The Viral Economy

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Max Peck
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Max Peck »

I dropped out of university after two years, back in the early '80s. IIRC, one year's tuition then was a little under CAD $1000. It looks like it would run to about $7000 now. My total student loan debt ran to about $200.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by coopasonic »

Give me two more years and I'll find out what it's like around here. Still no idea what my 10th grader wants to do or where he'll go. As long as he isn't going Ivy League we'll pay for it.

My wife and I both went to private schools in the early 90s and paid reasonable amounts. My loans were paid off in about 6 years (but I was starting a career as a programmer as the internet caught on) and she never had any.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

coopasonic wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:45 pm Give me two more years and I'll find out what it's like around here. Still no idea what my 10th grader wants to do or where he'll go. As long as he isn't going Ivy League we'll pay for it.

My wife and I both went to private schools in the early 90s and paid reasonable amounts. My loans were paid off in about 6 years (but I was starting a career as a programmer as the internet caught on) and she never had any.
Something I learned when talking to a college finance pro...the top Ivy Leagues are mostly free because anyone that gets accepted is almost always on a free ride (undergrad). IIRC.

I was blown away by that, just assumed that Yale and Harvard had to be absurdly expensive. And they don't give academic scholarships...they are all need-based.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Kraken »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:24 pm Something I learned when talking to a college finance pro...the top Ivy Leagues are mostly free because anyone that gets accepted is almost always on a free ride (undergrad). IIRC.
That's true at MIT, too. Something like 75% of undergrads earn a free ride by virtue of being smart and dedicated. This is why universities love foreign students, who are also smart and dedicated but generally pay full freight.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

This goes back to the endowments. They are more investment banks with an educational mission attached than the other way around now. Maybe they don't get paid up front but donations roll in on the back end aplenty.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Zarathud »

malchior wrote:This goes back to the endowments. They are more investment banks with an educational mission attached than the other way around now. Maybe they don't get paid up front but donations roll in on the back end aplenty.
This is exactly the case. The Ivy Leagues provide access to financial success that their alumni repay later in life — partly because participation gains access to other alumni which leads to further business/social benefits.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Zarathud wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:11 am
malchior wrote:This goes back to the endowments. They are more investment banks with an educational mission attached than the other way around now. Maybe they don't get paid up front but donations roll in on the back end aplenty.
This is exactly the case. The Ivy Leagues provide access to financial success that their alumni repay later in life — partly because participation gains access to other alumni which leads to further business/social benefits.
Their tuitions are largely ceremonial but they do set the standard.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Smoove_B »

I've been following the Shanghai lock down (as you'd expect), and it's finally starting to occur to people that it might cause bigger problems:
China has in the last few weeks been battling its most severe Covid outbreak on the mainland since the initial shock of the pandemic in early 2020.

"China is very vulnerable right now," said Rob Subbaraman, chief economist and head of global markets Research for Asia ex-Japan at Nomura.

Referring to Nomura's survey on the extent of the lockdowns across China, he said: "If we look at provinces where there's partial or full lockdowns we estimate it covers around 40% … of China's GDP."

...

"The problem Beijing has got is right across the country — not just Shanghai but down in the south in Guangzhou and of course, up in Jilin where there's been a lot of manufacturing," Martin said.

Local officials are "closing down entire cities" due to fear of punishment from Beijing if there's a Covid outbreak in their jurisdictions, he added.

Supply disruptions are happening at a increasingly rapid rate right now, Subbaraman said. "We think China's retail sales will probably fall outright in March, China is looking extremely weak right now and really needs more policy stimulus," he added.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: The Viral Economy

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The more serious question is what impact does this have on my board game kickstarters?
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Smoove_B »

coopasonic wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:15 pm The more serious question is what impact does this have on my board game kickstarters?
Any of them located in impacted regions are absolutely delayed. I have quite a few that I know are now stuck in limbo because of it - manufacturing or shipping has completely stopped.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Border agencies, truckers, leaders blast 'unnecessary' increased inspections stymying commerce
Gov. Greg Abbott lifted enhanced inspections at one border crossing Wednesday, after Nuevo León Governor Samuel García agreed to establish checkpoints and patrols to prevent unauthorized border crossings into Texas.

But truckers continued to wait hours to cross at the Ysleta and the Bridge of the Americas ports of entry in El Paso.

Truckers said they usually spend two or three hours crossing into El Paso from Juárez. After Gov. Greg Abbott announced new Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) trooper inspections at ports of entry, truckers this week suddenly found themselves in 10-plus hour lines.
Nick Delgado, president and owner of Quality Food and Veg, one of El Paso’s largest produce distributors, said trucks hauling produce from Mexico for his company have seen delays of 10 hours to two days in the McAllen and Hidalgo areas because of the extra Texas inspections.

“We have truckloads every day crossing” from Mexico into Texas with avocados, tomatoes, and other produce that are sold to grocery stores, restaurants, schools, and other institutions, he said.

“If this goes on, it will dry up supplies and we won’t be able to get it in,” Delgado said. “This will hurt the food chain. Consumers will start seeing shortages,” and that also will cause prices to increase, Delgado said.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:18 pm
coopasonic wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:15 pm The more serious question is what impact does this have on my board game kickstarters?
Any of them located in impacted regions are absolutely delayed. I have quite a few that I know are now stuck in limbo because of it - manufacturing or shipping has completely stopped.
Seeing the same in my pipeline of updates. I do have one gaming coming (They Live: Assault on Cable 54! - oh man!) that got out just in time before the lock downs. It hit the tight window between Chinese New Year and this surge.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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I assume Coop was joking…right?
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Max Peck »

My assumption is that "more serious" was a joke but that the impact on Kickstarter projects such as board games is real due to the manufacturing being in China for the most part.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by coopasonic »

Max Peck wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:46 am My assumption is that "more serious" was a joke but that the impact on Kickstarter projects such as board games is real due to the manufacturing being in China for the most part.
Yeah, that.

It kind of also points to my privilege. This is basically the only near term impact the economic issues are having on me. I mean yeah, stuff costs more but the difference isn't enough to impact me in a meaningful way.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Yeah it comes down to what people feel as impact. Privilege is a great way of putting it. When China is producing an 1/8 of world steel and 42% of US electronic imports it has impact but those of us with the ability to absorb it see little personal impact.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Max Peck »

+1

I do my best to keep in mind that my pandemic experience is one of great privilege. I'm retired and financially secure, so I don't need to go out and risk infection day in and day out to pay the rent and put food on the table. I don't have any kids, so that's a whole world of stress that doesn't directly impact me (although I have friends and family with children, and I do worry about them, but it isn't remotely the same as what parents go through). While I do see inflation and occasional bubbles of scarcity, it's never been more than a minor inconvenience.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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It sure seems like this shouldn't be a thing. 1 state elected this idiot and 47 others suffer (I'm assuming Hawai'i and Alaska don't have to worry about this).
San Francisco CNN

A weeklong protest by Texas Gov. Greg Abbott against President Biden’s recent immigration policy reached a resolution on Friday, but the gridlock it created has resulted in hundreds of millions of lost dollars and delays in shipments of everything from avocados to automobile parts that will have a longer-term impact.

On Friday, Abbott reversed course on an order he put in place last week that required lengthier “enhanced safety inspections” of commercial vehicles entering Texas. The efforts, he said, were to help stop the flow of illegal contraband and human trafficking.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Kraken wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:29 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:24 pm Something I learned when talking to a college finance pro...the top Ivy Leagues are mostly free because anyone that gets accepted is almost always on a free ride (undergrad). IIRC.
That's true at MIT, too. Something like 75% of undergrads earn a free ride by virtue of being smart and dedicated.
I know I'm a late response. I also know I have a very privileged response. But I hate how that information is always presented!

Everyone says if your family makes under so much a year you won't pay anything. This is not strictly true as there are generally net worth limits also (that do not count retirement accounts). Early on pre-kids we put money in mutual funds above and beyond the IRA limits. We're frugal people and really saw no need to inflate our lifestyle right after college. 20 years later as we planned for our first kid's college we learned that even with one teacher's income we weren't going to qualify for any sort of tuition break because those mutual funds had done well over the years.

There were many people who needed the break more than we did but it still felt like a slap in the face for attempting to be responsible with our finances.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I’m not getting you. The hate is directed at what presentation exactly?

Or you’re upset that they turned down your kid (assumption) bc you had racked up too much $$ in an IRA?
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Madmarcus »

Prior to our daughter heading off to college there was a ton of information floating around about colleges waving all tuition for people who made under $X per year. We were, and are, a one income household with a public school teacher in GA as the income. Even with our investment income we were under the numbers being thrown around. She got into colleges with such policies yet we were told we didn't meet the criteria because we had savings outside of strictly retirement accounts.

In one sense I simply dislike the incorrect message. In reality this is minor. It's simply a "some additional conditions may apply" in small font situation but it still bugs me.

On the other hand I think it is a much bigger deal that I was slapped on the wrist for saving. My reward for saving for my retirement outside of directly protected accounts was to be hit with additional costs that I wouldn't have had to pay if I hadn't saved.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Madmarcus »

Now I'm making way too much of this but I was thinking about it as I walked to school. :D I don't mind having paid for my kid's college in the same way I don't mind paying for my car. My kids had options at various price points and we chose one that we could agree on.

in the end maybe the wording is the most important point even though I waved it off as me being picky. It normalizes the idea that saving is impossible. All anyone should care about is income because of course you are going to be spending all of your income. We don't even need to mention the possibility of someone with a median household income having savings.

I know that statistically that's more or less correct. I know that our early savings rate was really abnormally high. I know we started saving really early. I know that we were some combination of lucky and disciplined to never need to (or chose to) use the savings prior to the kids going to college. I know that my middle class preference for delaying gratification shouldn't be taken as a given. But I still feel that society would collectively better off if we normalized and incentivized LBYM and long term savings.

Sorry for three longish posts just because I used the word hate instead of "am annoyed by".
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I'm not personally hung up on the word hate, I know what you meant. Just trying to understand because with three kids about to start college approximately 2 years apart, I want to make sure I fully comprehend what seems to be a cautionary tale.

Perhaps I should move any savings into a ROTH or other IRA account (hell, even a 529 if they still have those) before they start to avoid the mess you went through.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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When you complete the FAFSA you will be asked about your net worth. There are assets that are added in and others not to that net worth to determine eligibility for financial aid.

Not added into net worth: Primary home equity, any retirement account balance, cash values of insurance policies, etc. Essentially assets you wouldn't be expected to liquidate to pay for a child's education.

Added into net worth: Cash, stocks or mutual funds outside in non-retirement accounts, bonds, business ownership/income, etc.

If I'm getting Madmarcus's situation correctly he had mutual funds in a brokerage account. They factored into net worth. The government expects that those are liquid assets eligible to be used as payment for a college education by a parent. It does to his point invite a bit of moral hazard that disincentivizes certain forms of saving.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Madmarcus »

Ok, I apologize then! I misread your response and thought you were complaining about my entitled attitude!

It's a little hazy now (she started college eight years ago) but as I remember it there wasn't much we could do. By the time we knew of the problem we couldn't feasibly move hundreds of thousands from random mutual funds to retirement or 529 accounts because of yearly contribution limits. There were the jokes about how colleges looked at financial assets but not physical assets so maybe we should buy something big and then resell it but it was never a serious thought.

In the end it was sort of like taxes; having to pay did mean that we had the money which is generally better than not having the money.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Isgrimnur »

Expecting the parents to liquidate assets to pay for the kids' college is a bullshit assumption.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ly/501818/
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Madmarcus »

malchior wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:41 pm If I'm getting Madmarcus's situation correctly he had mutual funds in a brokerage account. They factored into net worth. The government expects that those are liquid assets eligible to be used as payment for a college education by a parent. It does to his point invite a bit of moral hazard that disincentivizes certain forms of saving.
Spot on. With the added annoyance factor that started these posts being that many private colleges have claims that anyone making less than $X will not have to pay tuition. We found that those claims were partially marketing hype in that at least some colleges made such a claim but used a measure of net worth similar to the FAFSA in addition to purely income measures.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Max Peck »

How old does a child need to be before the system doesn't expect the parents to pay for their children's post-secondary education?

I had sort of a flip-side issue when I was in university. For all intents and purposes I couldn't get approved for a student loan because my father's income/assets were too high, despite the fact that I wasn't receiving any financial support from him. I tried to push back on that and in the end they finally approved me for a whopping $200 loan, which did at least pay for a few textbooks. When I dropped out after my second year I made a point of taking the maximum allowable time to pay off the loan, just on principle. :lol:
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:23 pm Expecting the parents to liquidate assets to pay for the kids' college is a bullshit assumption.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ly/501818/
When I worked in education I saw how blinkeringly stupid this was. I knew kids who had parents who refused to do a FAFSA. Outcome? No financial aid at all. No grants. No PLUS loan. Unsubsidized loans, private scholarships, and private loans only. It was uncommon but I always prioritized them for the higher paying campus job I offered (student helpdesk). They needed the help the most.
Last edited by malchior on Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Max Peck wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:58 pm How old does a child need to be before the system doesn't expect the parents to pay for their children's post-secondary education?
In the US, you have to wait until you are 24. It's bullshit.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by stessier »

malchior wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:09 am
Max Peck wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:58 pm How old does a child need to be before the system doesn't expect the parents to pay for their children's post-secondary education?
In the US, you have to wait until you are 24. It's bullshit.
Unless you get emancipated - I think you have to prove no parental support for 24 months.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:09 am
Max Peck wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:58 pm How old does a child need to be before the system doesn't expect the parents to pay for their children's post-secondary education?
In the US, you have to wait until you are 24. It's bullshit.
Wow, that's crazy. I'm thinking of a situation where a kid/parent relationship is terrible, say not even on speaking terms. Parents have money. Kid wants to go to college.

Kid is basically screwed, right? (unless he/she wants to file for emancipation and wait 2 years?!).
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LordMortis »

I'm surprised this is a surprise. It's never been right, but it was this way at least since 88 when I went started college and I believe it was that way at least since 82 when my eldest sister went the military route. My parents were a single income blue collar family that got by through keeping a backyard farm, reusing/repurposing, hunting, and preserving. Dad's wage was enough to keep anyone from getting any sort of aid. All their kids went to work at an early age to start saving for a car, let alone college.

I guess one bonus is that none of us got through it with college debt. We didn't even qualify for (deferral subsidized) loans much less free money. *shrug*. We could get unsubsidized loans at 9% that began accruing at the time of the loan. That was a nope. Working student living at home, it was.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:50 am
malchior wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:09 am
Max Peck wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:58 pm How old does a child need to be before the system doesn't expect the parents to pay for their children's post-secondary education?
In the US, you have to wait until you are 24. It's bullshit.
Wow, that's crazy. I'm thinking of a situation where a kid/parent relationship is terrible, say not even on speaking terms. Parents have money. Kid wants to go to college.

Kid is basically screwed, right? (unless he/she wants to file for emancipation and wait 2 years?!).
Right. Emancipation or getting married are ways around the issue. Though emancipation is not typical or I'd guess an inexpensive option. In most cases, you either have to prove independence in very narrow way or have a reason that the parent can not provide information. The most common being an incarcerated parent but an invalid parent is another way forward.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Octavious »

I look forward to dealing with college stuff for the kiddo in the next two years. I'm pretty sure I'm in the magical bubble where I will qualify for nothing. My wife's former boss works under the table so has like almost no reported income. Her kid got a full ride to college. I will not be that lucky. :P
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Madmarcus »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:23 pm Expecting the parents to liquidate assets to pay for the kids' college is a bullshit assumption.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/a ... ly/501818/
Yes, everything about paying for college is a mess. Arcane rules, unneeded restrictions, arbitrary cut offs, and weird distortions of the whole thing based on perceptions about status and peer pressure. I'd love to see it all scrapped and replaced with a simple, straightforward process but I suspect that like the idea of a flat tax there is no way to make it progressive enough to be acceptable many without keeping a bunch of rules.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Imagine a country that values education enough that they offer it to their citizens for free.

Ha! Impossible. No country could pull that off. It’s not like we are one of those country club, wealthy countries or anything!
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Freyland »

C'mon! Free education might allow the unwashed masses a leg up. Stop making jokes!
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Max Peck »

Huh. TIL that there are countries with free college for international students.
Anyone who lives in the United States and other areas with college tuition costs knows just how expensive attending a higher education institute can be. A student can spend tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to attend college, offset with grants and scholarships. However, many of these students have to take on student loans, paying hundreds of dollars each month over a long period of time to fund their education.

However, there are countries where there is no cost for attending college. Many of these countries are democratic socialist states. Residents of these nations can receive their education for free along with other essential services provided by the government, such as health care. Residents from the United States and other countries with high college tuition costs study abroad to take advantage of these opportunities.

These countries offer free tuition to its own residents, but several countries offer free tuition to international students. In many cases, college courses are available for free, but they are taught only in the country’s native language. All nations that offer free college to international students are:
  • Brazil: Classes are taught in Portuguese
  • Czech Republic: Classes taught in the Czech language are free
  • Finland
  • France: Free classes available to European Union citizens
  • Germany
  • Greece: Classes are taught in Greek
  • Iceland
  • Kenya: Free tuition available to high-scoring secondary school students
  • Luxembourg
  • Norway: Tuition is free, but living expenses come at a very high cost
  • Panama
  • Slovenia: Free education for EU citizens
  • Sweden: Free education for EU citizens
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by gbasden »

Freyland wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:36 am C'mon! Free education might allow the unwashed masses a leg up. Stop making jokes!
Investing in your citizenry is socialism! How dare you suggest that helping people is any part of legitimate government function!
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