Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Kurth]

US congressman Andy Ogles supported genocide when asked about US bombs kill Palestinian children?

Come on. Seriously? I don’t know Ogles, and I suspect he is probably a piece of shit. But that was clearly sarcasm in response to the woman who was aggressively questioning him about civilian deaths in Gaza. His quote was, “Fine. I think we should kill them all. Is that what you want to hear?”

[gbasden]

US congressman Andy Ogles supported genocide when asked about US bombs kill Palestinian children?

Come on. Seriously? I don’t know Ogles, and I suspect he is probably a piece of shit. But that was clearly sarcasm in response to the woman who was aggressively questioning him about civilian deaths in Gaza. His quote was, “Fine. I think we should kill them all. Is that what you want to hear?”

I mean, what would be awesome would be some sort of thoughtful policy that balances Israel's right to defend itself against carpet bombing civilians. But I've given up on hoping for that. And given that Andy Ogles is indeed, a piece of shit, I'm not convinced he wouldn't be fine with what he said.

[Victoria Raverna]

Second incident. There was one in front of Atlanta consulate last December.

[Victoria Raverna]

US congressman Andy Ogles supported genocide when asked about US bombs kill Palestinian children?

Come on. Seriously? I don’t know Ogles, and I suspect he is probably a piece of shit. But that was clearly sarcasm in response to the woman who was aggressively questioning him about civilian deaths in Gaza. His quote was, “Fine. I think we should kill them all. Is that what you want to hear?”

When people are protesting about killing of Palestinian children, is it acceptable to you to joke about killing them all?

[Isgrimnur]

[Dogstar]

Updates:

US Air Force man dies after lighting himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy after stating he won't be complicit in genocide.

Israeli forces hit Doctors Without Borders shelter, even though it was clearly marked, killing two and wounding more.

Israel continues in its efforts to settle/colonize/gentrify the West Bank in response to violence there with another 3300 homes. Seriously, I don't know what language to use to describe efforts to build there. Great timing with this given events in Gaza.

NYT apparently hired a freelancer to report on on the Oct. 7 attacks and the Israeli response who apparently has a strong bias towards Israel Among other things, she's listed as a writer and director at an Israeli state-owned media outlet.

Palestinian Prime Minister (Palestinian Authority) and his government resign in response to the situation in West Bank and Gaza.

[LawBeefaroni]

Israel is getting what they want, the rest of the world be damned. Better to never ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In the post-2016 world this is called winning.

[Victoria Raverna]

[Victoria Raverna]

112 killed, over 700 injured.

[Holman]

Israel is getting what they want, the rest of the world be damned. Better to never ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In the post-2016 world this is called winning.

How does Israel get what they want after they alienate their US and European support?

I'm serious. I believe in Israel's right to exist, but I think Netanyahu is bleeding it dry for his own personal purposes. His victims are not just Palestinians but Israelis too.

[waitingtoconnect]

Netanyahu is compared to Trump but the reality is he’s more like Israelis unimpeached Richard Nixon.

He opposed Rabins peace attempts in 1995 and helped foster an atmosphere that led to Rabins assassination. As prime minister he’s been involved in scandals that will see him tried in court.

The longer the war goes on the longer he delays his inevitable trial. So he will do anything to stay in power as long as he can so he can dismantle the Israeli justice system to save himself.

Keeping this war going is in his personal interest.

[Pyperkub]

He also undermined the 2 state solution for decades.

[Victoria Raverna]

Feel free to ignore if you don't want to watch video from Al Jazeera. Compilation of videos and photos made by Israeli soldiers:

[Unagi]

I don't mind if you share the videos, but I wonder if anyone really needs to be convinced the IDF is doing absolutely horrible things.

And - as has been stated by others above - I believe the horrible things they are doing are going to also be horrible things for Israel's future relationships.

[gbasden]

I don't mind if you share the videos, but I wonder if anyone really needs to be convinced the IDF is doing absolutely horrible things.

And - as has been stated by others above - I believe the horrible things they are doing are going to also be horrible things for Israel's future relationships.

I mean, yes? Many people on this forum seem to believe that Israel is acting in completely normal and morally justifiable ways, to my befuddlement.

[Alefroth]

Many?

[hepcat]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th. There has been one, exactly one, forum member who didn’t clearly state that Israel has gone too far at some point. The overwhelming majority of posters that you seem to believe are trying to justify Israel’s reaction as perfectly reasonable are usually railing against Netanyahu for it. Or simply trying to understand why Israel is openly committing so many in the months following the attacks.

Christ, this is why I had stopped posting in this thread a while back. Camps were made up early and then any attempt to ask a question or make a statement that wasn’t perceived as 100 percent outrage against Israel were shouted down and the issuer declared a baby killer in not so many words.

“I wonder what Israel hopes to gain from this?” is NOT the same as “Kill all the Palestinians!”.

[GreenGoo]

Christ, this is why I had stopped posting in this thread a while back. Camps were made up early and then any attempt to ask a question or make a statement that wasn’t perceived as 100 percent outrage against Israel were shouted down and the issuer declared a baby killer in not so many words.

Imagine what it's like for conservatives trying to participate on this forum (in general, not specific to this thread).

In any case, I agree with your viewpoint.

[hepcat]

Yes, this is a left leaning board. That's just how it worked out. But the majority of posters here, if met with a good faith effort to discuss the opposite side of things, will react accordingly.

What we do have though is a few hard right posters who like to troll. A quick search shows even you yourself have clashed with folks like em2 who just like to hurl racist and/or misogynistic epithets into the mix to get people riled up. Those are the ones who generally are met with vitriol.

However, I will admit that Trump and Trumpers are routinely bashed here. But if Trump were a man who showed respect to anyone but himself, or displayed even basic decorum, that might not have started. He made his bed. His supporters then climbed in with him.

[GreenGoo]

My comment wasn't directed at you specifically (I did say I agreed with you on your main point), but I thought it piggy backed your point well. It's not even a criticism, really.

We have few conservatives still here because most have left. No, we didn't run them out of town, but you can only hang around people who's ideas you despise for so long.

Even if the hypothetical conservative were to engage in honest discourse, he still needs to contend with 10+ people refuting his posts, while being alone without anyone else supporting him. It's fatiguing. Eventually people just stop posting. That's just the nature of being surrounded by a different world view. They don't change their viewpoint (well, YK being an exception I suppose ) they just leave. And it's not a weakness of character, it's simply fatigue and frustration and being surrounded by disagreement.

In any case, it wasn't a criticism of you Hep, or the forum in general. Just an observation I've been thinking about for awhile now.

And the forum isn't even *radically* liberal. It's barely left leaning compared to the rest of the world. It's slightly left of center for the US. But slightly left of center is still wildly left of extreme right. Just more observations.

[LawBeefaroni]

Israel is getting what they want, the rest of the world be damned. Better to never ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In the post-2016 world this is called winning.

How does Israel get what they want after they alienate their US and European support?

I'm serious. I believe in Israel's right to exist, but I think Netanyahu is bleeding it dry for his own personal purposes. His victims are not just Palestinians but Israelis too.

When I say "Israel" I mean their leadership.

They want short term gains. Keep power, stay out of jail. And their gamble is that US and Eurpope won't abandon them. Which we probably won't. They are too important a strategic ally.

[MCQueen2]

Israel is getting what they want, the rest of the world be damned. Better to never ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In the post-2016 world this is called winning.

How does Israel get what they want after they alienate their US and European support?

I'm serious. I believe in Israel's right to exist, but I think Netanyahu is bleeding it dry for his own personal purposes. His victims are not just Palestinians but Israelis too.

When I say "Israel" I mean their leadership.

They want short term gains. Keep power, stay out of jail. And their gamble is that US and Eurpope won't abandon them. Which we probably won't. They are too important a strategic ally.

Can you tell me how is it a strategic ally? Because of it's position in the middle east? I cannot think of anything else

[Pyperkub]

Israel is getting what they want, the rest of the world be damned. Better to never ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In the post-2016 world this is called winning.

How does Israel get what they want after they alienate their US and European support?

I'm serious. I believe in Israel's right to exist, but I think Netanyahu is bleeding it dry for his own personal purposes. His victims are not just Palestinians but Israelis too.

When I say "Israel" I mean their leadership.

They want short term gains. Keep power, stay out of jail. And their gamble is that US and Eurpope won't abandon them. Which we probably won't. They are too important a strategic ally.

Can you tell me how is it a strategic ally? Because of it's position in the middle east? I cannot think of anything else

Also pretty much the only country in that region which, prior to Netanyahu, generally shared our values - generally democratic, women aren't viewed as chattel, etc.

[LawBeefaroni]

Yes, its location in the Middle East.

Being a top 30 GDP doesn't hurt.

[MCQueen2]

Ahh, it makes, I didn't bother to know this, now I will know, thanks

[gbasden]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

[Kraken]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

I think most of us sided with Israel in the early days after Hamas's attack, but that support gradually fell away as Israel's revenge unfolded.

[Pyperkub]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

I think most of us sided with Israel in the early days after Hamas's attack, but that support gradually fell away as Israel's revenge unfolded.

TBH, while my support for Netanyahu is 100% negative, I still support Israel far more than Hamas and other Palestinian Leadership. Oct 7 is still just another step from Munich and other PLO terror, tho I seriously blame Netanyahu for undermining the 2-state solution and pretty much daring Hamas to do it (and apparently enabling it as well). The powers that be in both Israel and Palestinian leadership have been undermining the 2-state peace for decades, and until both sides commit to it or another solution, they will both continue to barrel forward in their death spiral.

Israel needs to boot the corrupt Netanyahu/Likud regime, and the palestinians need to boot all the corrupt, terror embracing factions before any peace process will have any realistic chance of success.

And given that the US could well be on the precipice of a Trump administration which will take an active part in Netanyahu's atrocities, I wouldn't count on the US to be a productive facilitator. Especially as the GOP in the Senate will kill any US Peace Treaties which could bind a Trump Administration.

[Kraken]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

I think most of us sided with Israel in the early days after Hamas's attack, but that support gradually fell away as Israel's revenge unfolded.

TBH, while my support for Netanyahu is 100% negative, I still support Israel far more than Hamas and other Palestinian Leadership.

Same. Israel has a legitimate need to obliterate Hamas. Leveling Gaza, killing 30k civilians and counting, and creating a humanitarian crisis is, if you'll pardon the expression, overkill. I don't think anybody here is defending war crimes or borderline genocide.

I have one real-life friend who's very Jewish. Like, she'll mention it within five minutes of meeting someone and reminds you of it frequently. Being a Jew is central to her identity. I've had to avoid interacting with her on Facebook because her support for Israel is absolute and any criticism is antisemitic. She is the *only* person I know, online or IRL, who has no sympathy whatsoever for Palestinians.

[Kurth]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

I think most of us sided with Israel in the early days after Hamas's attack, but that support gradually fell away as Israel's revenge unfolded.

TBH, while my support for Netanyahu is 100% negative, I still support Israel far more than Hamas and other Palestinian Leadership.

Same. Israel has a legitimate need to obliterate Hamas. Leveling Gaza, killing 30k civilians and counting, and creating a humanitarian crisis is, if you'll pardon the expression, overkill. I don't think anybody here is defending war crimes or borderline genocide.

I have one real-life friend who's very Jewish. Like, she'll mention it within five minutes of meeting someone and reminds you of it frequently. Being a Jew is central to her identity. I've had to avoid interacting with her on Facebook because her support for Israel is absolute and any criticism is antisemitic. She is the *only* person I know, online or IRL, who has no sympathy whatsoever for Palestinians.

+1 to this. Also, is your friend my father-in-law??? I may have to adjust his pronouns.

[Edited to say that I regret doing my father-in-law dirty like that. He's actually a really good guy in most respects and would certainly express sympathy for the people in Gaza suffering right now. He might not concede that they are "Palestinian" because he believes the Palestinian people are a fiction, and he would certainly lay all blame for their suffering at the feet of Hamas and not Israel, but he's not an unfeeling monster.]

[UsulofDoom]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

[Kurth]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.

[Alefroth]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

Just so it's clear, are you excusing Israel's actions?

[LawBeefaroni]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.

Also, 3+ years of world fucking war. It wasn't one step from Pearl Harbor to fire bombing Tokyo.

[Pyperkub]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

I think most of us sided with Israel in the early days after Hamas's attack, but that support gradually fell away as Israel's revenge unfolded.

TBH, while my support for Netanyahu is 100% negative, I still support Israel far more than Hamas and other Palestinian Leadership.

Same. Israel has a legitimate need to obliterate Hamas. Leveling Gaza, killing 30k civilians and counting, and creating a humanitarian crisis is, if you'll pardon the expression, overkill. I don't think anybody here is defending war crimes or borderline genocide.

I have one real-life friend who's very Jewish. Like, she'll mention it within five minutes of meeting someone and reminds you of it frequently. Being a Jew is central to her identity. I've had to avoid interacting with her on Facebook because her support for Israel is absolute and any criticism is antisemitic. She is the *only* person I know, online or IRL, who has no sympathy whatsoever for Palestinians.

+1 to this. Also, is your friend my father-in-law??? I may have to adjust his pronouns.

[Edited to say that I regret doing my father-in-law dirty like that. He's actually a really good guy in most respects and would certainly express sympathy for the people in Gaza suffering right now. He might not concede that they are "Palestinian" because he believes the Palestinian people are a fiction, and he would certainly lay all blame for their suffering at the feet of Hamas and not Israel, but he's not an unfeeling monster.]

And, TBH, both may have known people directly impacted on Oct 7 (could even have been family). That does make a difference.

[Blackhawk]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

Imagine what could have been done differently if military technology had had another ~80 years to develop!

[Holman]

The whole point of the Geneva Conventions was to *prevent* the kind of wholesale slaughter of civilians that was seen on all sides and in all theaters in WW2.

Maybe ignoring it is not something to celebrate?

[Kraken]

“Many” is a ludicrous and insulting attempt to portray anyone who has expressed any attempt to try and understand Israel’s reaction following the events of Oct. 7th.

I haven't had the time to go back through 70 pages of opinions and I was posting off the cuff. If I am incorrect, awesome. I certainly remember being confused that people seemed to think that what Israel was doing was fully justified and not war crimes, but I'm very glad to be wrong.

I think most of us sided with Israel in the early days after Hamas's attack, but that support gradually fell away as Israel's revenge unfolded.

TBH, while my support for Netanyahu is 100% negative, I still support Israel far more than Hamas and other Palestinian Leadership.

Same. Israel has a legitimate need to obliterate Hamas. Leveling Gaza, killing 30k civilians and counting, and creating a humanitarian crisis is, if you'll pardon the expression, overkill. I don't think anybody here is defending war crimes or borderline genocide.

I have one real-life friend who's very Jewish. Like, she'll mention it within five minutes of meeting someone and reminds you of it frequently. Being a Jew is central to her identity. I've had to avoid interacting with her on Facebook because her support for Israel is absolute and any criticism is antisemitic. She is the *only* person I know, online or IRL, who has no sympathy whatsoever for Palestinians.

+1 to this. Also, is your friend my father-in-law??? I may have to adjust his pronouns.

[Edited to say that I regret doing my father-in-law dirty like that. He's actually a really good guy in most respects and would certainly express sympathy for the people in Gaza suffering right now. He might not concede that they are "Palestinian" because he believes the Palestinian people are a fiction, and he would certainly lay all blame for their suffering at the feet of Hamas and not Israel, but he's not an unfeeling monster.]

And, TBH, both may have known people directly impacted on Oct 7 (could even have been family). That does make a difference.

Good point. She's still my friend. I just don't agree with and won't engage with her on this subject.

[UsulofDoom]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.

Also, 3+ years of world fucking war. It wasn't one step from Pearl Harbor to fire bombing Tokyo.

It was not just October 7th but over a decade of terror and missile attacks.

[Alefroth]

68 U.S. civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor. March 9 to March 10, 1945, American aircraft dropped incendiary bombs over Tokyo. Since most of the buildings were made of wood, the city essentially burned to the ground. Conservative estimates assert that 80 000 Japanese civilians were killed, with others positing that over 100,000 people died.

War can suck for those that start it.

While that is certainly true, I think many would hope we would hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards of decency and humanity (even in times of war) than were exhibited by many nations during World War II.

Also, 3+ years of world fucking war. It wasn't one step from Pearl Harbor to fire bombing Tokyo.

It was not just October 7th but over a decade of terror and missile attacks.

Are you excusing Israel's response?