never come out. It's just a semi-separate place on the opposite side of the pool courthouse from the main part of the house.

And it was a big thing planned by my daughter so we couldn't really call it off.

I am so sorry to hear about your trouble. please try to be strong and life must go on.

msduncan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:55 am Clarification: The pool house doesn't have to be used by people using the pool. They were swimming and she could have stayed in her sanctum and never come out. It's just a semi-separate place on the opposite side of the pool courthouse from the main part of the house.

To be clear, I didn't suspect people were using the pool house, I guess I was suggesting she shouldn't have to come home from work and be forced to be that close to such a family social event, if the idea is that she should be freeing her mind to think about things, etc.

msduncan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:55 am And it was a big thing planned by my daughter so we couldn't really call it off.

I can see how that would make it hard to call off.

Another pure anecdote about me and what I learned about myself, not about you, that I hope may be of some benefit.

My ex-wife and I are back together. We divorced in 2007, and got back together a little over ten years later. And being apart was the single best thing that could have happened to our relationship. When we were together, I needed her. She needed me. We separated, and I had no idea how to function without her, without having her to tell about this, or vent to about that, or tell stupid inside jokes to and laugh with, or to plan dinner with, or share shows with. After some time apart, I learned how to find those things in myself that I'd so desperately needed from her. And when we got back together, the entire dynamic was different. I didn't need her. She didn't need me. We wanted to be with each other, but it wasn't a thing where we felt compelled by routine or a fear of not having each other. We were our own people, and for the first time in our lives we chose a relationship freely and out of love rather than out of need or loneliness. What I learned is that fear of not having someone isn't a sound foundation for a relationship, or for personal happiness.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:25 pm Another pure anecdote about me and what I learned about myself, not about you, that I hope may be of some benefit.

My ex-wife and I are back together. We divorced in 2007, and got back together a little over ten years later. And being apart was the single best thing that could have happened to our relationship. When we were together, I needed her. She needed me. We separated, and I had no idea how to function without her, without having her to tell about this, or vent to about that, or tell stupid inside jokes to and laugh with, or to plan dinner with, or share shows with. After some time apart, I learned how to find those things in myself that I'd so desperately needed from her. And when we got back together, the entire dynamic was different. I didn't need her. She didn't need me. We wanted to be with each other, but it wasn't a thing where we felt compelled by routine or a fear of not having each other. We were our own people, and for the first time in our lives we chose a relationship freely and out of love rather than out of need or loneliness. What I learned is that fear of not having someone isn't a sound foundation for a relationship, or for personal happiness.

I get that, but for me it's more than routine. I love the person she is and the person she was before I met her. I love her strength. Her fierce independence. Her optimism. Her drive. I love the person she fundamentally is. I'm the guy that is devoted, honest, steady, hard working, kind, considerate, empathetic. She loves to act. I love to metal detect. So we do have separate things we enjoy. We both love movies, cosplay, antiquing, the same types of humor, shows, etc. She has felt like she couldn't have freedom/spread her wings, etc without guilt or us trying to keep her from it. She should have vocalized this because I can assure you I would love for her to be able to go do things without worrying about us. She NEEDS that. It's not healthy to NOT have that. All of us also speak different love languages -- so me and the kids ALL need to start speaking her language. In talking with the kids I'm figuring out theirs, and they are different from both me AND my wife. Lots of education going on here and I'm learning a LOT about both of us AND our kids.

Anyway...I'm working hard. I hope she gives us another good shot. I don't want to reconstruct what we had -- I want to change what we are and walk this path together as equal partners and separate souls but together.

rhinohelix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:39 am Well, this isn't what I hoped to find dropping back into OO but I wanted to say I wish everyone the absolute very best. I love seeing all the familiar names still here. I will keep my bitter stories and opinions to myself and I am glad MSD and his wife are working on things, although, part of me is upset about any number of stories like the one about someone's spouse wrecking the marriage over a phone call that Hrothgar mentioned. I know that bitterness and pain and that you will do anything to avoid it and keep the one you love and hopefully you will be successful. And that she does decide to come back and walk a path of love and balance with you.

Obviously, I condensed many tough months down to the one issue they couldn't overcome. My friend wasn't a saint. He worked hard to improve himself as a man and a husband. It was painful to see that wasn't enough. His wife did work with him for a while, but once she accepted that she didn't trust him, she stopped. I'm not condemning her. She didn't cause that pain inside her. There might even be a deeper layer to that pain. I hope and pray she's able to deal with it, address it, and/or overcome it.

MSD, I had some random thoughts. Take them as you will.

Have you made a list of everything your wife does around the house and for the family? It might help you focus as well as making sure you don't fall behind while she's away.

You might want to write letters to your wife while she's gone. They probably shouldn't all be love letters. Some might be your feelings. Some might be documenting things she missed. Some might be things you like and admire about her as you've eloquently expressed here. Writing can help clarify your thoughts and feelings. If you do this, I would caution you not to just dump them on her when she comes home. If you let her know of their existence, she'll probably tell you if and when she's ready for them.

Don't forget your IRL friends. They want to help, but there's not much they can do. A good friend will be happy to listen.

Good luck.

Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.

I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.

Damn Papa Smurph, I’m so sorry hear that.

Just celebrated our 22nd anniversary. Between MSD and Smurph’s stories, I’m thinking I really need to start stepping up my game with Mrs Skinypupy.

Papa Smurph wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.

I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.

I am SO SORRY that you are going through this. Please feel free to talk to us here about it if you need to.

Hrothgar wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:44 am

rhinohelix wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:39 am Well, this isn't what I hoped to find dropping back into OO but I wanted to say I wish everyone the absolute very best. I love seeing all the familiar names still here. I will keep my bitter stories and opinions to myself and I am glad MSD and his wife are working on things, although, part of me is upset about any number of stories like the one about someone's spouse wrecking the marriage over a phone call that Hrothgar mentioned. I know that bitterness and pain and that you will do anything to avoid it and keep the one you love and hopefully you will be successful. And that she does decide to come back and walk a path of love and balance with you.

Obviously, I condensed many tough months down to the one issue they couldn't overcome. My friend wasn't a saint. He worked hard to improve himself as a man and a husband. It was painful to see that wasn't enough. His wife did work with him for a while, but once she accepted that she didn't trust him, she stopped. I'm not condemning her. She didn't cause that pain inside her. There might even be a deeper layer to that pain. I hope and pray she's able to deal with it, address it, and/or overcome it.

MSD, I had some random thoughts. Take them as you will.

Have you made a list of everything your wife does around the house and for the family? It might help you focus as well as making sure you don't fall behind while she's away.

You might want to write letters to your wife while she's gone. They probably shouldn't all be love letters. Some might be your feelings. Some might be documenting things she missed. Some might be things you like and admire about her as you've eloquently expressed here. Writing can help clarify your thoughts and feelings. If you do this, I would caution you not to just dump them on her when she comes home. If you let her know of their existence, she'll probably tell you if and when she's ready for them.

Don't forget your IRL friends. They want to help, but there's not much they can do. A good friend will be happy to listen.

Good luck.

We are both doing journals. She bought us each a journal as a part of the books she bought Monday.

Papa Smurph wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.

I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.

Sorry to hear that, sometimes life just sucks horribly.

Papa Smurph wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am Oh, MSD, I hope this works out for you. In January, my wife of 22 years asked for a divorce. I requested we seek counseling, and she said no, she was done. A month later, she had moved out to live with her new boyfriend. In a week the divorce will be legally final. It’s been the hardest time of my life. Divorce is hard enough, but my last kid heads to college this fall, and I will suddenly be all alone. I’ve looked forward to empty nesting with this lady for a decade, anticipating how great it will be to finally go on vacations some other month than July (as a simple, stupid example), and instead I’ll be empty nesting solo. Pile Coronavirus on top, and my world is in total upheaval.

I just wanted to say: I understand. You are not alone. Good luck, fight for what is best for you. And seek therapy for yourself.

So Sorry to hear this. Thinking of you.

Day 3:

We suck at contracts.

This morning I ventured outside to let the dog use the bathroom at 6 am and guess who was doing the same from her place? She smiled and said hello. It was like two neighbors meeting by chance.... and so we started having small talk by repeatedly using the term "Logistically....." (we are allowed to talk about logistics). After I went inside I texted her that 'Logistically' I was going to be sitting at the table by the pool in silence having coffee if a silent neighbor wanted to join me'. She said that logistically she would..but that she had to leave for work in 30.

Later in the day I took my truck key over to her. She was leaving on an overnight trip to see her dad. Instead of a quick in and out -- we wound up talking for 45 minutes past when she planned to leave. Just friendly talk. Talk about the books we are reading. Talking about how this contract sucks and that we can break it if nobody knows. Talk about the kids' love languages. We didn't have any negative talk at all. It was nice. I stole a couple hugs and some kisses and then she shooed me out so that she could actually leave for the trip.

We suck at contracts apparently. :p

If she decides to join me in repairing this marriage -- she needs to keep that space over there. A safe haven for her to go any time and for any length of time she wants. She also will have the freedom to spread her wings and go do things like this trip without ANY guilt whatsoever. She needs to be able to be herself and have freedom. Just random notes I'm putting in my journal tonight.

msduncan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:42 pm Instead of a quick in and out

msduncan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:42 pm Day 3:

We suck at contracts.

This morning I ventured outside to let the dog use the bathroom at 6 am and guess who was doing the same from her place? She smiled and said hello. It was like two neighbors meeting by chance.... and so we started having small talk by repeatedly using the term "Logistically....." (we are allowed to talk about logistics). After I went inside I texted her that 'Logistically' I was going to be sitting at the table by the pool in silence having coffee if a silent neighbor wanted to join me'. She said that logistically she would..but that she had to leave for work in 30.

Later in the day I took my truck key over to her. She was leaving on an overnight trip to see her dad. Instead of a quick in and out -- we wound up talking for 45 minutes past when she planned to leave. Just friendly talk. Talk about the books we are reading. Talking about how this contract sucks and that we can break it if nobody knows. Talk about the kids' love languages. We didn't have any negative talk at all. It was nice. I stole a couple hugs and some kisses and then she shooed me out so that she could actually leave for the trip.

We suck at contracts apparently. :p

If she decides to join me in repairing this marriage -- she needs to keep that space over there. A safe haven for her to go any time and for any length of time she wants. She also will have the freedom to spread her wings and go do things like this trip without ANY guilt whatsoever. She needs to be able to be herself and have freedom. Just random notes I'm putting in my journal tonight.

I get that this feels good, and that it's a relief from the despair you must be feeling, but as much as it's possible to "know" what's going on with two third parties that I don't really know, y'all are doing what's easy, not doing the hard work that's going to either make this succeed or make it honestly fail (if that's what's best for one of you). I've been where your wife is. I'm sure she really cares about you, and I'm sure she knows how much pain her needs are causing you, and I'm sure more than anything that she wishes she could have her needs met while not causing you an ounce of pain. I'm equally sure that for her to get to the point where she seriously wanted out of her marriage, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a pretend separation into another room and a weekend away with some friends. She needs to make the choice to come back to you *because that's where she wants to be for the rest of her life*, not because it's a "quick fix" return to the same comfortable "normal" that she was ready to leave over a week ago.

It's wrong of her to upend your family's life, and then refuse to do the hard searching that she needs to do. But you're not doing yourself (or her, or your marriage, or your family) any favors by allowing her to dodge the responsibility to conduct this self examination that she needed.

Here's the reality. Not long ago, she took stock of the past xx years of your life together and told you that it was deeply unsatisfying. People don't do that because their partners don't do the dishes enough, but y'all have decided to disregard the therapist's suggestion because it's easier and doesn't hurt as much. If you don't address the problem, you may find things get easier for a month, or a year, or a few years. But this is going to happen again. I beg you both - do the work (even though it feels like s**t).

geezer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:26 pm

msduncan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:42 pm Day 3:

We suck at contracts.

This morning I ventured outside to let the dog use the bathroom at 6 am and guess who was doing the same from her place? She smiled and said hello. It was like two neighbors meeting by chance.... and so we started having small talk by repeatedly using the term "Logistically....." (we are allowed to talk about logistics). After I went inside I texted her that 'Logistically' I was going to be sitting at the table by the pool in silence having coffee if a silent neighbor wanted to join me'. She said that logistically she would..but that she had to leave for work in 30.

Later in the day I took my truck key over to her. She was leaving on an overnight trip to see her dad. Instead of a quick in and out -- we wound up talking for 45 minutes past when she planned to leave. Just friendly talk. Talk about the books we are reading. Talking about how this contract sucks and that we can break it if nobody knows. Talk about the kids' love languages. We didn't have any negative talk at all. It was nice. I stole a couple hugs and some kisses and then she shooed me out so that she could actually leave for the trip.

We suck at contracts apparently. :p

If she decides to join me in repairing this marriage -- she needs to keep that space over there. A safe haven for her to go any time and for any length of time she wants. She also will have the freedom to spread her wings and go do things like this trip without ANY guilt whatsoever. She needs to be able to be herself and have freedom. Just random notes I'm putting in my journal tonight.

I get that this feels good, and that it's a relief from the despair you must be feeling, but as much as it's possible to "know" what's going on with two third parties that I don't really know, y'all are doing what's easy, not doing the hard work that's going to either make this succeed or make it honestly fail (if that's what's best for one of you). I've been where your wife is. I'm sure she really cares about you, and I'm sure she knows how much her needs are causing you, and I'm sure more than anything that she wishes she could have her needs met while not causing you an ounce of pain. I'm equally sure that for her to get to the point where she seriously wanted out of her marriage, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a pretend separation into another room and a weekend away with some friends. She needs to make the choice to come back to you *because that's where she wants to be for the rest of her life*, not because it's a "quick fix" return to the same comfortable "normal" that she was ready to leave over a week ago.

It's wrong of her to upend your family's life, and then refuse to do the hard searching that she needs to do. But you're not doing yourself (or her, or your marriage, or your family) any favors by allowing her to dodge the responsibility to conduct this self examination that she needed.

Here's the reality. Not long ago, she took stock of the past xx years of your life together and told you that it was deeply unsatisfying. People don't do that because their partners don't do the dishes enough, but y'all have decided to disregard the therapist's suggestion because it's easier and doesn't hurt as much. If you don't address the problem, you may find things get easier for a month, or a year, or a few years. But this is going to happen again. I beg you both - do the work (even though it feels like s**t).

I can assure you that we are both putting in the work. I have counseling sessions scheduled (individual). She does too. We are working through books on Love Languages, Communication, and a stack of others. We are keeping journals of our thoughts and feelings, etc. She's staying over there and for the most part (until today) I'm letting her have the space she needs. She is scheduled to attend church with us Sunday (sanctioned by counselor). I bid her farewell today for her trip and left her alone - giving her the space she desires.

We both just completely missed our confidants/best friends/etc today and paused for just a few minutes. We are pushing forward with the therapy. No worries.

Part of the point is for the separation to hurt and you both to dispel the notion of “the grass is greener.”

If you can’t do the work for 3 days, you’re not going to change. You’re going to cheat on therapy. You’ll fall into the same routine and it’ll be worse because you think you’ve done the work.

Excuse me if I am misremembering but wasn't a big part of her unhappiness the fact that she felt unappreciated and overworked? Right now it sounds like you guys are both in vacation mode and vacations are when we get away from the work required in day to day living. So you are both see the qualities that got you together in the first place without needing to worry about the things that were causing friction. You even get a little bit extra in that you can feel slightly transgressive by cheating on your contract!

I don't have any good advice. Unlike some other people I think that your weirdly vacation like separation might be beneficial if you can really talk at the end and make changes. On the other hand I think you would be more likely to make the changes if you had a real separation.

You guys have one job right now. No contact. That's the hard work.

I’m not going to tell you what to do, I obviously don’t have a clue. I just know that I wasn’t given a chance to make things better. I spent 22 years building a family, and then she tore it down in 2 months, without a second thought. My daughter is trying to take care of ME! I’m the one that is supposed to be a grown man, my JOB is to take care of HER! I’m broken, in ways I never knew possible. I cry at the drop of a hat, several times every day. I struggle to focus on anything. I’m rearranging the house, to rid me of her and the last 22 years. My kids are getting ready for college in a month, and then what I thought was going to be the best time of my life will become the worst time of my life. Instead of enjoying my new-found freedom with my wife, I’m going to be alone. So, whatever you do, don’t end up like me. Ok?