Octopus Overlords

I will say that I aspire to have the stones that Paul has. Telling one woman that he loves her immediately before publicly proposing to another woman that he just met in front of the first woman.

Also - Paul gets engaged to Irulan in order to get the emperor to resign and to legitimize his ascension to the throne. And yet apparently all the great houses immediately reject his ascension. So...what is he getting out of the marriage then? Couldn't he just as easily execute the emperor and marry Chani or whomever he wants if he's just going to fight everyone anyway?

I don't really remember how the book handles that.

It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Have you seen Irulan?

LOL!

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Presumably access to the Emperor's military and financial resources. Yes, he also has the Fremen, but they don't have ships. Or the money to pay for the travel expenses.

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:19 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Presumably access to the Emperor's military and financial resources. Yes, he also has the Fremen, but they don't have ships. Or the money to pay for the travel expenses.

In hindsight he may have been too hasty in telling the Fremen to execute all the Sardaukar.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:01 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Have you seen Irulan?

Fair, but he's also giving up Zendaya in the exchange.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:36 am

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:19 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Presumably access to the Emperor's military and financial resources. Yes, he also has the Fremen, but they don't have ships. Or the money to pay for the travel expenses.

In hindsight he may have been too hasty in telling the Fremen to execute all the Sardaukar.

Maybe. But isn't there an entire planet of them? I assumed he only brought what he thought was "enough". Not every single one.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Paul's engagement to Irulan serves multiple strategic purposes, even if it doesn't immediately secure the allegiance of all the Great Houses. First and foremost, as the Emperor's eldest daughter, marrying Irulan provides him with a crucial legitimacy factor. Her hand in marriage grants him a direct bloodline connection to the outgoing Imperial regime, strengthening his claim to the throne in the eyes of those who value dynastic succession. While the Great Houses initially reject Paul's ascension, having Irulan as his consort could potentially still sway and persuade factions within them to accept his rule over time. Because many houses would still have loyalists or those seeking to maintain the status quo, considering the Corrino Imperium had ruled the Known Universe for thousands of years. So Irulan's presence at Paul's side could persuade those factions to eventually accept his rule, avoiding a more protracted and destructive war. She's also a Bene Gesserit who is well-versed in the intricate politics and customs of the Imperium. So marrying her provides him with a valuable advisor and a bridge to the aristocratic classes, potentially facilitating a smoother transition and integration of his new political order (and his broader strategy to consolidate power and reshape the entire social and political fabric of the universe according to his vision).

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:36 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:01 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Have you seen Irulan?

Fair, but he's also giving up Zendaya in the exchange.

Done! Not even a contest.

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:45 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:36 am

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:19 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:49 am It means he is the legitimate ruler but the Houses are so corrupt, they resist.

Right, but like...what's he getting out of the marriage if he needs to fight everyone anyway?

Presumably access to the Emperor's military and financial resources. Yes, he also has the Fremen, but they don't have ships. Or the money to pay for the travel expenses.

In hindsight he may have been too hasty in telling the Fremen to execute all the Sardaukar.

Maybe. But isn't there an entire planet of them? I assumed he only brought what he thought was "enough". Not every single one.

That is going to make for one awkward workplace. I mean, try making small talk around the Imperial watercooler with soldiers who were trying to kill you last Thursday. What'ya talk about? The weather?

"Was it really humid the morning you killed my entire family? Or was it a dry heat?"

Stating up front that I liked and still like the original 1984 movie and really like the 1st Villeneuve one and have watched it a few times.
Really looking FWD to this newest one.

I thought about maybe reading the books until I watched https://youtu.be/hJ658qV-xAg?si=UM8mwEpmTHfL5oLc video last night - and quite frankly the story arc in book 3 and beyond is simply not for me to be honest. Enough of an arc that I won't even read the 1st 2 books
I thought I liked odd things but OMG I guess I don't after all

Roman wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:51 pm Stating up front that I liked and still like the original 1984 movie and really like the 1st Villeneuve one and have watched it a few times.
Really looking FWD to this newest one.

I thought about maybe reading the books until I watched https://youtu.be/hJ658qV-xAg?si=UM8mwEpmTHfL5oLc video last night - and quite frankly the story arc in book 3 and beyond is simply not for me to be honest. Enough of an arc that I won't even read the 1st 2 books
I thought I liked odd things but OMG I guess I don't after all

100% read the first Dune book. That's a classic for a reason - the book (at least my memory of it from high school) is fantastic. You can absolutely stop there - personally I think I read about half of Dune Messiah at one point, but my understanding is that after Messiah things get *real* weird (e.g. immortal worm god emperor) so books 3+ are not for...well anyone as far as I can tell.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:12 pm 100% read the first Dune book. That's a classic for a reason - the book (at least my memory of it from high school) is fantastic. You can absolutely stop there - personally I think I read about half of Dune Messiah at one point, but my understanding is that after Messiah things get *real* weird (e.g. immortal worm god emperor) so books 3+ are not for...well anyone as far as I can tell.

Loved the first book and really REALLY enjoyed the second and third FWIW. I didn't go past the third one, however, probably based on advice I got here before reading.

If you want to find out what happens to Paul, you kind of have to read to a certain point (won't say what point since that would be spoilery I guess, but it's beyond the first book). If you like the politics and philosophy of the Dune...idea...I would highly suggest that someone read past the first one.

Obviously the first is a classic and I think anyone who reads sci fi at all owes it to themselves to read it.

I'm not sure how many of the rest of the series I read. I don't remember anything except the first one, although I'm pretty sure I read 2 and 3 also, but then I might have stopped like others here.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:56 pm Obviously the first is a classic and I think anyone who reads sci fi at all owes it to themselves to read it.

I'm not sure how many of the rest of the series I read. I don't remember anything except the first one, although I'm pretty sure I read 2 and 3 also, but then I might have stopped like others here.

While 2 and 3 were nothing like the epic first, they do continue the story. The rest of Frank's books? Not so much. Brian's books fill in a lot of backstory, and despite what some say here are just fine if you want to be fully immersed in that fictional world.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:22 pm and despite what some say here are just fine if you want to be fully immersed in that fictional world.

It ain't just here, pal.



But some folks swear by all the Star Wars and Star Trek expanded universe books, so I would imagine that people not expecting his father's level of maturity and talent in the first few Dune books might enjoy Brian's books.

As someone who admitted to never reading them, you opinion is invalid. Useless, I say! I know it's Pi day, but shut thy pie hole!

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:39 am I will say that I aspire to have the stones that Paul has. Telling one woman that he loves her immediately before publicly proposing to another woman that he just met in front of the first woman.

Also - Paul gets engaged to Irulan in order to get the emperor to resign and to legitimize his ascension to the throne. And yet apparently all the great houses immediately reject his ascension. So...what is he getting out of the marriage then? Couldn't he just as easily execute the emperor and marry Chani or whomever he wants if he's just going to fight everyone anyway?

I don't really remember how the book handles that.

IIRC, Paul makes it clear to Chani that she is his true love and that Irulan is merely a means to the throne. Jessica and Chani have a conversation that reiterates and confirms this arrangement. The last line of the book is Jessica (also once a concubine) saying to Chani, "History will call us wives."

I feel like the movie missed a step by leaving it more ambiguous, but I think that's Villeneuve leaning into "Paul is NOT a hero, get it??"

At the start of Dune Messiah, twelve years later, it's clear that this arrangement still stands: Paul loves Chani and has never given Irulan the slightest affection. (Of course he's still not a hero because, you know, 60 billion deaths.)

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:32 pm As someone who admitted to never reading them, you opinion is invalid. Useless, I say! I know it's Pi day, but shut thy pie hole!

I did try to read the House Harkonnen book a little while ago to see if I was being too harsh basing my opinion on what I’d read about Brian Herbert’s books.

I was not, I found out.

There’s a reason they’re widely dismissed by fans of Frank Herbert’s Dune.

But they make YOU happy. Isn’t that all that’s important?

I have ordered the book Dune Messiah. I read Dune in college and really liked it. I remember not finishing Messiah and hated it. I'm going to give it another chance. My tastes in books have changed A LOT since my earlier years.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:15 pm

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:32 pm As someone who admitted to never reading them, you opinion is invalid. Useless, I say! I know it's Pi day, but shut thy pie hole!

I did try to read the House Harkonnen book a little while ago to see if I was being too harsh basing my opinion on what I’d read about Brian Herbert’s books.

I was not, I found out.

There’s a reason they’re widely dismissed by fans of Frank Herbert’s Dune.

But they make YOU happy. Isn’t that all that’s important?

What exactly did you not like about it? That the Harkonnens used to be an honorable house?

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:15 pm

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:32 pm As someone who admitted to never reading them, you opinion is invalid. Useless, I say! I know it's Pi day, but shut thy pie hole!

I did try to read the House Harkonnen book a little while ago to see if I was being too harsh basing my opinion on what I’d read about Brian Herbert’s books.

I was not, I found out.

There’s a reason they’re widely dismissed by fans of Frank Herbert’s Dune.

But they make YOU happy. Isn’t that all that’s important?

What exactly did you not like about it? That the Harkonnens used to be an honorable house?

Lassr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:19 pm I have ordered the book Dune Messiah. I read Dune in college and really liked it. I remember not finishing Messiah and hated it. I'm going to give it another chance. My tastes in books have changed A LOT since my earlier years.

Attaboy.

Hopefully you find it as interesting as I did on your second attempt.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:34 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:15 pm

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:32 pm As someone who admitted to never reading them, you opinion is invalid. Useless, I say! I know it's Pi day, but shut thy pie hole!

I did try to read the House Harkonnen book a little while ago to see if I was being too harsh basing my opinion on what I’d read about Brian Herbert’s books.

I was not, I found out.

There’s a reason they’re widely dismissed by fans of Frank Herbert’s Dune.

But they make YOU happy. Isn’t that all that’s important?

What exactly did you not like about it? That the Harkonnens used to be an honorable house?

I do admit to tweaking your nipples a bit. But the book felt tonally different. It was more action adventure book than grand epic. Plus, the writing style itself felt almost peurile at times. Though perhaps he gets better as the series of books continues. I just know I prefer to stick with his father’s books. Brian is writing “what if” books from my viewpoint. I’d prefer to just leave those things unexplored rather than hear someone else’s thoughts on what happened…even if he claims he’s channeling pop.

Lassr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:19 pm I have ordered the book Dune Messiah. I read Dune in college and really liked it. I remember not finishing Messiah and hated it. I'm going to give it another chance. My tastes in books have changed A LOT since my earlier years.

Dune Messiah feels very slim after Dune, but it's worth reading to see where Paul's story goes.

Plus, I remember it as the worst example of Herbert's tendency to do explication instead of story. "Here is how this character feels, and here is a run-down on why they feel this way. It'll be done in about three pages."

Sci Fi can be weird and strange and philosophical in exploring strange new worlds. The later Dune books explored the consequences of a universe ruled by someone with precognition and people (worse than the Bene Gesserit) who could follow that path — or a path of unpredictability — and that monstrous power to manipulate and control others can not only be created but destroyed. Neat ideas even if Frank got weird after Book 2.

Brian explored the background of why people would want to create an empire and create human minds more powerful than computers — they had been oppressed and experimented upon by cruel AI. Until a child’s brutal death led to jihad against the machines, inheriting their empire. Also a very interesting concept, even if it falls into the trap of retelling Dune since Brian is writing as his father’s son and without any talent of his own. The talented cowriter was constrained, so it’s a serviceable pulp tale that doesn’t have the same impact. But it’s not trash if you give it a chance. Which most (like Hepcat) won’t ever do.

Zarathud wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:28 am Sci Fi can be weird and strange and philosophical in exploring strange new worlds. The later Dune books explored the consequences of a universe ruled by someone with precognition and people (worse than the Bene Gesserit) who could follow that path — or a path of unpredictability — and that monstrous power to manipulate and control others can not only be created but destroyed. Neat ideas even if Frank got weird after Book 2.

Isn't sci-fi supposed to be weird, and challenging?

Only if you have expectations of literary greatness. I’ve enjoyed plenty of pulp sci fi which was recreational, not challenging. It is even a genre.

Zarathud wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:25 am Only if you have expectations of literary greatness. I’ve enjoyed plenty of pulp sci fi which was recreational, not challenging. It is even a genre.

OK, just "weird", then.

I found Messiah and Children to be MUCH less challenging than many other sci fi books I've attempted/failed to read. They are very much narrative/story-driven IMO (although not nearly as much as the first one of course).

I'm curious how Villaneuve (sp?) plans to handle Messiah. I'm not sure how you make it into a concise story in one movie that hangs together with the first two parts and which isn't a major bummer.

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:50 am

Lassr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:19 pm I have ordered the book Dune Messiah. I read Dune in college and really liked it. I remember not finishing Messiah and hated it. I'm going to give it another chance. My tastes in books have changed A LOT since my earlier years.

Dune Messiah feels very slim after Dune, but it's worth reading to see where Paul's story goes.

Plus, I remember it as the worst example of Herbert's tendency to do explication instead of story. "Here is how this character feels, and here is a run-down on why they feel this way. It'll be done in about three pages."

Umberto Herbert?

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:50 am

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:50 am

Lassr wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:19 pm I have ordered the book Dune Messiah. I read Dune in college and really liked it. I remember not finishing Messiah and hated it. I'm going to give it another chance. My tastes in books have changed A LOT since my earlier years.

Dune Messiah feels very slim after Dune, but it's worth reading to see where Paul's story goes.

Plus, I remember it as the worst example of Herbert's tendency to do explication instead of story. "Here is how this character feels, and here is a run-down on why they feel this way. It'll be done in about three pages."

Umberto Herbert?

Having read The Name of the Rose, I totally get that reference.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:38 am I'm curious how Villaneuve (sp?) plans to handle Messiah. I'm not sure how you make it into a concise story in one movie that hangs together with the first two parts and which isn't a major bummer.

If he makes it into something that is NOT a bummer, then he will not be following the book. Which is OK I guess, but would be a mistake IMO since the power of the book is in its message about power, empire, control and consequences, and corruption I guess.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:35 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:38 am I'm curious how Villaneuve (sp?) plans to handle Messiah. I'm not sure how you make it into a concise story in one movie that hangs together with the first two parts and which isn't a major bummer.

If he makes it into something that is NOT a bummer, then he will not be following the book. Which is OK I guess, but would be a mistake IMO since the power of the book is in its message about power, empire, control and consequences, and corruption I guess.

It's hard to see people liking the movie all that much, then. Like it's not unusual for the second part of a trilogy to be a downer (e.g., Empire Strikes Back), but as the conclusion of the trilogy?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:46 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:35 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:38 am I'm curious how Villaneuve (sp?) plans to handle Messiah. I'm not sure how you make it into a concise story in one movie that hangs together with the first two parts and which isn't a major bummer.

If he makes it into something that is NOT a bummer, then he will not be following the book. Which is OK I guess, but would be a mistake IMO since the power of the book is in its message about power, empire, control and consequences, and corruption I guess.

It's hard to see people liking the movie all that much, then. Like it's not unusual for the second part of a trilogy to be a downer (e.g., Empire Strikes Back), but as the conclusion of the trilogy?

I mean, so be it, man. It's the book, you want him to Disneyfy it? I can't think of anything more horrible both for these movies and professionally for Villenueve. I would rather he not make it than to change it to "happy ending!!!" just to satisfy the popcorn crowd (whatever that means! It just felt right in the moment )

Imagine if they had made Game of Thrones and removed the Red Wedding or "Ned's Dead, Man, Ned's Dead" because it made people unhappy? Ugh, no thanks.