The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
coopasonic
Posts: 20969
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Dallas-ish

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by coopasonic »

Daehawk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:00 pm Hey they got Al Capone on tax evasion...never know. Im just surprised NO ONE investigated a millionaire who pays less tax than me.
Millionaires can pay for lawyers and tend to have very complicated financial records, that make it expensive to get anything out of them. Much easier to go after people without those resources even though the payoff is not even close.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70100
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LordMortis »

You need a narcissist to grab hold and never let go. Say, like a Guliani. He used tax evasion to take down a lot of players to advance his agenda. In retrospect, when all of Trump's cards fell in in the 90s and he started screwing over everyone banks and contractors alike, you'd think Guliani would have come after Trump too. Or was he no longer doing prosecution then?
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19978
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Daehawk wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:00 pm Hey they got Al Capone on tax evasion...never know. Im just surprised NO ONE investigated a millionaire who pays less tax than me.
Because like Al Capone, he's yugely popular. Al Capone was a legit celebrity, and people cheered and shit when he would show up at ball games, fights, etc. Actually, Capone was probably much more popular than Trump is today, because Trump is divisive...you probably either love him or hate him. Capone was pretty much universally popular.

Also, like Trump, Capone would totally have had his own reality show if he lived in modern times.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:28 pm
malchior wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:55 am This is the civil case btw - it means big trouble for the Trump Organization potentially but the underlying crimes that got it that way? Who knows if they'll get there. That is actually part of why they are resisting subpoenas in this civil case claiming it'll be used against them in criminal proceedings.
And not to bring the law into it, BUT: (1) there's no fifth amendment (or other right) to not produce documents pursuant to subpoena even if those documents are incriminating, unless the subpoena is written in a really weird way (e.g., "please produce all documents that prove that you committed a crime");
Right but that doesn't stop these assholes from filing motion after motion to delay producing those documents on those specious grounds.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41245
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:38 pm
El Guapo wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:28 pm
malchior wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:55 am This is the civil case btw - it means big trouble for the Trump Organization potentially but the underlying crimes that got it that way? Who knows if they'll get there. That is actually part of why they are resisting subpoenas in this civil case claiming it'll be used against them in criminal proceedings.
And not to bring the law into it, BUT: (1) there's no fifth amendment (or other right) to not produce documents pursuant to subpoena even if those documents are incriminating, unless the subpoena is written in a really weird way (e.g., "please produce all documents that prove that you committed a crime");
Right but that doesn't stop these assholes from filing motion after motion to delay producing those documents on those specious grounds.
That is correct.
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

Trump's 'Save America' agenda might be lacking some rigor.

User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman »



tl;dr Trump's accounting firm (Mazars) is cutting him loose and implying that the Trump Org (i.e. the whole rotten family) has been lying to banks and the Federal Government for years.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

I'd care if it'd matter. But it won't.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

It feels like...declaring an entire decade of financials should be a big deal.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41245
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:33 pm I'd care if it'd matter. But it won't.
Well, what I wonder with this is whether it signals that Mazars is willing to say that they witnessed fraudulent activity / received false information / etc. from Trump or his family. If so that raises the odds that prosecutors have a case to bring.

Whether prosecutors can and are willing to deliver...who knows. If they don't, then this doesn't matter at all.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kurth »

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:44 pm It feels like...declaring an entire decade of financials should be a big deal.
When I saw the headlines and began reading the article the NYT ran on it, I thought the same thing at first. But the further I read, the more it became clear that there's a shit ton of fine print and caveats to these "financial condition statements" that kind of makes this more of a nothing burger, unfortunately.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

The way I see it is that the government has shown for years they are unwilling to take on complex financial investigations. There has been a lot of ink spilled about that and it helped fuel the populist unrest we saw through the last decade. Only to be exploited by a mobster President. And in the end, they won't charge him for the well documented crimes he did in the sunlight. I mean we have to be realistic. Our system is corrupt. I'd love for it to prove me wrong but it almost certainly won't. We're watching the death of a nation in real-time here. I am just choosing to face that probable reality with years of well-supported low expectations.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

Also, "got to love" the brazenness of the Trump organization naturally spinning this as a victory while providing the talking points for the army of smooth brain's they field daily.

User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Kurth wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:48 pm When I saw the headlines and began reading the article the NYT ran on it, I thought the same thing at first. But the further I read, the more it became clear that there's a shit ton of fine print and caveats to these "financial condition statements" that kind of makes this more of a nothing burger, unfortunately.
I guess I'm struggling because I'm trying to think of another time when a similar organization came out and declared a decade of financials as questionable. I understand that they always reserve the right to revoke their prior certifications ("I've got new information, man. New shit has come to light."), but I can't help but feel this unusual.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

It's unusual for sure. I think though that this is partially maybe even primarily Mazars trying to protect themselves - both from the repercussions of factual findings in a court case about the veracity of the documents but also their reputation. It has to be battered after years of being tied to Trump's financials.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16434
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Zarathud »

Mazars is protecting itself, and firing a highly visible client is a big deal. They are literally saying the accounting firm won’t stand behind the Trump Organization’s financials even with all of the qualifications and limitations.

That happens when an accounting firm can no longer rely on its client, and fears continued work will cause liability. They likely have a good idea where the financial inaccuracies are likely and don’t want to be forced into exposing them.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33592
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Remus West »

Zarathud wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:03 am Mazars is protecting itself, and firing a highly visible client is a big deal. They are literally saying the accounting firm won’t stand behind the Trump Organization’s financials even with all of the qualifications and limitations.

That happens when an accounting firm can no longer rely on its client, and fears continued work will cause liability. They likely have a good idea where the financial inaccuracies are likely and don’t want to be forced into exposing them.
How is this going to keep them from being forced begged to participate in the investigation? If there are discrepancies found are they not still liable for the work them did?
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman »

Does all this mean Trump's lenders are now free to call in their loans?

And wouldn't you not want to be the last to do so?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41245
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Remus West wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 4:02 pm
Zarathud wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:03 am Mazars is protecting itself, and firing a highly visible client is a big deal. They are literally saying the accounting firm won’t stand behind the Trump Organization’s financials even with all of the qualifications and limitations.

That happens when an accounting firm can no longer rely on its client, and fears continued work will cause liability. They likely have a good idea where the financial inaccuracies are likely and don’t want to be forced into exposing them.
How is this going to keep them from being forced begged to participate in the investigation? If there are discrepancies found are they not still liable for the work them did?
It shouldn't keep them from being involved in the investigation. Now, if they are inclined to fight it, given a sympathetic SCOTUS they could probably postpone their involvement a fair amount.

In terms of their liability, I assume their position would be that their work was fine, but that they were given bad information (were lied to) by their client. If that's true, then as a general rule they wouldn't be liable. Of course the truth may be somewhere in the middle where they were lied to but the lies were fairly obvious ones, and they didn't do their job adequately to scrutinize those lies. Which could create liability for Mazars but likely presents a tough case for prosecutors. Though I imagine prosecutors would be more interested in pursuing people in the Trump Organization anyway.

In any event that's what interests me in this. Unless I'm missing something it sure sounds like Mazars is locking itself into an argument that the Trump Organization lied to them, which seems like pretty good evidence for prosecutors interested in prosecuting people in the Trump Organization.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Holman wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:01 pm Does all this mean Trump's lenders are now free to call in their loans?

And wouldn't you not want to be the last to do so?
Owe the bank $500K? That's your problem.

Owe the bank $500M? That's their problem.


Ask Trump, he built an illusory career on it.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23583
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:39 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:01 pm Does all this mean Trump's lenders are now free to call in their loans?

And wouldn't you not want to be the last to do so?
Owe the bank $500K? That's your problem.

Owe the bank $500M? That's their problem.


Ask Trump, he built an illusory career on it.
Banks had actually wised up to him prior to his presidential run. He was down to soliciting questionable funds from Eastern Europe and the Middle East as Western Banks weren't willing to lend to him as I recall. I do suspect that may have changed in the past few years tho...
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Pyperkub wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:44 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:39 pm
Holman wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:01 pm Does all this mean Trump's lenders are now free to call in their loans?

And wouldn't you not want to be the last to do so?
Owe the bank $500K? That's your problem.

Owe the bank $500M? That's their problem.


Ask Trump, he built an illusory career on it.
Banks had actually wised up to him prior to his presidential run. He was down to soliciting questionable funds from Eastern Europe and the Middle East as Western Banks weren't willing to lend to him as I recall. I do suspect that may have changed in the past few years tho...
Deutche Bank was with him up until last year. I think he still owes them north of $300M.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16434
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Zarathud »

I expect Mazars was getting questions where they would have to investigate. Or Trump Organization was not listening. Better to withdraw before you’re thrown on the hand grenade. That’s definitely Trump’s Strategy — accept no responsibility.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

Biden rejects Trump's attempt to shield White House visitor logs, including for day of January 6 attack
In a letter to the National Archives, White House counsel Dana Remus wrote Biden has determined that asserting executive privilege "is not in the best interests of the United States, and therefore is not justified, as to these records and portions of records." The New York Times was first to report on Biden's decision.
...
Remus explained the administration's decision by noting that, while Trump decided to block the visitor logs from public view on claims about national security, the Biden administration "voluntarily discloses such visitor logs on a monthly basis," with some exceptions.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30125
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by YellowKing »

I don't care if Trump gets off scott-free, if he can only get in enough legal entanglement to prevent being able to run in 2024. I'm not sure if that's even possible given his ability to deflect everything, but it's my only hope. Sure, we may still wind up getting a Trump loyalist in the WH, but at least it would be a different brand of crazy. I'm not sure my mental state can handle 4 more years of Trump.
User avatar
Jaymann
Posts: 19318
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
Location: California

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jaymann »

Soros should come in and buy up all his debt. Then tell Florida Man he will forgive it all plus spot him a billion, as long as he and his family disappear from public life.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman »

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

Can someone lawsplain to me what deposing a hostile opponent accomplishes?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51302
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by hepcat »

With Donnie it means a full confession in the form of bragging and topped off with a “…but that just means I’m a smart businessman!”
Covfefe!
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70100
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LordMortis »

I think he will sit there and say that he relies on his attorneys and accountants to handle that stuff. He has no idea what was happening. Every thing wrong or illegal is all their fault.
User avatar
stimpy
Posts: 6102
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:04 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by stimpy »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:15 pm I think he will sit there and say that he relies on his attorneys and accountants to handle that stuff. He has no idea what was happening. Every thing wrong or illegal is all their fault.
Just like most business men and politicians do.
He/Him/His/Porcupine
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 14950
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by ImLawBoy »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:44 pm Can someone lawsplain to me what deposing a hostile opponent accomplishes?
I'm not a litigator, but deposing hostile witnesses happens in just about every litigation, I'd think. It's part fishing expedition/part laying the groundwork for in court testimony. The rule of thumb when you're in court is that you never want to ask a question of the witness that you don't already know the answer to. Deposition allows you to get some answers ahead of time. If the answer in court comes out differently than in the deposition, you can use the deposition to impeach the witness and cast doubt on their credibility. In a case with criminal implications, you're likely to get a lot of 5th Amendment calls (which, for the record, does not mean the person is guilty of anything!), but even that can be helpful in planning your strategy. In this case, which is going to be a media circus, you'll get the benefit of the public acting all outraged that someone has taken the 5th.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 14950
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by ImLawBoy »

stimpy wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:36 pm
LordMortis wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:15 pm I think he will sit there and say that he relies on his attorneys and accountants to handle that stuff. He has no idea what was happening. Every thing wrong or illegal is all their fault.
Just like most business men and politicians do.
To an extent, yes, but not fully. I can't speak to the accountancy side of things, but I can tell you that the business people where I work get fully briefed on legal issues and risks associated with taking various positions. That's because most decisions in business are that - business decisions. They can and should be informed by the law and the legal risks, but in the end the client needs to make the business decision.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
User avatar
Jaymann
Posts: 19318
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
Location: California

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jaymann »

Will transcripts of the depo be made public? I could use a good laugh.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 14950
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by ImLawBoy »

One other element to consider about the "advice of counsel" defense is that it typically pierces the protection of attorney-client privilege with respect to that advice. If you're saying that your lawyer told you to do something, you've now proactively waived attorney-client privilege by disclosing the advice your lawyer gave you. That means the other side can now seek discovery into communications between the lawyer and client with respect to that advice, so you'd better be telling the truth if you say that your lawyer told you it was OK to do something!

(Again, I don't know squat about accounting, so I don't know how a similar defense would work in that field.)
That's my purse! I don't know you!
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41245
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:02 pm One other element to consider about the "advice of counsel" defense is that it typically pierces the protection of attorney-client privilege with respect to that advice. If you're saying that your lawyer told you to do something, you've now proactively waived attorney-client privilege by disclosing the advice your lawyer gave you. That means the other side can now seek discovery into communications between the lawyer and client with respect to that advice, so you'd better be telling the truth if you say that your lawyer told you it was OK to do something!

(Again, I don't know squat about accounting, so I don't know how a similar defense would work in that field.)
Well, there's no "accountant-client privilege" (because those suckers aren't writing the laws so who cares about keeping their communications private), so that wouldn't have any impact on prosecutors' ability to compel information related to accountant-client matters. But showing that your accountant told you that your taxes were in compliance with GAAP or whatever is a good defense to criminal fraud, for example.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B »


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Judge rejects Trump attempt to toss conspiracy lawsuits, finds 'plausible' case former president incited Capitol riot.
This means...something.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Octavious
Posts: 20035
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:50 pm

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Octavious »

This TIME! :lol:
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.

Shameless plug for my website: www.nettphoto.com
User avatar
Jaymann
Posts: 19318
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
Location: California

Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jaymann »

IF convicted he would be presumably be prohibited from holding public office. I think. Where's that Kirschner idiot.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Black Lives Matter
Post Reply