The American Apocalypse

[LawBeefaroni]

Wait so you showed him actual data and he just didn't believe it? Any rationale at all?

"You can do anything with numbers. All I know is that my parents never paid this much..."

Something like that. Blind disbelief.

[Pyperkub]

Trump has said unequivocally that he wants to repeal the ACA and replace it with something.

He has provided three elements to the replace side:
1) Health Savings Accounts (effectively forcing you to self-insure).
2) Allow insurers to compete across state lines (State's Rights!!).
3) Transfer administrative control of Medicaid to the States (who already have administrative control of Medicaid).

Problem solved. Enjoy.

Item 2 is a Yuge mistake IMHO. It will effectively be like when Credit Cards were de-regulated in the same fashion, and all of the Credit Cards are now based out of North Dakota, which basically set their rules up to be the most anti-consumer, pro-business rip-off possible under the gutted law. I fully expect that to happen again if there aren't controls in place to prevent it.

[Zarathud]

It will be exactly like credit cards. Alaska and Nevada are doing the same with trusts. This is what Netherlands and Ireland offered to multinational businesses.

[Skinypupy]

Apparently there is a video floating around of some black kids beating up a white guy while yelling "He voted for Trump". It has been blowing up with all my conservative friends as a BSAB equivalent. It's just been on FB...will see if I can figure out how to link it here.

When I commented that it was equally as disgusting and that if it becomes a similar pattern of behavior to the multiple actions we're seeing perpetrated against minorities, then it requires equal discussion, evaluation, and condemnation, I was met with a flurry of "It is happening just as much (if not more), but the media just isn't reporting it". I give up.

[Fireball]

You're far more optimistic than I am.

I think you're forgetting how bad Bush was. Unless Trump actually starts a war, he'll almost certainly be better than Bush. He might start a war, but Bush did. So he gets the benefit of the doubt.

Just by repealing the ACA, Trump will cause the deaths of more Americans than Bush's war in Iraq did.

I'm not sure it's worth it to keep existing on this planet anymore.

[Blackhawk]

I'm not sure it's worth it to keep existing on this planet anymore.

Quit it.

The trend has been in the opposite direction of Trumpland attitudes for years. That trend will continue after a bump.

[Fireball]

So the final numbers for #ElectionDay are:

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted Clinton
25.5% voted Trump

Now that's a mandate!

(I want to go and listen to Alex Jones this morning and I don't at the same time, something wrong with me)

I hear you. I haven't been able to resist roaming the liberal websites to wallow in their dismay.

I really shouldn't but I am finding the tears of Clinton supporters too delicious to resist.

8 confirmed reports of trans Americans killing themselves over despair from the Trump win. Happy days for you.

[Smutly]

So the final numbers for #ElectionDay are:

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted Clinton
25.5% voted Trump

Now that's a mandate!

(I want to go and listen to Alex Jones this morning and I don't at the same time, something wrong with me)

I hear you. I haven't been able to resist roaming the liberal websites to wallow in their dismay.

I really shouldn't but I am finding the tears of Clinton supporters too delicious to resist.

8 confirmed reports of trans Americans killing themselves over despair from the Trump win. Happy days for you.

I looked for a source on this and can't find it. Can you supply one?

[coopasonic]

http://www.snopes.com/transgender-suici ... -election/

[Fireball]

So the final numbers for #ElectionDay are:

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted Clinton
25.5% voted Trump

Now that's a mandate!

(I want to go and listen to Alex Jones this morning and I don't at the same time, something wrong with me)

I hear you. I haven't been able to resist roaming the liberal websites to wallow in their dismay.

I really shouldn't but I am finding the tears of Clinton supporters too delicious to resist.

8 confirmed reports of trans Americans killing themselves over despair from the Trump win. Happy days for you.

I looked for a source on this and can't find it. Can you supply one?

I was told this in a direct conversation with a friend who works for one of the largest trans rights organizations. She specifically used the word "confirmed," and given her role in the organization, I presume there is a basis for her saying that. I hope it's not true.

[Smutly]

So the final numbers for #ElectionDay are:

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote
25.6% voted Clinton
25.5% voted Trump

Now that's a mandate!

(I want to go and listen to Alex Jones this morning and I don't at the same time, something wrong with me)

I hear you. I haven't been able to resist roaming the liberal websites to wallow in their dismay.

I really shouldn't but I am finding the tears of Clinton supporters too delicious to resist.

8 confirmed reports of trans Americans killing themselves over despair from the Trump win. Happy days for you.

I looked for a source on this and can't find it. Can you supply one?

I was told this in a direct conversation with a friend who works for one of the largest trans rights organizations. She specifically used the word "confirmed," and given her role in the organization, I presume there is a basis for her saying that. I hope it's not true.

I hope it's not true as well. I think there are a lot of things being said post-election with a lot of hyperbole, but this number of suicides is extreme.

[wire]

I learned something interesting a while back and thought I'd share it. What I learned was "motivated reasoning" which is a form of confirmation bias.

Motivated reasoning leads people to confirm what they already believe, while ignoring contrary data. But it also drives people to develop elaborate rationalizations to justify holding beliefs that logic and evidence have shown to be wrong. Motivated reasoning responds defensively to contrary evidence, actively discrediting such evidence or its source without logical or evidentiary justification. Clearly, motivated reasoning is emotion driven. It seems to be assumed by social scientists that motivated reasoning is driven by a desire to avoid cognitive dissonance. Self-delusion, in other words, feels good, and that's what motivates people to vehemently defend obvious falsehoods.

Examples of motivated reasoning:

• the Apollo moon landing was a hoax;
  climate change is a hoax;
  evolution is a hoax;
  9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration;
  Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11;
  the Holocaust didn't happen;
  AIDS is not caused by HIV;
  vaccines cause autism;
  Barack Obama was not born in the United States.

This isn't pointed at just one side...people on both sides have created their own narrative based on inaccurate data.

Here is a Ted Talk by Julia Galef who talks about soldier and scout mindsets. Soldier mindset people are prone to tribalism and defensiveness. Scout mindset people want to examine and test their own beliefs. I like to think I fit into the Scout Mindset...and funny thing is I was a Cavalry Scout in the Army so that fits at least.

[Combustible Lemur]

I learned something interesting a while back and thought I'd share it. What I learned was "motivated reasoning" which is a form of confirmation bias.

Motivated reasoning leads people to confirm what they already believe, while ignoring contrary data. But it also drives people to develop elaborate rationalizations to justify holding beliefs that logic and evidence have shown to be wrong. Motivated reasoning responds defensively to contrary evidence, actively discrediting such evidence or its source without logical or evidentiary justification. Clearly, motivated reasoning is emotion driven. It seems to be assumed by social scientists that motivated reasoning is driven by a desire to avoid cognitive dissonance. Self-delusion, in other words, feels good, and that's what motivates people to vehemently defend obvious falsehoods.

Examples of motivated reasoning:

• the Apollo moon landing was a hoax;
  climate change is a hoax;
  evolution is a hoax;
  9/11 was an inside job by the Bush administration;
  Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11;
  the Holocaust didn't happen;
  AIDS is not caused by HIV;
  vaccines cause autism;
  Barack Obama was not born in the United States.

This isn't pointed at just one side...people on both sides have created their own narrative based on inaccurate data.

Here is a Ted Talk by Julia Galef who talks about soldier and scout mindsets. Soldier mindset people are prone to tribalism and defensiveness. Scout mindset people want to examine and test their own beliefs. I like to think I fit into the Scout Mindset...and funny thing is I was a Cavalry Scout in the Army so that fits at least.

I'm definitely a scout, I'm constantly suspicious of my own tribe and find that information that I even suspect I'm wrong on needs to be remedied with research.

Speaking of, that research smells funny.

[Xmann]

I fucking hate Trump and what he stands for...

But I'm just calling BS on the suicides because of Trump being elected. The fact he was elected just "tipped" these people over the edge the past couple days?

Not buying these stories one bit.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Chaz]

Trans folks are dealing with opposition most of us will never even begin to know. Depression is a nasty thing. For someone battling that, then having the nation elect a president who has voiced a desire to remove what little legal protection the outgoing one afforded you has to be a really hard blow.

In short, yes, I could absolutely believe that 8 trans people have committed suicide with the election as the catalyst. Not only that, there will be more. Loss of hope is a terrible thing.

[Fitzy]

I fucking hate Trump and what he stands for...

But I'm just calling BS on the suicides because of Trump being elected. The fact he was elected just "tipped" these people over the edge the past couple days?

Not buying these stories one bit.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

It happens. They were probably already being bullied. They may have had unsupportive parents or relatives.They were living in a world on the edge of hopelessness, with that little bit of hope coming from the direction the country was moving in. The right wing and Christian conservative wing of the Republican party are rabidly anti homosexual and just look at the way Republicans are treating a bathroom issue. Can you imagine being a transgendered teen in this situation?

Trump getting elected could easily be seen as a final straw to people in this position. They are looking at a bleak future in which there is no hope. None. They see the entire country rising up against them. You may not believe it, but it happens.

If you know anyone who is suffering that bleakness please help. There are people who care. 1-800-273-8255. The Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

[Blackhawk]

A lot of gay/trans people saw the trend over the past decade and came out or opened up about it because, for the first time in our history they felt like they were safe. Society was turning away from the people who would have mistreated them, and the law was protecting them.

Having society openly approve of someone with Trump's ideas immediately suggested that society wasn't as much on their side as they'd thought, and the promise to strip away their legal protections left those who have come out at risk for losing their homes, their jobs, their marriages, and even their lives (even if it isn't likely, it is much more of a possibilty.) And now they are exposed and in the open. It has got to be absolutely terrifying, and must also seem like a betrayal from a society that they were finally beginning to trust.

[Enough]

I fucking hate Trump and what he stands for...

But I'm just calling BS on the suicides because of Trump being elected. The fact he was elected just "tipped" these people over the edge the past couple days?

Not buying these stories one bit.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

It happens. They were probably already being bullied. They may have had unsupportive parents or relatives.They were living in a world on the edge of hopelessness, with that little bit of hope coming from the direction the country was moving in. The right wing and Christian conservative wing of the Republican party are rabidly anti homosexual and just look at the way Republicans are treating a bathroom issue. Can you imagine being a transgendered teen in this situation?

Trump getting elected could easily be seen as a final straw to people in this position. They are looking at a bleak future in which there is no hope. None. They see the entire country rising up against them. You may not believe it, but it happens.

If you know anyone who is suffering that bleakness please help. There are people who care. 1-800-273-8255. The Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

Thanks for this post, very helpful and diplomatic.

[Xmann]

Let me say that my post wasn't meant to be insensitive.

In fact, I have what I would think is more personal experience with the homosexual and trans community than the average person.

My wife's 2 best friends of 20+ years are homosexual men. I have become good friends with these men the past 5 years or so and have met some of the nicest people I have ever come across...and these are gay men and women. I have vacationed with these men and was part of their wedding ceremony a few years back.

My wife and I are also close with a couple who have a homosexual and trans son, that we've known since he was a young child. We've seen the heartache and shared tears for this young man and his family because of who he is.

Having said that, I'm just seeing these reports as media sensationalism. I have seen the desperation, but I honestly don't know how Trump's election was the final straw.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Fitzy]

Also for anyone in the LGBT community who would like help with suicide there is the Trevor Project. 1-866-488-7386.

People really do care.

[Fireball]

Also, let me be clear that I don't think Rip wants anybody to die. But he said he was enjoying watching liberals being despondent, and I wanted to make it clear what the consequences of that despondency can be.

[Defiant]

As I said, I have a friend who has stated that a fellow survivor of "conversion" therapy committed suicide. And I absolutely believe it. He's not prone to exaggeration or partisan bullshit - he's even confident that Republican allies will "moderate the swings against us and protect us", this after learning that his friend committed suicide.

God, I hope he's right.

[Defiant]

Rip is a bully and a troll. The best response to him is to ignore him (or report him if he goes over the line)

Now if only we could do that to Trump.

[Fitzy]

Let me say that my post wasn't meant to be insensitive.

In fact, I have what I would think is more personal experience with the homosexual and trans community than the average person.

My wife's 2 best friends of 20+ years are homosexual men. I have become good friends with these men the past 5 years or so and have met some of the nicest people I have ever come across...and these are gay men and women. I have vacationed with these men and was part of their wedding ceremony a few years back.

My wife and I are also close with a couple who have a homosexual and trans son, that we've known since he was a young child. We've seen the heartache and shared tears for this young man and his family because of who he is.

Having said that, I'm just seeing these reports as media sensationalism. I have seen the desperation, but I honestly don't know how Trump's election was the final straw.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Because they are scared. Even today things are not good for many in the LBGT community. Especially among the young. Yes there have been gains and that had to be a ray of hope in a bleak world. Tuesday the clouds came back. Thicker than before because you'd actually seen the sun.

It's not just a fear of what Trump will do. It's a fear of what people who supported him, or people who hate the LBGT community will do. You've been bullied your whole life, now the president and half the country are apparently saying that's not only ok, it's great!

It's not just the LGBT community either. It's been discussed here, minority communities are scared too.

I saw a tweet that said, "If you're not scared today, that's white privilege." I suspect many people see that and disregard it, scoff at it, or get angry. It's true though. A lot of people are scared. Terrified even.

If you have the opportunity to speak with someone who is scared of this. Please don't dismiss it. Seriously. I am begging people. Listen to them. Don't speak. Just listen. It is hard to understand if you're not from that community. Listening can help you understand.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Having said that, I'm just seeing these reports as media sensationalism. I have seen the desperation, but I honestly don't know how Trump's election was the final straw.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Thankfully, it remains unsubstantiated according to Snopes.

[msduncan]

The really fantastic thing about this Christmas season is knowing that the SCOTUS is safe for years to come. It was the biggest item on my wish list this season.

Hopefully we can get another appointment or two to make sure of it.

[Rip]

Also, let me be clear that I don't think Rip wants anybody to die. But he said he was enjoying watching liberals being despondent, and I wanted to make it clear what the consequences of that despondency can be.

I certainly don't want anyone to die. I also don't want people burning effigies of a President elect in the street, writing hateful and racist messages on stuff, or beating up Trump supporters on the street simply for being Trump supporters.

Hopefully all of this is minimal and short-lived and the country can get back to at least pretending to act like adults.

On a positive note I would have to think talk of Peter Thiel running the transition team should be at least an indicator that Trump will not be n any hurry to walk back any LGBT rights advancements. In fact I will go farther and predict were one to hit his desk he would veto it.

[Fitzy]

The really fantastic thing about this Christmas season is knowing that the SCOTUS is safe for years to come. It was the biggest item on my wish list this season.

Hopefully we can get another appointment or two to make sure of it.

Are you ok with gay marriage being at risk for your Christmas list? I'm honestly curious. I think I've seen you claim you support marriage equality. If the price of your guns is another person's very right to marry, are you ok with that?

[msduncan]

Also, let me be clear that I don't think Rip wants anybody to die. But he said he was enjoying watching liberals being despondent, and I wanted to make it clear what the consequences of that despondency can be.

I certainly don't want anyone to die. I also don't want people burning effigies of a President elect in the street, writing hateful and racist messages on stuff, or beating up Trump supporters on the street simply for being Trump supporters.

Hopefully all of this is minimal and short-lived and the country can get back to at least pretending to act like adults.

On a positive note I would have to think talk of Peter Thiel running the transition team should be at least an indicator that Trump will not be n any hurry to walk back any LGBT rights advancements. In fact I will go farther and predict were one to hit his desk he would veto it.

He's definitely not anti LGBT:

[msduncan]

The really fantastic thing about this Christmas season is knowing that the SCOTUS is safe for years to come. It was the biggest item on my wish list this season.

Hopefully we can get another appointment or two to make sure of it.

Are you ok with gay marriage being at risk for your Christmas list? I'm honestly curious. I think I've seen you claim you support marriage equality. If the price of your guns is another person's very right to marry, are you ok with that?

The difference between a leftist court and Robert's court that tilts conservative is that Robert's court respects court precedent. They've already ruled on gay marriage and that ruling will stand.

[Fitzy]

The really fantastic thing about this Christmas season is knowing that the SCOTUS is safe for years to come. It was the biggest item on my wish list this season.

Hopefully we can get another appointment or two to make sure of it.

Are you ok with gay marriage being at risk for your Christmas list? I'm honestly curious. I think I've seen you claim you support marriage equality. If the price of your guns is another person's very right to marry, are you ok with that?

The difference between a leftist court and Robert's court that tilts conservative is that Robert's court respects court precedent. They've already ruled on gay marriage and that ruling will stand.

You honestly believe that if Trump gets to replace Ginsburg with, as he's promised, Scalia like justices the Supreme Court will pass up the opportunity to overturn abortion rights? Or if a state decides to challenge the marriage equality rights they will say, naw. We're good?

[Rip]

The really fantastic thing about this Christmas season is knowing that the SCOTUS is safe for years to come. It was the biggest item on my wish list this season.

Hopefully we can get another appointment or two to make sure of it.

Are you ok with gay marriage being at risk for your Christmas list? I'm honestly curious. I think I've seen you claim you support marriage equality. If the price of your guns is another person's very right to marry, are you ok with that?

The difference between a leftist court and Robert's court that tilts conservative is that Robert's court respects court precedent. They've already ruled on gay marriage and that ruling will stand.

You honestly believe that if Trump gets to replace Ginsburg with, as he's promised, Scalia like justices the Supreme Court will pass up the opportunity to overturn abortion rights? Or if a state decides to challenge the marriage equality rights they will say, naw. We're good?

Absolutely.

[msduncan]

The really fantastic thing about this Christmas season is knowing that the SCOTUS is safe for years to come. It was the biggest item on my wish list this season.

Hopefully we can get another appointment or two to make sure of it.

Are you ok with gay marriage being at risk for your Christmas list? I'm honestly curious. I think I've seen you claim you support marriage equality. If the price of your guns is another person's very right to marry, are you ok with that?

The difference between a leftist court and Robert's court that tilts conservative is that Robert's court respects court precedent. They've already ruled on gay marriage and that ruling will stand.

You honestly believe that if Trump gets to replace Ginsburg with, as he's promised, Scalia like justices the Supreme Court will pass up the opportunity to overturn abortion rights? Or if a state decides to challenge the marriage equality rights they will say, naw. We're good?

Roberts runs his court on precedent. I firmly believe they will stand by that ruling. They don't operate like an activist court. That's not what conservative judges do. They respect precedent.

[Fitzy]

Wow. I do not have your faith. We shall see.

[Blackhawk]

MSD, I hope you're right, and I'm glad you're still around here.

[Defiant]

If you have the opportunity to speak with someone who is scared of this. Please don't dismiss it. Seriously. I am begging people. Listen to them. Don't speak. Just listen. It is hard to understand if you're not from that community. Listening can help you understand.

This, especially for now. But for the future*, go further - fight for them and stand up for injustice.

[Defiant]

Personally, I think the Democrats should filibuster everything until the Senate confirms Garland. Or at the very least, filibuster any other SC nominee until they do.

[msduncan]

If you have the opportunity to speak with someone who is scared of this. Please don't dismiss it. Seriously. I am begging people. Listen to them. Don't speak. Just listen. It is hard to understand if you're not from that community. Listening can help you understand.

This, especially for now. But for the future*, go further - fight for them and stand up for injustice.

I've been engaging people that I know who were on the other side. I know how they feel. I felt the same in 2008 and 2012, however they have an added angst of being scared. I don't recall being scared and so I know it must be worse for them. My facebook is filled with Trump supporters doing victory laps and I refuse to do it. I have spoken up about the protests and violent protests because it's not something we should want to make a habit of after an election.

[Zarathud]

I'm not sure it's worth it to keep existing on this planet anymore.

Don't let the bastards win.

I plan to join a gym and get healthier because I am NOT going to miss the day when Trump ceases being President.

[msduncan]

Personally, I think the Democrats should filibuster everything until the Senate confirms Garland. Or at the very least, filibuster any other SC nominee until they do.

Well the precedent has been set to eliminate filibusters for court appointments. The Republicans will eliminate the filibuster for Supreme Court appointments.