(TV) Fargo

[hepcat]

I love this season, but I rank it below season 2. Maybe even season 4, depending on how it ends. That doesn’t mean it’s not fantastic. Just that this show is full of fantastic.

As for Foley, I can understand your point. But this last episode had him finally break out from under mama Lyon and gave us a glimpse of who he really is.

[Moliere]

As for Foley, I can understand your point. But this last episode had him finally break out from under mama Lyon and gave us a glimpse of who he really is.

And how did that work out for him?

Spoiler:

He lasted about 5 minutes on his own.

As for this week's episode...

Spoiler:

After escaping the shed, why is she calling her useless husband?
After turning on the gas stove, why not set some kind of fuse timer to set it off?
And worst of all, why is she hiding in the death pit, leaving herself trapped and with her gun outside the tub?
Such weird tactical decisions for someone who has proven herself resourceful.

[hepcat]

As for Foley, I can understand your point. But this last episode had him finally break out from under mama Lyon and gave us a glimpse of who he really is.

And how did that work out for him?

Spoiler:

He lasted about 5 minutes on his own.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure what your point is here. We were talking about his casting on this show, not his success as a John Wick character.

Most of what you wrote doesn't strike me as weird or wrong.

Spoiler:

After escaping the shed, why is she calling her useless husband?

Because she loves him and wanted to talk to him and her daughter if it was going to be her last days on earth. As we heard in her talk with Mama Lyon, she wasn't too optimistic about her chances. They've already established that she loves her husband and daughter fiercely, so this makes perfect sense in light of that. And don't forget, she also called Mama Lyon as well.

Spoiler:

After turning on the gas stove, why not set some kind of fuse timer to set it off?

It takes 3 seconds to turn the knobs to their highest setting. It takes a bit longer to rig a fuse. As we saw, she was surrounded and time was NOT on her side.

Spoiler:

And worst of all, why is she hiding in the death pit, leaving herself trapped and with her gun outside the tub?

She hid in the tub because she figured that was the last place they would look. She even stated that out loud. I will agree that leaving the gun outside the death tub was stupid...but she made a mistake. I'm always surprised that people expect everyone on tv to act without mistakes in every situation. Again, she was surrounded on all sides by people who wanted to kill her. I'll cut her some slack for forgetting her gun outside the death tub.

[Moliere]

As for Foley, I can understand your point. But this last episode had him finally break out from under mama Lyon and gave us a glimpse of who he really is.

And how did that work out for him?

Spoiler:

He lasted about 5 minutes on his own.

I'm not sure what your point is here. We were talking about his casting on this show, not his success as a John Wick character.

I was responding to your phrase "finally break out from under mama Lyon and gave us a glimpse of who he really is" and what he is without mama Lyon is a dead guy with an eye patch. You're right, he's no John Wick.

Spoiler:

And worst of all, why is she hiding in the death pit, leaving herself trapped and with her gun outside the tub?

She hid in the tub because she figured that was the last place they would look. She even stated that out loud. I will agree that leaving the gun outside the death tub was stupid...but she made a mistake. I'm always surprised that people expect everyone on tv to act without mistakes in every situation. Again, she was surrounded on all sides by people who wanted to kill her. I'll cut her some slack for forgetting her gun outside the death tub.

Yes, I know she said to go somewhere they wouldn't look, but that doesn't change the fact that she chose an indefensible position with no retreat option. Obviously the tunnel choice is foreshadowed for next week's episode.

BTW, sucks for Gator.

[hepcat]

At first I didn't like Ole Munch. He struck me as too similar to Peter Stormare's character in the movie initially. Then I thought he was being made out to be way too powerful and borderline supernatural. But I've grown to really like his character, and especially the actor's performance in that role. His...economy...in playing that character is just perfection itself. There's a preternatural stillness to his performance that is really off putting and disturbing. I would love to see that actor in some other things in the future. Honestly, a series about Ole Munch's life (or lives) would be welcomed. I could listen to his third person, sentence long statements for 60 minutes each week. "A rabbit screams because it is caught".

Spoiler:

What he did to Gator is perfectly in line with his almost biblical characterization. The real tragedy was his father just walking away from him in his hour of need. True, Gator brought it all on himself. But in the end, he's just his father's son. By the way, there's a throwaway scene that further proves just how despicable and self centered Roy is right around the same time. Roy is searching his home for Dot, rifle up, when he sees his wife lying on the floor....and he just casually moves on without checking on her.

And I loved Mama Lyon calling Dot her "daughter". That was a beautiful moment where two characters realize they're more alike than they could ever admit earlier...but come together when they do accept it. I'm looking forward to Mama Lyon unleashing hell on Tillman and his bunch. I suspect she's only just begun.

The only thing I have trouble with this season is the heavy handed nature of the politics. Tillman and his group are MAGA, we get it. But that's an easy route for the writers. I expected a bit more subtlety in their motives and outlook, at least from a story point.

[Moliere]

At first I didn't like Ole Munch. He struck me as too similar to Peter Stormare's character in the movie initially. Then I thought he was being made out to be way too powerful and borderline supernatural. But I've grown to really like his character, and especially the actor's performance in that role. His...economy...in playing that character is just perfection itself. There's a preternatural stillness to his performance that is really off putting and disturbing. I would love to see that actor in some other things in the future. Honestly, a series about Ole Munch's life (or lives) would be welcomed. I could listen to his third person, sentence long statements for 60 minutes each week. "A rabbit screams because it is caught".

Spoiler:

What he did to Gator is perfectly in line with his almost biblical characterization. The real tragedy was his father just walking away from him in his hour of need. True, Gator brought it all on himself. But in the end, he's just his father's son. By the way, there's a throwaway scene that further proves just how despicable and self centered Roy is right around the same time. Roy is searching his home for Dot, rifle up, when he sees his wife lying on the floor....and he just casually moves on without checking on her.

And I loved Mama Lyon calling Dot her "daughter". That was a beautiful moment where two characters realize they're more alike than they could ever admit earlier...but come together when they do accept it. I'm looking forward to Mama Lyon unleashing hell on Tillman and his bunch. I suspect she's only just begun.

The only thing I have trouble with this season is the heavy handed nature of the politics. Tillman and his group are MAGA, we get it. But that's an easy route for the writers. I expected a bit more subtlety in their motives and outlook, at least from a story point.

I agree with all of this.

Spoiler:

The "orange idiot" was another overly obvious political statement.

[hepcat]

The audience for Fargo is probably overwhelmingly left of the dial, so it just feels like pandering. I like it when Hawley challenges his audience, not when he spoon feeds them easily written platitudes.

Of course, my distaste for it might also be because I've been living in that reality for the last few years and can't escape it.

[Moliere]

Season finale! Mama Lyon certainly finished in character. Also, interesting how the running theme is the power of debt.

Hepcat might get his Ole Munch spinoff series based upon the last 20 minutes of the episode.

[hepcat]

Going to watch tonight! I look forward to seeing how it all wraps up.

[Carpet_pissr]

Season finale!

Oh no. I hate to read that. I REALLY looked forward to Wednesday's just based on this show's new ep.

That it's already ending makes me very sad, but hopeful for more seasons in the future. I hope it did well, wrt eyeballs, but that is not so much the determining factor these days as it used to be.

[hepcat]

Sadly, it's normally a matter of 2 to 3 years between seasons..if it continues, that is.

However, we do have Hawley's Alien show coming up next year (I believe)!

[Kraken]

Season finale!

Oh no. I hate to read that. I REALLY looked forward to Wednesday's just based on this show's new ep.

That it's already ending makes me very sad, but hopeful for more seasons in the future. I hope it did well, wrt eyeballs, but that is not so much the determining factor these days as it used to be.

Just watched the penultimate episode an hour ago. Looking forward to polishing it off tomorrow night. This season was pretty great, but not as great as the one with Kirsten Dunst and Jesse Plemons IMO. Maybe the finale will change my mind.

[hepcat]

Season 2 of Fargo is also my favorite still. It just hit on so many levels.

This latest was fantastic, but I would still rate it behind season 2 and maybe season 4.

Watched the finale yesterday and loved it.

Spoiler:

Even if it did have a Return of the King style ending...which means it had like nine endings.

This entire season has been about debt. Mama Lyon is a debt collector, Ole Munch is obsessed with debts, Roy Tillman feels that Nadine owes him a debt for leaving him, and Indira is in debt because of someone else. The only person who really doesn't have any debts is Nadine/Dot. She gives a great little speech near the end of the finale about debt and forgiveness that sums up the whole point of the season, I think.

As for what happened to who...

Mama Lyon SHOULD be a villain considering her source of wealth. But she's demonstrated time and again that she's not evil, she just thinks she has to play the part to succeed in a perceived "man's world". Every man she deals with underestimates her because of her sex...and pays for that in short order. At the beginning of the story, I think she's placed her humanity to the side. By the end, Dot and Indira have helped her find it again. Although it doesn't apply to those who cross her, obviously. The look of pure fear on Roy's face after Mama Lyon leaves the prison meeting with him is fantastic. And another reason Hamm deserves an Emmy for his performance.

I'm pissed that Witt died. He was one of the very few innocent and pure characters on the show. But I am glad they gave him the proper respect his heroics deserved. Dot's voice breaking after she hears he's been killed is heart rending.

Dot starts the story as a survivor and ends the story as a survivor. But she's never been a victim in the true sense of the word. She's fought every step of the way for her freedom. She's finally free though in the physical sense now that Roy is being assaulted daily with vaseline and vienna sausage in prison (yeah...that was not a subtle line from Mama Lyon).

More important for Dot is her helping Ole Munch (Oola Moonk) break his curse. I was VERY surprised that they did end up outright stating that Oola was a 500 year old immortal...at least in his own words. But I tend to take him at his word due to the flashback scene in the middle of the season. Dot showing him how to break his curse and the resulting smile full of stained, broken teeth was just the perfect end to this story about debt and what it does to us.

By the way, how friggin' good was Joe Keery as Gator? He's definitely a better actor than I gave him credit for after his time on Stranger Things.

The few things I didn't like about this season:

1) The aforementioned political stuff. It was just too easy and a low hanging fruit for a writer I expect more from.
2) Wayne's recovery from brain damage seemed contrived. One minute he's severely brain damaged, a few weeks later he's fine. I'm not sure they even needed that to happen to him.
3) That Danish Graves' sacrifice didn't merit any mention in the final episode. You'd think Mama Lyon would have added cucumbers to the vienna sausage order in that final scene with Roy for killing her bestie.
4) That it didn't end with Oola getting his own show immediately. I envision a sitcom since he now can laugh again.

[Carpet_pissr]

It may be the recency effect, but this might have been my favorite season of all after watching that final ep, with my mouth almost literally hanging open at the end.

If you had told me how it would end while I was watching mid-season

Spoiler:

(specifically the Ole/Dot ending)

, I probably would have been incredulous, and pissed at the silly ass premise. The fact that the Coens could pull that shit off amazes me, though I guess I shouldn't be...they've done it many times before.

But to pull off what has to look absurd on paper, in that way, and to generate those crazy and mixed emotions...wow. I mean, that is at the heart of the art of this medium as far as I'm concerned. To be able to completely wow an especially cynical viewer...incredible.

I've tried to get my wife to watch these, and I told her to just start with Season 1, but she bounced off it for some reason (I personally thought it was great!). It sounds like you guys would mostly vote for Season 2 as the best? Maybe I'll try to get her hooked on the series with that one instead.

I'm going to have to let that episode sit with me for a few days as I ponder its greatness, and hierarchy within all the seasons to date.

One question though:

Spoiler:

Did I understand correctly that Roy sent Ole to kill Dot in the end? WTF. Weird that Ole would do that considering everything that had already happened at that point - between Ole and Dot, between Roy (and son) and Ole, etc. That was the only thing that didn't really make sense to me.

Re: Joe Keery, until you just mentioned it, I have been thinking it was Ralph from Parks and Rec this whole time! (link below is safe, click it for your mind to be blown. )

https://www.instagram.com/p/BKl3QMIBNSy ... atch_again

[hepcat]

The fact that the Coens could pull that shit off amazes me, though I guess I shouldn't be...they've done it many times before.

The only thing the Coen's provided for any of the Fargo seasons is the name. It's all Noah Hawley.

One question though:

Spoiler:

Did I understand correctly that Roy sent Ole to kill Dot in the end? WTF. Weird that Ole would do that considering everything that had already happened at that point - between Ole and Dot, between Roy (and son) and Ole, etc. That was the only thing that didn't really make sense to me.

Spoiler:

No, Munch went on his own accord as he felt Dot owed him a debt for his dead partner and the loss of part of his ear. Roy had nothing to do with his visit at the end. Munch freed Dot in the prior episode so that she would survive long enough for him to collect that debt from her. But Dot turned the tables in the end by showing him kindness and by helping him break his curse. In some ways, I feel like this was just as much Munch's story as it was Dot's.

[Carpet_pissr]

The fact that the Coens could pull that shit off amazes me, though I guess I shouldn't be...they've done it many times before.

The only thing the Coen's provided for any of the Fargo seasons is the name. It's all Noah Hawley.

One question though:

Spoiler:

Did I understand correctly that Roy sent Ole to kill Dot in the end? WTF. Weird that Ole would do that considering everything that had already happened at that point - between Ole and Dot, between Roy (and son) and Ole, etc. That was the only thing that didn't really make sense to me.

Spoiler:

No, Munch went on his own accord as he felt Dot owed him a debt for his dead partner and the loss of part of his ear. Roy had nothing to do with his visit at the end.

Spoiler:

But she specifically asked him if Roy sent him, didn't she? Don't remember how (or if) Ole answered. Probably in Beowulf like prose.

[hepcat]

Spoiler:

She was just confused as to why Munch was there after so long. Her natural assumption is that Roy hired him, not being fully aware of all that transpired between Munch and the Tillmans. But Munch then launches into one of his trademark stoic, third person speeches about the debt she owes him for his dead partner and his lost ear, finishing with the assertion that she owes him a "pound of flesh".

Dot realizes soon enough that Munch is just as much a victim of other's debts (as well those he believes others owe him) as she is though after she hears about how Munch found himself collecting the debts (in this case, sin) of others so long ago, and how that debt has cursed him for 500 years. Which then leads to Dot freeing him of those debts by helping him realize that he doesn't need to carry them. That he was the one who was keeping those debts alive all these years. In that moment, Munch is unburdened and finally free.

By the way, one of my favorite lines from the season was Wayne asking a 500 year old immortal the question: "Ever drive a Kia, Mr. Munch?".

[Exodor]

I loved that finale so much particularly the conclusion to Moonch's story

https://i.imgur.com/2ZtRSkl.mp4

The bottle tap.

[hepcat]

The way the bottle slides in from the side of the screen and then Munch just glancing at it in a clueless manner is comedy...freakin'....gold.

[Kraken]

I liked the finale better than I expected to.

Spoiler:

I was afraid they were setting us up for an hour of gun porn, al la The Walking Dead. Really glad it didn't go that way. The amount of violence felt appropriate.

I noticed how Bisquick kept appearing in the first episode or two, and loved that the final episode, entitled "Bisquick," ends with Moonch biting into the biscuit. As an English major I used to put a lot of thought into unpacking that kind of symbolism; as an old man, I mostly just take note and enjoy it at face value. One could write a term paper about the role of Bisquick in Fargo and earn a solid B.

Spoiler:

2) Wayne's recovery from brain damage seemed contrived. One minute he's severely brain damaged, a few weeks later he's fine. I'm not sure they even needed that to happen to him.

Is he, though? He's such a simpleton that it's hard to tell. Maybe that was the point.

Your observation about debt is spot-on, and had mostly escaped me. I feel like I should surrender my English degree.

Also, I had decided a couple of episodes earlier that Dottie's lengthy interlude on the battered women's retreat was a dream or hallucination and was glad to see that confirmed.

All Fargo seasons and movies ranked by tomatometer

This ranking doesn't include S5, but according to Rotten Tomatoes it goes (from lowest to highest:) S4, S3, movie, S1, S2. In fact, S2 scored 100%. A couple of other website ratings that I looked at put S5 right in the middle; I concur. It was good Fargo but not the best Fargo.

Really hope that they keep making new seasons without too much time elapsing between them.

[Exodor]

Really hope that they keep making new seasons without too much time elapsing between them.

It's probably going to be awhile - Fargo is a Noah Hawley gig and he's got another project occupying his time.

[Kraken]

Really hope that they keep making new seasons without too much time elapsing between them.

It's probably going to be awhile - Fargo is a Noah Hawley gig and he's got another project occupying his time.

Ooooo, that could be even better than Fargo. Never mind.

[hepcat]

This ranking doesn't include S5, but according to Rotten Tomatoes it goes (from lowest to highest:) S4, S3, movie, S1, S2. In fact, S2 scored 100%. A couple of other website ratings that I looked at put S5 right in the middle; I concur. It was good Fargo but not the best Fargo.

Really hope that they keep making new seasons without too much time elapsing between them.

I know season 4 is often considered the weakest, but that season also had the episode East/West which I consider one of the finest hours of television ever filmed.

But at the end of the day, the weakest season of Fargo is still better then the strongest of almost any show.

[Carpet_pissr]

I liked the finale better than I expected to.

Spoiler:

I was afraid they were setting us up for an hour of gun porn, al la The Walking Dead. Really glad it didn't go that way. The amount of violence felt appropriate.

I noticed how Bisquick kept appearing in the first episode or two, and loved that the final episode, entitled "Bisquick," ends with Moonch biting into the biscuit. As an English major I used to put a lot of thought into unpacking that kind of symbolism; as an old man, I mostly just take note and enjoy it at face value. One could write a term paper about the role of Bisquick in Fargo and earn a solid B.

Spoiler:

2) Wayne's recovery from brain damage seemed contrived. One minute he's severely brain damaged, a few weeks later he's fine. I'm not sure they even needed that to happen to him.

Is he, though? He's such a simpleton that it's hard to tell. Maybe that was the point.

Your observation about debt is spot-on, and had mostly escaped me. I feel like I should surrender my English degree.

Also, I had decided a couple of episodes earlier that Dottie's lengthy interlude on the battered women's retreat was a dream or hallucination and was glad to see that confirmed.

All Fargo seasons and movies ranked by tomatometer

This ranking doesn't include S5, but according to Rotten Tomatoes it goes (from lowest to highest:) S4, S3, movie, S1, S2. In fact, S2 scored 100%. A couple of other website ratings that I looked at put S5 right in the middle; I concur. It was good Fargo but not the best Fargo.

Really hope that they keep making new seasons without too much time elapsing between them.

Wow, that's interesting. I personally would have the movie at the bottom (as in, I prefer every TV season to the movie). Thought the movie was great, but it's hard to top an entire season of development with just 2 hours or whatever it was.

And yeah, the soda pop scene was one of my jaw drop moments. After picking jaw up, I literally LOL'd obnoxiously, according to two family members I awoke.

[hepcat]

I think the movie is a masterpiece, so I probably would have placed it a bit higher. But then again, I'm a complete Coen brothers fanboy, so I'm biased.

[Carpet_pissr]

I think the movie is a masterpiece, so I probably would have placed it a bit higher. But then again, I'm a complete Coen brothers fanboy, so I'm biased.

We need a thread for people’s top ten Coen Bros movies. I would be surprised if I haven’t seen them all.

[Kraken]

I think the movie is a masterpiece, so I probably would have placed it a bit higher. But then again, I'm a complete Coen brothers fanboy, so I'm biased.

We need a thread for people’s top ten Coen Bros movies. I would be surprised if I haven’t seen them all.

The Man Who Wasn't There is near the top of my list. I'd have to see it again before giving it #1. But as they've "only" made 19 movies, picking a top 10 is easy.

[hepcat]

I checked the rankings on Rottentomatoes and I was surprised to see True Grit at the top of the list for Coen films. But then I thought about it a bit more. It really IS a very good film. Blood Simple is number 2, and I expected THAT to be number 1.

The other surprise was Miller's Crossing at 7. I would definitely have thought that would be higher up.

Reviewing the list DID remind me I've yet to see their version of Macbeth. That's something I need to rectify soon.