Temple of Elemental Evil

[Flatlander]

I've had this one for several months, but am only now getting down to playing it, and have a couple of questions.

When my wizard casts identify on an item it costs 100 gold. Is this a bug? I've got patch #2.

Is spellcraft anything like the lore skill from Baldur's Gate II? Does it help a character identify items without burning cash, or does it just ID spells being used against the party in combat?

How about use magical device? Is it just intended for rogues to be able to use items they normally couldn't or is it also for the traditional magical characters (wizard, sorcerer, cleric)?

[Kadoth Nodens]

Identify costing 100gp is not a bug. It's definitely annoying early on, but by the time your party is about 3rd-4th level, you'll hardly notice the cost.

Spellcraft (AFAIK) only identifies spells cast in combat.

I'm not sure about how Use Magic Devices works. I never actually needed it.

[Flatlander]

Thanks for the reply.


I've played through the Baldur's gate series and the Icewind dale games, so I got a little set in my ways as to how some of the skills and spells work. Being able to automatically id stuff using a high lore skill sure saved time.

I guess I was hoping there would be some way for my supposedly wise/brainy wizard or cleric who is carrying an entire pack full of cure light wounds potions, and has the ability to brew potions of cure light wounds, to be able to tell that the unidentified item he just picked up which looks, tastes, and smells exactly like a potion of cure light wounds, is in fact a potion of cure light wounds, without having to spend a bunch of cash on it.

OTOH, I do really like having the ability to craft magic items and put better enchantments on magic weapons/armor. That's a nice addition. I guess it's something new from the 3.5 editon?

[Kadoth Nodens]

I guess I was hoping there would be some way for my supposedly wise/brainy wizard or cleric who is carrying an entire pack full of cure light wounds potions, and has the ability to brew potions of cure light wounds, to be able to tell that the unidentified item he just picked up which looks, tastes, and smells exactly like a potion of cure light wounds, is in fact a potion of cure light wounds, without having to spend a bunch of cash on it.

I played thorugh twice & I only identified a few of the potions. I relied on spells for healing in battle, then just drank the blue potions to heal any leftover damage afterwards without identifying them.

The problems with this are you occasionally "waste" a potion by drinking a very good one when a mediocre one would've done just fine & every once in a rare while, you'll drink poision by mistake. (If you get poisoned, then start randomly drinking the non-blue potions & hope you get cured. )

Also, I think that maybe bards auto identify stuff occasionally. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I know that I'd occasionally get loot that didn't need to be identified when I played with a bard in the party.

[RunningMn9]

I am prepping myself to begin playing ToEE in the next few days. I understand that it's not that long of a game (according to Smoove_B), but the box does "allege" that it can have some good replayability.

I was planning on playing as "good" guys, and then replaying at a later date as "bad" guys. Does the game have that kind of replayability? Or is that just marketing hype?

[Kadoth Nodens]

I was planning on playing as "good" guys, and then replaying at a later date as "bad" guys. Does the game have that kind of replayability? Or is that just marketing hype?

I played it through once evil, then once good about 6 months later, so it lived up to the hype for me.

Without being too spolierish, there's a big honkin' dungeon that you have to hack through. You'll do this if you're good or if you're evil & it will consume most of your time.

But there are many little things that change. NPCs that would fight a good party will join an evil party. The quest to hunt the bad guy becomes help the bad guy. The beginning is different. The endings are different. It's these little things + the amazing (and now a lot less buggy) engine that made the game worthwhile for me.

Also, FWIW, I had more fun with a Lawful Evil party than agood one. The game was still a hack fest, but you'd be suprised at the number of "reasonable" people & almost-people that you can meet in a dungeon.

[RunningMn9]

Thanks KN. This should be a good pickup for only $10.

You mentioned that it's a lot less buggy. Do I need to do more than patch 2? Smoove_B sent me some link to what looked like a third party add-on. Do I need stuff like that (I'd rather have everything installed before I start playing)?

[Kadoth Nodens]

It sounds like you are good to go. I used the last official patch + the a fan patch as well (Circle of Eight, maybe?) when I finished up the second time about 2 months ago. I had an occassional slow down, but no crashes. Plus the fan patch adds some interesting tweaks & locations.

[GargoyleBoy]

Identify costing 100gp is not a bug. It's definitely annoying early on, but by the time your party is about 3rd-4th level, you'll hardly notice the cost.

Spellcraft (AFAIK) only identifies spells cast in combat.

I'm not sure about how Use Magic Devices works. I never actually needed it.

the cost of identifying is a carry-over from pen&paper D&D. The "material component" for the Identify spell was a 100 gold piece value pearl, IIRC.

Use Magic Devices is a skill used by Theives (and Bards, I reckon), which enables them to use items not normally usable except by members of a particular class (such as a Wand of Cure Light Wounds - which would ordinarily only be usable by a Cleric, Druid, or Paladin. the Use Magic Devices skill allows the Rogue a chance to use it as well).

As far as TOEE... my brother bought me this game, but never sent it to me. I expect to get it around the end of this month (when I FLY all the way to PITTSBURGH and collect it IN PERSON. Rotten brother). I'm greatly looking forward to playing it.

[GargoyleBoy]

Thanks for the reply.


I've played through the Baldur's gate series and the Icewind dale games, so I got a little set in my ways as to how some of the skills and spells work. Being able to automatically id stuff using a high lore skill sure saved time.

I guess I was hoping there would be some way for my supposedly wise/brainy wizard or cleric who is carrying an entire pack full of cure light wounds potions, and has the ability to brew potions of cure light wounds, to be able to tell that the unidentified item he just picked up which looks, tastes, and smells exactly like a potion of cure light wounds, is in fact a potion of cure light wounds, without having to spend a bunch of cash on it.

OTOH, I do really like having the ability to craft magic items and put better enchantments on magic weapons/armor. That's a nice addition. I guess it's something new from the 3.5 editon?

I don't know if the game possesses the skill Alchemy, but in D&D a character can use Alchemy to identify potions, as well as other sundry alchemical items (like Alchemists Fire and Thunderstones).

[RunningMn9]

It sounds like you are good to go. I used the last official patch + the a fan patch as well (Circle of Eight, maybe?) when I finished up the second time about 2 months ago. I had an occassional slow down, but no crashes. Plus the fan patch adds some interesting tweaks & locations.

Circle of Eight sounds like what he sent me. I'll install that on top of Patch 2 and hope for the best.

[The Meal]

With the Co8 "fix" (which is a requirement, if you ask me), I believe the "read magic" cantrip will also identify potions, saving you 100GP each time.

~Neal

[Kraegor]

tried playin twice...but i started getting the impression that i could only lvl up to lvl 10 and i hate that...so i stopped playing..

is there a lvl cap in this game like BG1 had?

[Exodor]

There's a level cap, but I found a remover online.

Of course, my party had just hit level 10 when I stopped playing a few months ago, so I didn't get to test it out.

You can generate endless random encounters, and my impression was exploiting this feature would be the only way to earn enough XP to get beyond 10 anyway.

[Kraegor]

awww that's a game-killer for me tho,

my biggest thrill (in addition to great storyline) is the lvl up process and watching my chars become uber. heh that's why BG2 was so great whereas BG1 was sorta like a snack before lunch.

[Peacedog]

Definately install the Co8 fix.

[Smoove_B]

I really wish I converted the tips Peacedog et. al. gave to me regarding ToEE to a Word document or something. They were damn helpful.

[Peacedog]

We can totally recreate that. All I remember was that I was, as usual, not brief. And there was some number crunching.

[RunningMn9]

I fired it up last night and played a bit of the tutorial, just to get a feel of the game. From what I saw - this game is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Hopefully it's not just the tutorial - but I really liked the way it mimics providing the cheesy descriptions that used to be in the modules that the DM was supposed to read. And the turn-based combat is just what I wanted.

I'm very pleased with the prospects right now.

[The Meal]

I fired it up last night and played a bit of the tutorial, just to get a feel of the game. From what I saw - this game is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Hopefully it's not just the tutorial - but I really liked the way it mimics providing the cheesy descriptions that used to be in the modules that the DM was supposed to read.

The tactical combat ROXX, but unfortunately the room descriptions was just the tutorial.

~Neal

[Flatlander]

Thanks for the replies.

My hardy group of bickering fools has made it to the temple itself. Biggest hurdle so far has been fighting monsters that can only be hit with magic weapons. We ran into a Drelb (?) outside the temple. The paladin, the ranger, and the dwarf have spiffy masterwork weapons that look great, but do absolutely nothing against this guy. The group was reduced to running for their lives while the village drunk and the ranger's wolf killed the critter. (the wolf had magic fang cast on him)

Gotta find a shop with some affordable magic weapons or kill somebody who has one (maybe Elmo?).


I have to say, I'm really enjoying this game. The monster models look great, especially the big guys like the ogres and hill giant.

[RunningMn9]

The tactical combat ROXX, but unfortunately the room descriptions was just the tutorial.

~Neal

Gah. Why would they do that to me? I thought that was the perfect touch for making me feel like I was playing a D&D game. Drat.

But the tactical combat is still more along the lines of what I want, so I'm still sort of happy.

[Darrell999]

I really wish I converted the tips Peacedog et. al. gave to me regarding ToEE to a Word document or something. They were damn helpful.

Actually, I saved most of those tips from that Gone Gold thread. I'll copy and paste them in this post. Peacedog, if you want me to remove it for whatever reason (too long of a post or you want to do it yourself later), I'll agree to that.

For now...here's a bit of Gone Gold Glory! All of the text below is from Peacedog.

Cheers!

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Firstly, describe your party (in terms of ability scores and the like, including spell and feat information). Specific advice on that front can help, but it isn't possible to give any without knowing what you're doing. It is unlikely you've made severe character design mistakes. Feat selection can be pretty important though.

Understand that your character in AD&D that had all 14s was good for RPing and not much else, that guy is decently powerful in 3e (but you really want to push the primaries to 16+). Intelligence can be worthwhile for every class. Tumble, for example, allows you to move in combat without worrying over Attacks of Opportunity.

Describe the tacticw you are using. The two best level 1 spells in the early game are sleep and grease. Make liberal use of them, and fights will be easier. Characters who fall down incur AoOs when they get up (from targets in threat range, which is mostly just adjacent but farther for polearm users). AoOs are a critical part of combat now, so it is important to understand when they'll come about.

Flank targets (as was already suggested). You'll need to check the dice window to see fi you are properly flanking (eyeballing it will get you 9/10s of the way there). Flanking gives you a bonus to hit, and every little bit helps at low levels. Stack that with the right feets and good ability scores, and fighters suddenly hit reasonably often. Even at level 1. That makes your life much easier.

Speaking of that dice window - it's your bestest friend in the whole wide world. Bar none. You can learn the ins and outs by observing it in battle. You'll observe the mechanics that show your tactical breakdowns. Every +/- is explained (well, there were a few bugs way back when; dunno if they were fixed). It really helps to see why you are sucking royally, because you can take steps to avoid the mistakes once you recognize them.

A bow based character can do well, but if you didn't take the right feets they'll have a hard time for awhile (-4 penalty for shooting at an "engaged" enemy without the feat to nullify it).

A good monk is a tough character build because they "need" more abilities. But they can be fun.

Skimp on dex for warriors who will use heavier armor; they won't benefit from it most of the time anyway. Use the points for Str or Con. Or possibly wis (your will saves will inherently suck).

You haven't dealt with it yet, but there is a ready action that waits for an enemy spell caster to cast as pell, and then lets you make a move. Great for archers, it can be surprisingly useful for melee characters as well (I found at times pesky casters were squeezing of spells in between my whomping them; this helped eliminate that).

Rogues can be great melee fighters if you make sure they are flanking enemies.

*******************

So let's make some characters.

General advice:

Everything works upward now. Higher scores are better than lower numbers. Period. 25 ac is better than 22. 18 concentration is better than 12. A lock with a DC of 22 is harder to pick than one with a DC (difficulty class, a generic term used for any roll that needs to meet a target of some sort; DC is the target) of 15 (not better for the PCs, but better for whoever locked it!).

DCs (whether it is an armor class, spell resistance, or a lock DC) are generally d20 + relevant things + bonuses. Example: attack roll = d20 + Base Attack Bonus + str bonus + any feat or weapon bonuses. A level 10 fighter with longsword +2, 16 strength, weapon focus: longsword would be d20 + 10 + 3 + 2 + 1. For d20 + 16. Sometimes there is no d20 roll. Don't ask me to differentiate (I don't know; I'm pretty sure when you deal with spell resistance there is no d20 roll), and don't sweat it. Just look in the dice window if you think there was no roll for something.

Generic level up commentary: every class, race, gender, and political leaning gets an ability score increase every 4th level (4, 8, etc), and a feat every third (3, 6, 9, etc). Period. Everyone gets this. Nobody is denied these perks. Classess all get bonus feats based on their class at some pace, it differs per class. Sorcerers get like 1 per 5 levels or something. Fighters get 1 per 2 level (a human fighter is a feat machine. At level 10 you'll have 11 feats, iirc).

Forget everything you know about multiclassing and dual classing. Erase them from your brain. They no longer apply. There are two types of levels in 3e D&D. Character level (hereafter called Clevel) and class level (hereafter refered to as class name x, ex warrior 5; I'll refer to 3.5e as D&D). CLevel = the sum of your class levels. I Can't stress enough how important this mechanic is.
In previous versions, multi class characters were weird. General consensus seemed to be: very powerful early, lagged later on. An 8/8 F/Mu was more powerful than a level 8 charater, true. But was probably grouped with people in the low teens, and lagged behind them in terms of power (where the xp issues finally caught up).

In 3e, you can multiclass willy nilly. All that happens is you stack your classlevels. That means at every level up, you get the full benefits of what that class would have gotten. In D&D, that 8/8 guy is a level 16 character. He has 8d10 + 8d4 + 8*con bonus hps. He has 8 levels of fighter BaB (they get +1 per level, so +8) + 8 levels of wizard BaB (I think they get 1 per 2 levels, so he'd be at +12 total)), ditto save bonuses. He fights better than a level 8 fighter (and better than a level 16 wizard), and has all the feats, ability increases, and skill points of a level 16 character.

So keep that in mind if you want to multiclass. You can't multiclass at level 1, so that makes it sort of moot. Adding classes byond the first 2 gets tricky, you'll incur xp penalties (and you can get that with 2 classes, but I'll leave that discussion for later).

If you are patient, you'll probably roll up a better party than you'll create with point buy. Point buy will yield characters in the 16/16/14/14 (might be 12)/10/10 range, iirc. Or 16/14/14/14/14/12 or so. That's pretty good, but you can get characters with 18s and good scores elsewhere rolling (note that point buy is on a sliding scale; 1:1 until 14, then 2:1 to 16, then 3:1 to 18 iirc).

Abilitie scores are so much easier to think about now. Every score is on the same chart: 10-11 no bonus, 12-13 +1, 13-14 +2, 15-16 +3, etc. Mages and sorcerers get bonus spells for int and cha respectively (much like the cleric used to get with Wis). That bonus affects a wide range of activies. Example: strength bonus adds to Attack Bonus, damage, any strength-based skill. Con adds to hps per level, any con-based skill, and fortitude saving throws. Ability scores are more important now; each one governs many more things than in previous editions.

Base Attack Bonus (BAB): This is the replacement for Thac0. It is based entirely on class level (or combined class levels for multiclassers). Many things can add to attack bonus, but BaB is the foundation it builds on. Fighters get it the quickest (+1 per level). Mages the slowest (I believe +1 every 2 levels). BaB is how additional attacks are derived. If you can subtract 5 from BaB and still get a positive number, that characte has a second attack at that number. A level 5 fighter has 5 BaB. No second attack. The level 6 guy has 6. He gets 2 attacks, at +6 +1. A level 10 fighter gets two attacks at +10 +5. The level 12 fighter gets them at +12 +7 +2. Important: all the stuff that can add to attack bonus is added to every attack. So strength, magic weapon +s, feat bonuses, bonuses from flanking, etc add to each attack in the round. The afformentioned level 10 fighter has 2 attacks at +10 +5. But with that 16 strength, focus: longsword, and +2 longsword he attacks at +16/11 (+18/+13 if he craftily flanks an opponent).

Skills: the max a skill can be is CLevel + 3. So at level 1, 4 is the max. All skills are on a skill + ability modifier + any other bonuses system, for determining skill rank. "Other bonuses" can come from a number of areas (not important right now). Class skills are those your class has mastery over. 1 point spent nets you a 1 rank of skill (ex: a wizard who spends 4 skill points in concentration has concentration 4). If you invest in a skill not available to your class, you get .5 skill ranks per point invested. Any skills not available to your class are cross-class skills. A fighter buying tumble, for example. Cross class skill max = 1/2. A level 1 fighter could get tumble 2 for 4 skill points. A monk can get tumble 4 for 4 skill points.

There are some special skills that can't be taken as cross class skills. Wilderness lore and locks & traps come to mind.

Race Choice

Humans have 3 advantages: extra feat at level 1 (it can really help, too), extra skill point every level up (not insiginficant, but not great), and they're highest class is automatically their favored class (I'll leave that commentary for another time; it has to do with multiclassing). Humans can be a good choice, particularly for classes that need lots of skill points (rogues, spell casters).

Every other race tends to have a bonus to an ability score (offset by a penalty elsewhere) and other special abilities (elves get +1 to hit with longswords still, I think). The ability score bonus will allow you to get a 20 in that score, if you are using point buy character creation.

When in doubt, chose human. The bonus feat will be helpful at level 1. The rest is just preference and flavor, really. Why the makers of D&D didn't sit down and add race specific feats is beyond me. They should have had a handful available for every race. I digress.

Party makeup:

I'd recommend the following: cleric, mage, fighter. Everything else is up to you. A second fighter type is a good idea for someone trying to learn the system. It will make your life easier. 3 fighter types isn't a terrible idea. Though you can get the guys in homlet pretty early, and it is worth doing so for now.

A thief is up to you. His locks & traps wont get a ton of use, unfortunately. You can compliment him with fighter or ranger levels, though, to make him a better fighter. He can really kick butt, but we've got to design him very specifically.

If you want to go offensive, go fighter-fighter type-ranger-cleric-mage. Note that a pure fighter will be a better bow user than a ranger (but not by much' the fighter can get all the bow feats and still have feats left over to spend on other stuff; and he'll have more to use than a ranger will iirc), but rangers bring other abilities to the table (racial enemies work differently now, and are much cooler). A monk could work there, but you might find them troublesome at first. A hulking half orc barbarian could be fun for the second fighter type, but a paladin works as well.

Everything you needed to know about sorcerers: the new spell casting class is an arcane spell caster. They differ from wizards in a couple of important ways.

Wizards:

Wizards get many more bonus feats. This is cool if you want to make lots of magic items, and use meta magic feats. Unfortunately, I think meta magic feats are a huge waste of time (we can discuss them later if you like), so that pretty much just means extra magic item creation feats.
Wizards know many more spells for each spell level. A wizard can fill his book with every spell at every level. You can still scribe scrolls you find, just like in 2e.
Must prepare/memorize spells the same way you're familiar with them doing (Actually, the mechanics changed, but they're irrelevant here. It takes less time to preparee/memorize spells now, is all).
Use int as their main casting stat
can "specialize" in schools of magic. I never do this, so I can't delve into the mechanics right now
Wizards have flowing bierds, gnarled staves, and meddle in the affairs of kindgoms.

Sorcerers:


Get less feats. Not a huge deal IMO.
Have far fewer spells per spell level in their repetoire. They can only learn spells at level up; no scribing. They'll never know all, or even half, the spells at a given spell level.
Don't prepare/memorize spells. That's right, you cast spells spontaneously on the fly.
Get more spell casts per level than wizards. A level 1 wizard with decent int can cast 2 level 1 spells a day. That same sorcerer, can cast 4 or 5.
Use Charisma as their casting stat
Are much sexier than wizards

I'm going to recommend a sorcerer. The wizard will start with 3-4 spells in his spell book (and quickly add more when scrolls appear), and get 2 spell casts. Your sorcerer will start with 2 and get 4. Allow yourself to be limited on what spells you can take - you'll still have alot of flexibility and you'll get more bang out of the character between rests.

Give spell casters 18 in their primary casting stat. At all costs. It will maximize their spell casting ability from the get go. That's good for Smoove, and what's good for smoove is bad for the bad guys.

********************

Feats & You:

Good early feats for fighter types: weapon focus: weapon choice (+1 attack), cleave (if you kill a monster, and there is another one in your threat range, you immediately make a bonus attack at highest BaB agaisnt that monster), power attack (trade to hit for damage. Important prerequisite for something pretty good that escapes me).

Dodge isn't bad (+1 extra ac against 1 attack per round). You need it to take mobility later. That isn't a must, but it can be useful depending on your tactics (you'll need to look up exactly what it does; I don't want to say something wrong and screw it up; I believe it allows you to make some sort of roll to avoid an AoO). Be aware of the dex requirements involved for mobility.

Fighters can take weapon specialization. They must take it in a weapon they have focus in. +2 damage. There are greater weapon focus and specialization feats, iirc. They add an additional +1 to hit and +2 damage, I think. Every little bit can help. Note, taking normal weapon focus over and over just gives you focus in multiple weapons. A waste. The same applies for specialization & improved critical.

You'll probably want to pick up improved critical: weapon (you see where these feats allow you to get really good at 1 type of weapon; this replaced the proficiency system). So plan for it. It doubles your threat range with that weapon. We'll talk about that below. For now, know that this is a good thing.

Iron Will can be a good idea. Your will saves will probably be lacking (not so for paladin or monk, of course). This might help boost them a bit.

Improved intiative never hurts. Getting the drop on spell casters and deadly foes is important. And moving first allows you to dictate things. Heavy armor might prevent this feat from working, so read up on it.

Whirlwind I never got to play with it. It has a long list of prereqs, meaning the character build must be specific. Probably a blast.

For Ranged attackers, you must take the feat that removes the -4 penalty for shooting into melee as your first feat. Must. You'll get frustrated if you don't. I can't rember the name of it. There is another feat, with a similar name, that should be feat 2. I forget what it does (I know, that sucks). The ranged attack feats can be fun though. Make cheese from enemy spellcasters, and then sup from their entrails.

Spell casters: combat casting can be useful. Item creation feats will net you some serious fun. Stuff that imrpvoes iniative can obviously help out alot. I think toughness (+3 hps) is a waste of time personally.

Character tips at random:

Paladins lay on hands is much better now (fueled by Cha). Paladins add their cha bonus to all saving throws. A very useful ability.

Monks can be really fun. YOu need to build them like they sound: quick moving butt kickers (but it can take them some levels to come into their own). Monks have special unarmed rules - their damage improves, they get Ki strikes at later levels (fists strike as magic weapons; and it gets better as they go), innate spell resistance, free unarmed fighting feat (no AoOs when you fight unarmed), flurry of blows (take 1 extra attack per round at highest BaB. However, every attack made suffers a -2; at higher levels, that doesn't matter, and this rocks).

If you are going to play one, consider a druid. A druid can make the kick butt monk magic items. Stuff that will greatly boost damage and AC for monks.

Rogues if you aren't flanking in melee with them, you are wasting your and far worse my time. Rogues get sneak attacks (no more backstabbing); the additional damage dice improves as they level. When can you make a sneak attack? whenever an opponent is flatfooted. That means opponents don't get their dex bonus. You sneak attack when flanking enemies. A level 5 rogue gets 3d6 bonus damage, iirc. Per hit. Rogues are probably the only reason to make use of dual wielding (it requires a melee specific build obviously; it will cut into your ability to make them decent bow users).

YOu can make AoOs from afar, within 30 feet iirc.

Spell caster: be mindful of your own warriors, but all "hold" type spells are great. Entanglement, web, etc. Any ranged attackers will have a field day with pinned down bad guys.
Some important mechanics to be aware of:

Critical hits:

Longsword: 1-8, 19-20x2
Axe: 1-10, 20x3
Rapier: 1-6, 18-20x2

I might have some of the individual numbers wrong there. The first listing is damage, obviously. The second is the critical threat range and damage modifier.

The threat range is what you must roll, natural, on the to hit attack to "threaten" a critical. But there are no garuntees in this crazy, mixed-up, world. If you threaten a critical, you then roll another tohit attack, with full modifiers, against the target. If it his, you scored a critical. If not, you scored a normal hit.

Our level 5 fighter from the previous post (let's call him Gutboy Barrelhouse) attacks a monster with AC 20.

He rolls a 20!

Time for the critical roll.

With AC 20, gutboy (recall that +16 modified attack bonus) needs only to roll a 4 to score a critical. Unfortunately for him, he rolls a 2, and just figures normal damage: 1-8 + 3 (str) + 2 (longsword). Had he scored a critical, it would be: (1-8+3+2)x2.

And that's why the Improved Critical feet rocks. It doubles the threat range. Weapons with a 20 threat range become 19-20. That rapier is suddenly 15-20, meaning you should score critical threats 25% of the time (give or take; you know statistics).

It goes without saying, but scoring a critical is good for you, bad for them. The damage can really fly upwards. Sneak attacks are added after critical damage is figured. I think.

Concentration & spell disruption

Your spell casters have an important skill called concentration. It allows them to cast spells under duress. For exmaple, when they're riddled with arrows right before casting the spell. In previous editions, damaging someone disrupted the spell and that was that (well, I'm not real clear on the mechanics for 2e, so there might be more to them than I realize).

If a spell caster is casting a spell and is damaged, said spell caster makes a concentration check. The DC = the damage inflicted (plus some number I think. You'll see it in the dice window). The caster adds con bonuses to the check. Suceed, and you cast the spell anyway. Fail and it is lost. So sometimes you'll pull off a fantastic move to disrupt a spell caster and it won't matter. Bummer.

There is a feat to improve this for casters: combat casting. You have to be casting on the defensive to use it, iirc. That's something you must select to do from the radial menu (sorry, I forget where everything is in that thing, since I haven't played in forever). This feat nets a nifty +4 bonus though.

Weapon reach:

Some weapons have reach now. It only comes into play for weapons like longspears, polearms, and the like. This used to be bugged in ToEE, so take this with a grain of salt.

Reach weapons are only supposed to be useable at their range. So no adjacent attacks with halberds in 3.5e. That wasn't true in ToEE, so if they haven't fixed it and you get frustrated, abuse the system. Reach weapons are nifty because you extend your ability to make AoOs. anyone trying to engage you in melee will have to enter your threat range, and incur an AoO (generally speaking).

Note, you'll have to deal with the same issue when fighting monsters like giants.

Attacks of Opportunity:

Ok, this can get confusing. You incur an AoO when:


You enter or leave someone's threat range. Please note that threat range is dicated not only by weapon but monster size (see: giant).
You are "engaged" in melee and try to do anything besides attack a monster with a weapon or take a 5-foot step. This includes drinking a potion, making an unarmed attack, reading a scroll, casting a spell, lacing your boots, etc.
Um, that's all I can think of.

It was said once before, but it bears repeating now: the 5-foot step is your buddy. Learn to make use of it. use it when you need to get in range. Use it when you need to back off to quaff a potion (or just observe the battle). You'll probably want to hot key it.

Run!

Not from combat (which is difficult at best due to implementation; though that may have been patched). But rather, to it. The sprint option allows you to quadruple your move. But all you can do is spring, and it *must* be in a straight line. Unfortunately there were times when the engine had problems with this, refusing to allow you the full sprint distance over a seemingly level and straight path. Still, make use of it. You can close on monsters quickly with it. Watch those AoOs.

Lastly, have you gotten comfortable with the general combat cursor interface? I'm talking about the green line thingy that is drawn from the character to where the cursor is, showing what a move would do (and also any AoOs you might incur doing it). Remember, if there is green left in the tank, you can do anything you want (actually, there are some exceptions, but lets ingore them. And if one comes up, those are called "full actions" and you can't move and do them, and you'll be all the wiser for discovering what they are. Actually, I think I just remembered one: you can't use all of your attacks in around except with full action. So a level 10 fighter can attack on the move, but he just gets 1 attack, not 2).

******************

I know one thing I forgot to cover:

Attacks of Opportunity:

Each character/creature/etc gets 1 AoO per round. That's it. The feat combat reflexes gives 1 + dex bonus AoOs per round (or maybe it was just dex bonus AoOs per round).

[/quote]

[Blackhawk]

Fantastic - we are getting the lost valuables from Gone Gold back, one post at a time.

[Zarathud]

After hearing about the bugs in TOEE, I bought the pen-and-paper module instead. Next weekend a couple of friends and I are going to start the campaign in the old fashioned way. If the Dungeon Master is buggy, we'll just have to get him drunk.

"I attack the darkness!"

[Lee]

Not sure if anyone noticed but there is a new Circle of Eight patch out. 3.04

Patch readme:

Known Bugs:
-----------
o Dimension Door does not allow transport of other characters
o Temporary/Semi-permanent stat bonuses do not add to spells/day
(this is actually a real pain, because as far as I can tell, there's no
damned good way to figure out when to remove spells that are no longer known)
(okay, this is possible, now I just have to figure out how to hijack things
so that everytime any of your stats changes, all your spells are recalculated.)

Features to Ignore:
-------------------
o Quarterstaff can not be used as a double weapon
o Monks can not use unarmed strikes in replacement of their on-hand attacks
o Flurry of Blows won't work if you're using non-monk weapons
o Wizards should be able to non-spontaneously memorize spells using undischarged
spell slots (+ 15 minute wait.)
o It'd be nice if the memorization list had those nifty meta-magic colored ball thingies

Core Changes, Modifications, and Fixes:
---------------------------------------
o duggelz's level uncapper installed in this version.
o Npc's level up as PC's installed in this version.

Feats/Skills
------------
o Halflings should now get the +4 Hide modifier due to small size
o Skill Focus(Perform), Skill Focus(Survival), Skill Focus(Tumble),
Skill Focus(Use Device) should work and give +3 modifiers to the appropriate skill
o You should no longer be able to take Power Attack at creation if you have a
Strength of 12 (or any other strength dependent skill.)
o You should no longer be able to take Quick Draw at creation if you do not
have a BAB of +1.
o Greater Flurry (well, the improved version of Flurry of Blows at level 11)
should now work.
o Ki Strike should now add the adamantium damage type at level 16.
o Open hand damage for large sized monks should be correctly calculated.
o Unarmed Damage for non-monk enlarged medium sized creatures should now be 1d4.
(May have been 1d3 before. Not sure.)
o Monk and Barbarian Fast Movement bonuses split. Monk Fast Movement bonus is treated
as an enhancement bonus (as per PHB 3.5), and thus does not stack with Haste or
Expeditious Retreat. Barbarian Fast Movement is treated as an unnamed bonus, and thus
stacks with Expeditious Retreat. Haste does not work correctly with it yet.
o Diamond Body added. (Copy of Venom Immunity)
o Diamond Soul added. (Modded version of Spell Resistance)
o Abundant Step feat name added. (Doesn't do anything)
o Quivering Palm feat name added. (Doesn't do anything)
o Empty Body feat name added. (Doesn't do anything)
o Perfect Self feat name added. (Doesn't do anything)
o Base intelligence now used for calculating skill points.
o Odd bug with regards to raising intelligence on level up - would occassionally
not give you an extra skill point even if you should've gotten one - but required
that you had previously selected another stat as your attribute to be raised,
and then selected intelligence. Should be fixed.
o Half point skill ranks should now display correctly in the level up dialog.
o Class skills of cleric domains are now properly treated as actual class skills when
leveling up cleric.
o Class skills of cleric domains are now always correctly treated as class skills
for the purposes of calculating the maximum rank possible, even when not leveling
up cleric.
o Can now increase the rank of non-class skills of the class being leveled up to
the maximum rank possible if the skill is a class skills of another of your classes.
o Barbarians now retain their +10 movement while wearing medium armor.
o Barbarians no longer maintain their +10 movement while heavily encumbered.
o Monk special abilities (Flurry of Blows, Monk AC Bonuses, and Fast Movement) no longer
apply while monks are medium or heavily encumbered.
o Monk/Barbarians (all two of them) will still get their +10 movement even while wearing
armor. I think. I didn't actually have a Monk/Barbarian to test this out with.
o Stunning Fist now has (monk_level) + (non_monk_levels / 4) charges per, well...
rest period, probably. Used to be (level) number of charges.
o Selecting an attribute to improve during level up will now clear your feat selection
choices. This was done as the simplest way to avoid invalid feat selections. (I.e.,
raise your strength to 13, pick power attack, and then raise some other attribute.)
o Can no longer raise skills if you have negative skill points. (Okay, it didn't happen
that often, and it wouldn't actually let you finish leveling up if you did have
negative skill points, but it was still a bug.)
o Flurry of Blows no longer works with a non-monk weapon wielded in the off hand
- on further consideration, I'm removing this - according to the 3.5 FAQ, it should
work. Heck, Flurry of Blows should work even if the primary weapon is a non-monk
weapon
o Power Attack will only apply the attack penalties if you are wielding a non-light
weapon, or your primary attack is unarmed. Theoretically, if monks are ever capable
of doing unarmed strikes even while armed, Power Attack should more or less always be
on, but they're not, so it's not. Now to fix damage.
o Power Attack should apply a x1 damage bonus to unarmed attacks and one-handed weapons
when either an off-hand weapon is used or a shield is used. Light weapons get no
damage bonus, and any other case gets a x2 damage bonus.
o Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, and other skills that rely upon a weapon proficiency
will now recognize new weapon proficiencies you pick up when you multi-class into
another class.
o Rapid Reload and any other feats (are there any?) that rely upon having a crossbow
proficiency are now selectable when you multi-class into any other class than a druid.
Druid/fighters rejoice!

Spells
------
o Haste now provides an enhancement bonus of min(30, target's base speed) to movement.
This means that it will not stack with Monk's Fast Movement, but will stack with
Barbarian's Fast Movement. Furthermore, it will no longer cap movement at 2 x base
speed. Note, that it's the Barbarian's base speed unmodified by Fast Movement that's
used. Hasted Dwarven Barbarians move at 50.
o You can now use a higher level spell slot to memorize a spell. Go 20+ magic missiles!
o The left side of the spell book should now go up to spell level nine. Not that there
are any level nine spells for you to know. Heck, I don't think there's even a
chain lightning scroll.
o Level 5 metamagic feats will no longer be added to the end of the list (down by
level 9 spells.)
o Deleteing meta-magiced spells should no longer be as screwy. (The old code only
overwrote it with the last spell on the spellbook list - this should actually delete
it.)
o Meta-magic effects can now raise a spell to level 9
o Strength domain added to St. Cuthbert, as per manual
o Resurrection xp penalties should now work up to level 20.
o added the meta-magic color balls to spells on the memorization list

Dialog
------
o Rik - The conversation still jumps to 110 when you've acccepted
the Carpenter's Dilemma quest, but now you can ask Rik about the
barn, and only then does he mention Filliken's problem (120). If
you haven't heard about the barn yet, Rik won't mention it either
(240).
o Burne's puzzles (dialogue add in)

Items
-----
o corrected number of charges for Wand of Fear
o added OIF NO NPC PICKUP to Bracers +5 and misc wands
o restored original tutorial weapons and deleted Spugnoir's extr feats
o Masterwork Maul weapon type (changed from greatclub to warhammer)



============
Please Note:
============
o Have heard Reports that looting works correctly in Windowed Mode, and there is less "lag".
Looting did correctly work for me, in window mode, but LAG was not reduced signifigantly.
You can enable Windowed Mode by adding the "-window" to your shortcut to the game.

Right click on the shortcut and choose properties, then go to the 'Target' section of it
and add -window after the quotation marks.
Example:
"C : \ Program Files\Atari\Temple of Elemental Evil\ToEE.exe" -window

[Head]

That's great. Thanks Lee. But, I guess most of us are still going to have that slide show and long pauses when we're down in the Temple. I wish there was a fix for that. How did play testers miss that problem?

~Head

[Peacedog]

Actually, I saved most of those tips from that Gone Gold thread. I'll copy and paste them in this post. Peacedog, if you want me to remove it for whatever reason (too long of a post or you want to do it yourself later), I'll agree to that.

No, it's fine for you to post it wherever you want.

Ye bobs, was it really that long? I should try to streamline it some.

[Head]

oh....sorry! Let me re-phrase. Thanks Darrell999
for resurrecting that post we all thought was gone with the gold. Thanks Lee for the heads up on the lastest Co8 patch. But ultimately, thank you Peacedog for your streamlined post.

`Head

[dangerballs]

Here is a hint if you're not playing with the Co8 patch:

When you find the masterwork maul, DO NOT DROP OR SELL IT. There is only one in the original game and it is required for one of the end game scenarios.

[Peacedog]

It isn't streamlined yet. Let me dig out my manual, the 3.5e PHB, and play with it some. Ithink I can really alter it for the better.

[Darrell999]

Thanks Darrell999
for resurrecting that post we all thought was gone with the gold.

No problem, Head! (I know what you meant, that's ok) 8)
I just happened to have that thread--it makes me wonder how many other threads from GG are saved on people's computers. We could potentially have a GG renaissance of great posts and info like Peacedog's!

[Yog-Sothoth]

I've heard rumors that the latest DirectX upgrade stops your characters from being able to loot. Is that true, and if so is there any Co8 or other patch which fixes that?

Someday I'd like to replay ToEE, and by that time I'll probably have upgraded DirectX...

[GargoyleBoy]

So... I finally got this game, started playing a bit. this is a beautiful game.

I have a problem, though. I tried to download the much-ballyhooed "Circle of Eight" patch yesterday. I went to the site (www.c08.org), downloaded the zip file, copied it to minidisk, took it home, copied it to C:, and unzipped it only to discover it was a text file that said "file deleted."

Very nice.

So, does anyone know where I can get a copy of this patch?

[ChrisGwinn]

My hardy group of bickering fools has made it to the temple itself. Biggest hurdle so far has been fighting monsters that can only be hit with magic weapons. We ran into a Drelb (?) outside the temple. The paladin, the ranger, and the dwarf have spiffy masterwork weapons that look great, but do absolutely nothing against this guy. The group was reduced to running for their lives while the village drunk and the ranger's wolf killed the critter. (the wolf had magic fang cast on him)

Gotta find a shop with some affordable magic weapons or kill somebody who has one (maybe Elmo?).

Important piece of third edition trivia - you can hurt them with non-magical weapons. Those monsters have what's called damage resistance, which is a flat amount off (usually a multiple of 5) if your weapon doesn't meet the criteria. Using Power Attack or other feats/spells that boost weapon damage will let you hurt them without a magic weapon. There are also spells that will temporarily make a weapon magic.