Can't find a link to it, but there's an old Marc Maron bit about that: "I'm a catholic... just in case"
Do you believe in free will?
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
- Sepiche
- Posts: 8112
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:00 pm
- Location: Olathe, KS
- Kraken
- Posts: 44744
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: The Hub of the Universe
- Contact:
Re: Do you believe in free will?
One of Wife's work benefits is supposed to be free will preparation. When we went through the process, the lawyer talked us into creating a trust to make amending the will easier. Fine, whatever, that's just lawyer crap. We sat at a big table and signed a lot of papers with a bunch of other lawyers as witnesses. Then a few weeks later the law firm told us we couldn't have the papers because the trust part of it isn't free. We would have to pay the difference. So now we have a will, maybe, that's in some kind of legal limbo because they tricked us with the ol' bait-and-switch. My understanding is that we cannot legally die now. I pity our heirs. We tried to be responsible but it got all lawyered up.
Anyway, this proves that there is such a thing as a free will, but you can't trust it.
Anyway, this proves that there is such a thing as a free will, but you can't trust it.
- Grifman
- Posts: 21610
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Why does free will require an infinitude of parallel universes? Why not one universe? I don't see any logical requirement for multiple universes. Enlighten me
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- Grifman
- Posts: 21610
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Do you believe in free will?
No, you cannot presume upon God.BooTx wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:53 pmIs it really belief if you're just hedging your bets to save your ass though?Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:47 pmYou Pascally Wabbit! I take it you are referring to Pascal's Wager, which essentially says it is rational to believe in God, since it costs you nothing, but if you reject belief you are risking eternal damnation.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 24048
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Quantum entanglement theory indicates that it is possible that light can go back in time. If light can go back in time, information can be transmitted back in time and the future altered according to free will. If free will is a thing and everything isn't already written in stone.
However, it also appears as if there may be other issues with that:
Edit - this is fun, and I love living in the 21st century with such a wealth of information at our fingertips.It relies on a quantum function known as ‘post-selection’ which essentially allows the probability of a future occurrence to be engineered into happening (perhaps we can liken this to a self-fulfilling prophecy). In quantum and mathematical fields, this is known as ‘conditioning a probability space‘. In the laboratory, this has been tested at very basic levels through the grandfather paradox (this paradox highlights one of many problems with time travel) and has reproduced a 25% success ratio in our ‘dimension’. If you were really into your theoretical physics, you could make the assumption that the other 75% manifested in different dimensions or elsewhere in the multiverse.
What the experiment actually showed was the universe’s answer to the grandfather paradox – a sort of self-defense mechanism. Where the photon COULD travel back in time with an engineered ‘quantum gun’, but it COULDN’T kill itself, as the gun could not fire. But when the time travel FAILED, it could fire the gun.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Holman
- Posts: 29576
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Do you believe in free will?
I'm not sure anything but what a *very* small number of experts say about Quantum Whatever counts as "information."
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 24048
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Eh, it makes sense given my layman's understanding of quantum physics and relativity (well, the alleged defense mechanism doesn't, save to the idea that positing multiple universes, the grandfather paradox solution could be to spin off a separate universe from the moment the quantum gun fired and hit - our universe could never see it, because it had changed, etc.).
And PS, my google-fu (duckduckgo in this case, actually) returned a shit-ton of links, I just perused a few and posted a couple.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Max Peck
- Posts: 14387
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
- Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Because of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. And much damn fine science fiction over the years.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
- Kraken
- Posts: 44744
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: The Hub of the Universe
- Contact:
Re: Do you believe in free will?
I said that in the context of time-traveling into the future. If there is only one future and it already exists -- which would seem to be a prerequisite for visiting it -- then our choices don't matter and free will is an illusion. All of our decisions and actions are predetermined. If free will exists, then there is no "the" future to visit. You need infinite universes to hold all possible futures if we are able to visit any of them.
- Grifman
- Posts: 21610
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Why does one future mean our choices don't matter? And the future doesn't exist - it hasn't happened yet. I would say that it is our free will choices that create that future. That's how we got there.Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:51 pmI said that in the context of time-traveling into the future. If there is only one future and it already exists -- which would seem to be a prerequisite for visiting it -- then our choices don't matter and free will is an illusion. All of our decisions and actions are predetermined. If free will exists, then there is no "the" future to visit. You need infinite universes to hold all possible futures if we are able to visit any of them.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- stessier
- Posts: 30034
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
- Location: SC
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Yes, Unagi, there is.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running__ | __2014: 1300.55 miles__ | __2015: 2036.13 miles__ | __2016: 1012.75 miles__ | __2017: 1105.82 miles__ | __2018: 1318.91 miles | __2019: 2000.00 miles |
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Nice thread necro, as this is a better place than Racism in America for the discussion. The poll shows 68% believe in free will. I would be interested to hear some rebuttals of Sam Harris' thesis.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Do you believe in free will?
And just to get it on this thread :
Below is a clip of Sam Harris actually describing what he even means by Free Will. For instance, this is not a 'you have no control' view or a fatalistic one. It's not about no responsibility, or let's say - a pointlessness to trying to better ones self. It's about the nature of our brain, physics, and our experience of consciousness.
Below is a clip of Sam Harris actually describing what he even means by Free Will. For instance, this is not a 'you have no control' view or a fatalistic one. It's not about no responsibility, or let's say - a pointlessness to trying to better ones self. It's about the nature of our brain, physics, and our experience of consciousness.
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Do you believe in free will?
- Defiant
- Posts: 21045
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: Tongue in cheek
Re: Do you believe in free will?
I don't trust anything that's "free" - you get what you pay for.
- dbt1949
- Posts: 25899
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
- Location: Spiro Oklahoma
Re: Do you believe in free will?
If there is free will what about the time loop where as everything that has happened cannot be changed?
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
That's hilarious. According to Harris changing your mind leads to where you were always going. And flipping a coin is not free will either. And you aren't even obliged to follow the coin outcome. Although if someone put a gun to your head and said, "You WILL follow the coin flip," that could hardly make a case for free will.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Sudy
- Posts: 8349
- Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:11 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Do you believe in free will?
I watch videos like this while I'm falling asleep. They tend not to help.
I'm also still trying to sort out Calvinism vs. Arminianism.
I saw a commercial on late night TV. It said, "Forget everything you know about slipcovers." So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were. -- Mitch Hedberg
- Smoove_B
- Posts: 55678
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
- Location: Kaer Morhen
Re: Do you believe in free will?
She doesn't even talk about how your gut bacteria or parasites are driving your decisions. That freaks me out more than her woo-woo here.
EDIT: I am remarkably consistent. Or my parasites are.
EDIT: I am remarkably consistent. Or my parasites are.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Did she show her woo woo?
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Serious question. If you 100% flushed them out would you survive?
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Oh hell no.
Your mother passed those bacteria on to you and you need em.
Your mother passed those bacteria on to you and you need em.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 84212
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Have you seen what passes for the mind's decisions lately? Do you think most people's mind's have a plan?Jaymann wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:39 pmThat's hilarious. According to Harris changing your mind leads to where you were always going. And flipping a coin is not free will either. And you aren't even obliged to follow the coin outcome. Although if someone put a gun to your head and said, "You WILL follow the coin flip," that could hardly make a case for free will.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- Carpet_pissr
- Posts: 20701
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
- Location: Columbia, SC
Re: Do you believe in free will?
!! So that's where C.S. Lewis got that idea?! Sonofa...I thought that was original. And I also had the same question as someone above about it, and thought it pretty damn superficial. Is that really belief? You're not even tricking yourself into believing, you are just internally saying so. That is weird as hell (to me).Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:47 pmYou Pascally Wabbit! I take it you are referring to Pascal's Wager, which essentially says it is rational to believe in God, since it costs you nothing, but if you reject belief you are risking eternal damnation.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:35 am Since we can't know and since common sense strongly supports the belief in free will, what's gained by presuming we don't have it?
Even more, I can think of all kinds of bad results that likely follow from an ideology rejecting free will. Since we believe ourselves free to believe in free will and to prevent those results, we ought to do so.
It's kind of Pascally.
- Carpet_pissr
- Posts: 20701
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
- Location: Columbia, SC
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Noice.Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:33 pm One of Wife's work benefits is supposed to be free will preparation. When we went through the process, the lawyer talked us into creating a trust to make amending the will easier. Fine, whatever, that's just lawyer crap. We sat at a big table and signed a lot of papers with a bunch of other lawyers as witnesses. Then a few weeks later the law firm told us we couldn't have the papers because the trust part of it isn't free. We would have to pay the difference. So now we have a will, maybe, that's in some kind of legal limbo because they tricked us with the ol' bait-and-switch. My understanding is that we cannot legally die now. I pity our heirs. We tried to be responsible but it got all lawyered up.
Anyway, this proves that there is such a thing as a free will, but you can't trust it.
Also, www.freewill.com allows you to do a whole bunch of stuff for free. I am currently doing an FPOA (Financial Power of Attorney) on there for my Mom. No idea about trusts though (but I think I saw that as well as an option).
Now back to the topic: The Matrix. There, I said it. It needed saying, and I can't believe this thread has made it to page 2 without a mention. WTF.
Personally, I think our subconsicous minds are certainly moving us in a certain direction, BUT if you actively take the reigns, and recognize that our subconscious is only trying to 'keep us alive' as it were...avoiding risk, maintaining the same patterns of behavior and even existence, you can "take the red pill" as it were. Anyone heard of arriving at work and not really being aware of how you got there? Brain on auto-pilot!
The default, subconscious behavior is MIGHTY strong, and I think most people just go along with it, giving in every day, letting things settle, etc. It's safe, and comfortable, and it "feels" right. Numbing, almost. But of course, that kind of risk-averse, biologically hardwired behavior presumably only keeps us "safe", not happy, and therein lies the problem of modern angst. Maybe.
We no longer have to fear being caught outside the cave after dark anymore, but deep down, we want more than that.
- Blackhawk
- Posts: 45334
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
- Location: Southwest Indiana
Re: Do you believe in free will?
I can accept that. Free will is the alternative to just following orders. It takes effort to to bypass the instinctive response that is ingrained by millions of years, but we're not locked into autopilot.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
- Carpet_pissr
- Posts: 20701
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
- Location: Columbia, SC
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Exactly. As usual, you condense my rambling, poorly written ideas down into a concise, well-formed phrase (assuming you were respdonging to me!)
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Ok. None of that is what Sam Harris is getting at.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 84212
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: Do you believe in free will?
He knows that a lot of us aren't going to bother watching the video.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- Blackhawk
- Posts: 45334
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
- Location: Southwest Indiana
Re: Do you believe in free will?
It's a free will thread, not just a Sam Harris thread.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Well. It’s not a Sam Harris thread at all.
I just asked for people to address (or take a moment to expose themselves to) his specific take on Free Will.
Sorry
If you don’t want to watch it or don’t want to talk about it, that’s fine - I assumed people wouldn’t want to talk about it in the Racism thread.
I just asked for people to address (or take a moment to expose themselves to) his specific take on Free Will.
Sorry
If you don’t want to watch it or don’t want to talk about it, that’s fine - I assumed people wouldn’t want to talk about it in the Racism thread.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 84212
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: Do you believe in free will?
I'm just giving you hell. I assume Blackhawk is as well.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
For those who insist they have free will, I would ask you how you address one issue:
How do you explain the fact that scientists can scan your brain and determine what choice you will make before you consciously make a choice.
How do you explain the fact that scientists can scan your brain and determine what choice you will make before you consciously make a choice.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Carpet_pissr
- Posts: 20701
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
- Location: Columbia, SC
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Pre-cognition?! Source?
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Article here.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Unagi
- Posts: 27776
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Holman
- Posts: 29576
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Of course, as French Catholic, Pascal is at this very moment burning in the fires of Zoroastrian hell.Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:37 am!! So that's where C.S. Lewis got that idea?! Sonofa...I thought that was original. And I also had the same question as someone above about it, and thought it pretty damn superficial. Is that really belief? You're not even tricking yourself into believing, you are just internally saying so. That is weird as hell (to me).Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:47 pmYou Pascally Wabbit! I take it you are referring to Pascal's Wager, which essentially says it is rational to believe in God, since it costs you nothing, but if you reject belief you are risking eternal damnation.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:35 am Since we can't know and since common sense strongly supports the belief in free will, what's gained by presuming we don't have it?
Even more, I can think of all kinds of bad results that likely follow from an ideology rejecting free will. Since we believe ourselves free to believe in free will and to prevent those results, we ought to do so.
It's kind of Pascally.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
You mean he rejected his own wager?Holman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:25 pmOf course, as French Catholic, Pascal is at this very moment burning in the fires of Zoroastrian hell.Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:37 am!! So that's where C.S. Lewis got that idea?! Sonofa...I thought that was original. And I also had the same question as someone above about it, and thought it pretty damn superficial. Is that really belief? You're not even tricking yourself into believing, you are just internally saying so. That is weird as hell (to me).Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:47 pmYou Pascally Wabbit! I take it you are referring to Pascal's Wager, which essentially says it is rational to believe in God, since it costs you nothing, but if you reject belief you are risking eternal damnation.Holman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:35 am Since we can't know and since common sense strongly supports the belief in free will, what's gained by presuming we don't have it?
Even more, I can think of all kinds of bad results that likely follow from an ideology rejecting free will. Since we believe ourselves free to believe in free will and to prevent those results, we ought to do so.
It's kind of Pascally.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
- Jaymann
- Posts: 20314
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
- Location: California
Re: Do you believe in free will?
P. S. So it is fortuitous that my intestinal parasites directed me to post this thread in R & P.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.
]==(:::::::::::::>
Leave no bacon behind.