Octopus Overlords

GreenGoo wrote:

hepcat wrote:Keepin' it classy as usual, eh?

Well to be fair, what show wouldn't be improved by a naked Salma Hayek?

One filmed in 30 years from now?

I'm still thinking it's a 50/50 chance.

These violent delights have violent ends.

Still processing things but overall I liked the season finale. Inept security was my biggest complaint with the story. I really like that Ford...
As for MiB...
As for season 2...

Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.

2. Why have Dolores-as-Wyatt kill all the hosts? Can't they just fix them? And can't they just make more? What does killing them accomplish?

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
2. Why have Dolores-as-Wyatt kill all the hosts? Can't they just fix them? And can't they just make more? What does killing them accomplish?

I think it was specifically to stop the park from being opened. i.e. they would never have enough time to fix all of the dead hosts before it was time to open. It almost worked to had not MiB stepped in and bought them out.

Toe wrote:I think it was specifically to stop the park from being opened. i.e. they would never have enough time to fix all of the dead hosts before it was time to open. It almost worked to had not MiB stepped in and bought them out.

I vaguely remember Ford saying that, but that can't be true. William's first visit to the park was after the park had already been open for some time.

Yeah, I think it was a misguided attempt to sabotage the opening of the park (delays getting the hosts repaired, bad press having one host go on a rampage, death of Arnold, etc.) but obviously they managed to open anyway. It was X years later (internet seems to think 5) that William and Logan visit and from their discussions it seems the park isn't doing well financially at the time. Ultimately it's Williams' obsession with and investment in the park that keeps it afloat.

Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, I think I overlooked the moment when Maeve and company approach that last elevator and Hector can't enter... perhaps that's the "host's can't leave the park" countermeasure? Presumably Maeve found a way around it.

I've always felt that Felix is just on the pro-Host bandwagon. He's enamored with the technology and concept that a host can become self-aware and wants to help, plus a little sympathy for the way the hosts are being treated and distaste for his asshole/creepy coworkers.

Now I'm having a hard time accepting how Ford could get away with a walking copy of Arnold all this time. Was there no one else there who would remember him?

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.

He was completely smitten with her, in more ways than one. She pretty much recruited him to her team.

RunningMn9 wrote:

Toe wrote:I think it was specifically to stop the park from being opened. i.e. they would never have enough time to fix all of the dead hosts before it was time to open. It almost worked to had not MiB stepped in and bought them out.

I vaguely remember Ford saying that, but that can't be true. William's first visit to the park was after the park had already been open for some time.

From what I understand, William's first visit to the park (the visit we get to see) took place during the prototype stages, before it opened to the public. Don't let Dolores' apparent flashbacks to the killings while she travels with him confuse you. The entire William story is a flashback, and Dolores is confused about what is taking place when. Some things that happen later appear like they've already happened because of this, but it's just a trick. The Hosts interpret memories in a different way from humans.

Daveman wrote:Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, I think I overlooked the moment when Maeve and company approach that last elevator and Hector can't enter... perhaps that's the "host's can't leave the park" countermeasure? Presumably Maeve found a way around it.

I think that was the purpose of the burning in the previous episode. By burning herself she'd require extensive reconstruction, which gave her human companion the opportunity to get rid of the bomb mechanism inside her.

The big question is: was Maeve leaving the train the first sign of free will or was that also part of her program? I initially thought the former, but then again she didn't let Bernard finish describing what she was programed to do...

TiLT wrote:

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.

He was completely smitten with her, in more ways than one. She pretty much recruited him to her team.

TiLT wrote:

Daveman wrote:Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, I think I overlooked the moment when Maeve and company approach that last elevator and Hector can't enter... perhaps that's the "host's can't leave the park" countermeasure? Presumably Maeve found a way around it.

I think that was the purpose of the burning in the previous episode. By burning herself she'd require extensive reconstruction, which gave her human companion the opportunity to get rid of the bomb mechanism inside her.

The soundtrack for Season 1 is up on iTunes/Spotify/the usual places.

What we know so far about Season 2.

Wood says in that article that Dolores pulled the trigger of her own accord. I don't believe that's true at all. Ford's speech proir to that tells us otherwise, I think.

Man, I love this show. That final 90 minutes was just insane. And it gave us a lot to chew on. Definitely a return to thoughtful sci fi.

My take on the end was that Ford was finally convinced that the Host gained sentience and he decided to "free" them. However, they are still susceptible to programing, so he programmed them to take over WW and sent Maeve away to ensure that at least 1 Host would survive if WW got nuked from orbit. I don't think he counted on Maeve coming back. Which is really the point. If they truly are finally conscious, then they are going to make their own decisions. The fallout from that is going to be S2.

Or Maeve was programmed to leave to steal the code by Delos but didn't count on sentience to kick in.

TiLT wrote:From what I understand, William's first visit to the park (the visit we get to see) took place during the prototype stages, before it opened to the public. Don't let Dolores' apparent flashbacks to the killings while she travels with him confuse you.

While I agree that they don't interpret memories the way that we do, William's first visit to the part took place after the park was open and struggling.

I guess I better get caught up. Still stuck around eps 6 or 7 I think.

RunningMn9 wrote:

TiLT wrote:From what I understand, William's first visit to the park (the visit we get to see) took place during the prototype stages, before it opened to the public. Don't let Dolores' apparent flashbacks to the killings while she travels with him confuse you.

While I agree that they don't interpret memories the way that we do, William's first visit to the part took place after the park was open and struggling.

Was William at the massacre though? If he was (honestly I can't remember), it could still be attributed to Dolores getting timelines confused.

He wasn't. The massacre occurred before William (recall that the town had been buried by the time William was there).

Maeve left her purse on the train. She was carrying it when she got on and wasn't when she got off. I think she was programmed to smuggle something out (like the host code as malchior mentions), but not herself. Other than a gun, I don't think they ever showed us what was in that bag, did they? It was a big bag.

Possibly she's not awake at all and the whole thing is just her loop.

Possibly none of us are either.

Good sci-fi

tiny ogre wrote:Maeve left her purse on the train. She was carrying it when she got on and wasn't when she got off. I think she was programmed to smuggle something out (like the host code as malchior mentions), but not herself. Other than a gun, I don't think they ever showed us what was in that bag, did they? It was a big bag.

Possibly she's not awake at all and the whole thing is just her loop.

The script Bernard found showed that Maeve was supposed to reach the mainland, but she left the train before that could happen. She appears to have gone off script.

I think they make it clear her escape attempt was a program put in by Ford, I'm assuming as a distraction while he started his new narrative/massacre. The last part of the program we see (Keep scrolling down Bernard!) was "Mainland Infiltration". We're not sure what that's supposed to be, what's next, what's in the bag, etc. so we can only speculate.

We saw in a flashback that Maeve went crazy after William killed her daughter, which seems to be one of two outcomes when a host gets near the end of the "maze". So Ford knew she was close to sentience. We now also know that Ford was creating an environment that helped get hosts to that tipping point. Maybe "Mainland Infiltration" isn't anything more than Ford trying to get Maeve to that point again... a program that's forcing her to leave her daughter behind?

The Oatmeal is a Westworld fan, it seems:

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/westworld_horses

Daveman wrote: Now I'm having a hard time accepting how Ford could get away with a walking copy of Arnold all this time. Was there no one else there who would remember him?

I'm stuck on this too. Not only is he a walking copy of Arnold, but he goes by a different name? Unless the humans knew he was Ford's helper-host all along, and only Bernard didn't know?

I'm assuming that in the early days, they had a smaller staff...and that Arnold was a bit of a recluse. My theory is that they just got rid of the handful of people that dealt with Arnold Prime in those days.

I think they mentioned multiple times that Ford and Arnold were doing a lot of this as a two man team at the beginning. Arnold died before the park opened and his contributions were wiped almost completely from the records (at some point someone says that they haven't been able to find even a picture of Arnold anywhere). Plus, the present timeline was 30+ years after Arnold died, so almost certainly no one working at the park would have met him other than Ford.

Daveman wrote:I think they make it clear her escape attempt was a program put in by Ford, I'm assuming as a distraction while he started his new narrative/massacre. The last part of the program we see (Keep scrolling down Bernard!) was "Mainland Infiltration". We're not sure what that's supposed to be, what's next, what's in the bag, etc. so we can only speculate.

I did not think it was so clear, especially considering the scene where the management girl is telling jerk-face to program a bot to smuggle the data out of the park via the train. That scene felt out of place and did not go any further other than Maeve getting on the train at the end.

Watched #7 last night. Enjoyed it.

Putting things in spoilers just because:

Have avoided this thread as I have all of season 1 on DVR. Started watching it, I think I'm 3 episodes in(?) and I really like it so far. Definitely has a lot going on under the surface and I can't wait to find some time to finish it - and then immediately read this thread!

Started watching #8 last night. The early stuff with Hopkins was decent, but I can't stand Maeve's storyline, and the absurdity of it made me turn it off 1/2 way through the episode.

The Director and writer have failed to convince me that there are suitable motives to do as she demands, which makes it an exercise in obvious self destruction for the techs. I just can't swallow it easily.

I'll try again tonight.

GreenGoo wrote:Started watching #8 last night. The early stuff with Hopkins was decent, but I can't stand Maeve's storyline, and the absurdity of it made me turn it off 1/2 way through the episode.

The Director and writer have failed to convince me that there are suitable motives to do as she demands, which makes it an exercise in obvious self destruction for the techs. I just can't swallow it easily.

I'll try again tonight.

Bear with it. In the context of the last episode, Maeve's storyline isn't quite as dubious as it may have initially appeared. After you've finished watching the conclusion, you can have a butcher's at my take on it here.

Will do, thanks.

I had expressed my growing displeasure with this plot line earlier, so when it continued down that path it grew increasingly disappointing.

Bernard is fun though. I wonder how the hiring process went.

GreenGoo wrote:

Spoiler:

The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.

Don't forget:

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:

Spoiler:

The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.

Don't forget:

Spoiler:

One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).

Right back in the pilot, the only episode I've seen...

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:

Spoiler:

The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.

Don't forget:

Spoiler:

One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).

Also,

Paingod wrote:

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:

Spoiler:

The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.

Don't forget:

Spoiler:

One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).

Right back in the pilot, the only episode I've seen...

Spoiler:

One of the tourists references the town as "Level 1" and mentions the real crazy takes place outside in the wild. They had Teddy as a guide.

That may well be, and I did note that the more interesting adventures were farther out, but at no point do I recall that things get rougher, physically. I can't recall any other physical altercations where actual strikes were inflicted. Even the town where Dolores and whatshisname abandon his soon to be brother in law, it looked a lot more like they were grappling with him than beating him. Ditto when the MiB was captured by (crap, I can't remember. Confederate soldiers? The ones that recognized the host travelling with him and captured both of them).

Obviously I read/heard things wrongly as you guys seem to be in agreement. That's fine, my opinion is not strongly held.

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.

I've been thinking about Felix. He has so little apparent motivation for helping Maeve, but so much actual ability to help her, that I believe he is the one who programmed her to do all the things she's done. Not just the things he did because she asked him to, but all the stuff Bernard found as well. The bumbling fool is just an act for her, and the other tech guy's, benefit. He is secretly behind an entire operation that doesn't have anything to do with Hopkins' plans. Or at least was hired by outside forces we haven't met yet for that purpose.

I think that even if this wasn't the writers' intention this season, they're going to do it anyway, just to make it look like they actually thought his character through all along. Because otherwise it really does make very little sense for him to have done any of the things he did.

tiny ogre wrote:

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.

I've been thinking about Felix. He has so little apparent motivation for helping Maeve, but so much actual ability to help her, that I believe he is the one who programmed her to do all the things she's done. Not just the things he did because she asked him to, but all the stuff Bernard found as well. The bumbling fool is just an act for her, and the other tech guy's, benefit. He is secretly behind an entire operation that doesn't have anything to do with Hopkins' plans. Or at least was hired by outside forces we haven't met yet for that purpose.

I think that even if this wasn't the writers' intention this season, they're going to do it anyway, just to make it look like they actually thought his character through all along. Because otherwise it really does make very little sense for him to have done any of the things he did.

Keep in mind that even if you're wrong, he was likely hand picked because he was likely to do exactly what he did. Whoever programmed Maeve wanted her to have human collaborators, so the pieces had to be carefully arranged so that the humans wouldn't end up sabotaging things. No matter what, it's very unlikely that Felix was there by accident.

Finished #8 and #9 last night, so only the finale to go.

Once Maeve is out of reach of the techs I can just accept her as a rogue host and enjoy her plot line. It's when they have her helpless on the table, shut down and they do her bidding anyway that really gets under my skin.

TinyOgre's theory helps me accept Felix's behaviour, but there has been no sign of this being true, so it doesn't stick. I mean, I can say a car accident happened because space aliens but that doesn't make it true either. A hint or a clue of his motives would have helped me accept his behaviour, instead of turning me off the show almost completely.

That said, #9 had very little felix (maybe none? I can't quite remember) so I'm back on board.

Lots of reveals in #9. I felt the show moved too quickly even in the first 3 episodes where people felt it was moving too slowly, so this end of season stuff is just a firehose of reveals and plot twists. I'd prefer it drawn out more.