Those Lightbulbs again

[Bad Demographic]

Less then that. As I said I just dont believe that switching to cfls is going to give a 40% reduction in energy costs. The savings are being inflated somewhere, for what reasons I dont know, but they are.

Do you know what a watt is?

Guess not, I must be a complete idiot who doesnt know something that is taught in elementary science classes.

What a silly question.

Well, if a incandecent uses 60 of them to produce x lumens, and a CFL uses 14 of them to produce x lumens, then a CFL will use 25% of the electricity of a incandecent. Therefore to get a 40% reduction in household electricity costs, it simply requires that 54% of your electricity is used by lighting.

Is it your contention that that is impossible?

Yes. As 54% of a normal houses energy cost is not lighting.

Are you talking here of TOTAL energy cost? That is, you're including the cost of gas? So far as I know, total energy costs in Minnesota typically includes electricity and gas. Aren't people here talking specifically electricity bills?

[brettmcd]

Less then that. As I said I just dont believe that switching to cfls is going to give a 40% reduction in energy costs. The savings are being inflated somewhere, for what reasons I dont know, but they are.

Do you know what a watt is?

Guess not, I must be a complete idiot who doesnt know something that is taught in elementary science classes.

What a silly question.

Well, if a incandecent uses 60 of them to produce x lumens, and a CFL uses 14 of them to produce x lumens, then a CFL will use 25% of the electricity of a incandecent. Therefore to get a 40% reduction in household electricity costs, it simply requires that 54% of your electricity is used by lighting.

Is it your contention that that is impossible?

Yes. As 54% of a normal houses energy cost is not lighting.

Are you talking here of TOTAL energy cost? That is, you're including the cost of gas? So far as I know, total energy costs in Minnesota typically includes electricity and gas. Aren't people here talking specifically electricity bills?

I meant electrical costs.

[noxiousdog]

Yes. As 54% of a normal houses energy cost is not lighting.

Cite?

And since you repeatedly ignore requests for data, it looks to me that in the absence of heating/cooling by electricity, it's quite easy to get 52% of your usage by lighting.

[Hiccup]

Less then that. As I said I just dont believe that switching to cfls is going to give a 40% reduction in energy costs. The savings are being inflated somewhere, for what reasons I dont know, but they are.

Against this there is no argument I could make prove otherwise. Not because I can't back up my stance with facts, but because you hold the belief that something can not be true just because you think it can't.

The savings from converting Incandescent bulbs to CFL's are substantial. And yes, energy consumption by light bulbs is just a part of you electric bill, but it is suprising exactly how much of the kWh you use per month is from lights, especially during the winter months in Minnesota.

[brettmcd]

Less then that. As I said I just dont believe that switching to cfls is going to give a 40% reduction in energy costs. The savings are being inflated somewhere, for what reasons I dont know, but they are.

Against this there is no argument I could make prove otherwise. Not because I can't back up my stance with facts, but because you hold the belief that something can not be true just because you think it can't.

The savings from converting Incandescent bulbs to CFL's are substantial. And yes, energy consumption by light bulbs is just a part of you electric bill, but it is suprising exactly how much of the kWh you use per month is from lights, especially during the winter months in Minnesota.

Im not saying there isnt some small savings somewhere from cfls, im just stating that 200+ dollars per year is impossible.

[ChrisGwinn]

Less then that. As I said I just dont believe that switching to cfls is going to give a 40% reduction in energy costs. The savings are being inflated somewhere, for what reasons I dont know, but they are.

Against this there is no argument I could make prove otherwise. Not because I can't back up my stance with facts, but because you hold the belief that something can not be true just because you think it can't.

The savings from converting Incandescent bulbs to CFL's are substantial. And yes, energy consumption by light bulbs is just a part of you electric bill, but it is suprising exactly how much of the kWh you use per month is from lights, especially during the winter months in Minnesota.

Im not saying there isnt some small savings somewhere from cfls, im just stating that 200+ dollars per year is impossible.

It may not be possible for you - although that hasn't even been shown to be true here. It's certainly possible for other people. Barring your showing some flaw in other people's math, merely asserting it isn't true doesn't make that wrong.

[Hiccup]

Im not saying there isnt some small savings somewhere from cfls, im just stating that 200+ dollars per year is impossible.

Yes, it would be improbably to save $200 per year at the $55 a month range. But, could we at least agree that $55 per month (which roughly equals mine) on electric bills is below average? If at least agree on that, we can assume that the average monthly electric bill would be closer to $75-100 per month possibly?
Then someone paying $1200 per year on electricity could potentially save at a minimum 16% from changing their light bulbs to CFL.

[brettmcd]

Less then that. As I said I just dont believe that switching to cfls is going to give a 40% reduction in energy costs. The savings are being inflated somewhere, for what reasons I dont know, but they are.

Against this there is no argument I could make prove otherwise. Not because I can't back up my stance with facts, but because you hold the belief that something can not be true just because you think it can't.

The savings from converting Incandescent bulbs to CFL's are substantial. And yes, energy consumption by light bulbs is just a part of you electric bill, but it is suprising exactly how much of the kWh you use per month is from lights, especially during the winter months in Minnesota.

Im not saying there isnt some small savings somewhere from cfls, im just stating that 200+ dollars per year is impossible.

It may not be possible for you - although that hasn't even been shown to be true here.

Yes it is impossible for me, changing 13 lightbulbs, half of which are hardly ever used, and one which is already a cfl is NOT going to save 200+ per year. So yes it is impossible. You can keep claiming it is possible, but its just not true. So as long as you want to claim that, all of your other claims of magically high savinga are extremely suspect.

[Poleaxe]

Then someone paying $1200 per year on electricity could potentially save at a minimum 16% from changing their light bulbs to CFL.

$1200? Man, I don't think I want to hear from you Mn people about this anymore. It's making me sick. How much is the winter gas bill?

[brettmcd]

Then someone paying $1200 per year on electricity could potentially save at a minimum 16% from changing their light bulbs to CFL.

$1200? Man, I don't think I want to hear from you Mn people about this anymore. It's making me sick. How much is the winter gas bill?

Normally 100-200 per month depending on a lot of different factors.

[brettmcd]

Yes it is impossible for me, changing 13 lightbulbs, half of which are hardly ever used, and one which is already a cfl is NOT going to save 200+ per year. So yes it is impossible. You can keep claiming it is possible, but its just not true. So as long as you want to claim that, all of your other claims of magically high savinga are extremely suspect.

At this point in the Brett saga, all you can do is laugh.

If he can somehow explain how changing 12 lightbulbs will be 200+ a year in savings he can go ahead, but not a damn thing so far has shown that.

[Poleaxe]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

TV, stereo, and computer don't cost much of anything. Your refridgerator and freezer probably represent $13 bucks a month. What exactly do you think is racking up the KWH if not your lights?

[ChrisGwinn]

Then someone paying $1200 per year on electricity could potentially save at a minimum 16% from changing their light bulbs to CFL.

$1200? Man, I don't think I want to hear from you Mn people about this anymore. It's making me sick. How much is the winter gas bill?

Staggeringly high.

[LawBeefaroni]

Im not saying there isnt some small savings somewhere from cfls, im just stating that 200+ dollars per year is impossible.

It may not be possible for you - although that hasn't even been shown to be true here.

Yes it is impossible for me, changing 13 lightbulbs, half of which are hardly ever used, and one which is already a cfl is NOT going to save 200+ per year. So yes it is impossible. You can keep claiming it is possible, but its just not true. So as long as you want to claim that, all of your other claims of magically high savinga are extremely suspect.

"Impossible for brettmcd" is not the same as "impossible."

If we can't agree on this, there is no point in further discussion.


A quick mental inventory of my place yields about 52 bulbs inside. Add about 10 per stairwell and 10 on the decks. 72 bulbs. If I were to save $200/year (let's pretend) on roughly the same usage, it would be like you saving $36.50 per year before replacement costs. Just counting my indoor bulbs it would be like you saving $50 per year. Is that also impossible for brettmcd?

This is where percentages come in handy.

[gbasden]

$55-60 per month.

In my entire adult life, I've never had an electric bill that low.

I rent a house, and our electrical bill is rarely over $60. The last 3 months it's been in the low 50's. So, it is possible, and realistic.

I leave my computer on all day, we fans that are on most of the day, and we use the heater/airconditioner at least 6 hours a day, more on the weekends.

Where do you live?

I live in Sacramento CA. Normally weather isn't too cold during the winter, but we had a pretty cold winter (colder than normal) where day temps were in the 30's. The last month the weather has been in the high 80's low 90's. So we have been using our appliances more than I normally would.

Wow. You must have a lot of mature trees around you. We've got a very well insulated house in Sacramento and follow the same rough protocols as you (computer on most of the time, use AC when it gets hot and open the windows in the evening, etc.). Our average summer bills is $150-200, and winter is still in the $75-100 range.

[Hiccup]

First of all, sorry for brining up the general $200 per year savings when installing CFL's along with Efficient Heating and Efficient A/C.

Let's go back to my original statement shall we, which I already quoted

Combine CFL's with high efficentcy heating and cooling however and you are looking at $200+ savings per year on your electric bill

The reason I can't show how changing 12 lightbulbs will save $200 per year is that not my god damn statement to begin with. I'm not going to follow you down this tangent. When you get back to the point, I'll be waiting, but not holding my breath.

[brettmcd]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

Gee yes I can do simple math, although I know you refuse to believe that.

Again a completely silly question.

[Poleaxe]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

Gee yes I can do simple math, although I know you refuse to believe that.

Again a completely silly question.

How much do you think you would save monthly on your electric bill by switching CFLs?

Show your work please.

[Yankeeman84]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

TV, stereo, and computer don't cost much of anything. Your refridgerator and freezer probably represent $13 bucks a month. What exactly do you think is racking up the KWH if not your lights?

Normally it would be heating/air conditioning (HVAC), electric water heater for a decent sized family, and appliances / electronics (stove, oven, fridge, microwave, television, etc..)

In certain parts of the country (like mine), changing lightbulbs to CFL's will not save you $16.00 a month or anywhere near that unless you use lighting alot or have a large home with alot of lights. When you look at an electric bill where I live, most of the cost of a high bill complaint is the fact that the home is not energy efficient (very large, singlepane windows, lack of insulation, or an improperly installed HVAC unit.)

In the end, having proper insulation, good weatherization of the home (a good termapane window, insulated garage door, and having damaged seals caulked), and an energy efficient heating and air conditioning unit will save you much more money than switching light bulbs.

Remember, electric rates vary in different regions in the country so savings will vary too. The Northeast, North, and far West (California) have very high electric rates compared to Southwest Virginia and Eastern Tennessee.

[brettmcd]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

Gee yes I can do simple math, although I know you refuse to believe that.

Again a completely silly question.

How much do you think you would save monthly on your electric bill by switching CFLs?

Show your work please.

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

[Poleaxe]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

TV, stereo, and computer don't cost much of anything. Your refridgerator and freezer probably represent $13 bucks a month. What exactly do you think is racking up the KWH if not your lights?

Normally it would be heating/air conditioning (HVAC), electric water heater for a decent sized family, and appliances / electronics (stove, oven, fridge, microwave, television, etc..)

In certain parts of the country (like mine), changing lightbulbs to CFL's will not save you $16.00 a month or anywhere near that unless you use lighting alot or have a large home with alot of lights. When you look at an electric bill where I live, most of the cost of a high bill complaint is the fact that the home is not energy efficient (very large, singlepane windows, lack of insulation, or an improperly installed HVAC unit.)

In the end, having proper insulation, good weatherization of the home (a good termapane window, insulated garage door, and having damaged seals caulked), and an energy efficient heating and air conditioning unit will save you much more money than switching light bulbs.

Remember, electric rates vary in different regions in the country so savings will vary too. The Northeast, North, and far West (California) have very high electric rates compared to Southwest Virginia and Eastern Tennessee.

Did you read the thread?

[Hiccup]

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

I could have sworn you actually wanted to learn. After reading this statement I know you were just here for an argument.

This is beyond asanine and the only reason I'm even responding is that I am completely dumbfounded. Completely.

You demand proof, to which you dismiss, stating you don't know why, but you are damn sure it's wrong. Then in the end blow off any thing I tried to do to show you that YES they save money with, "No matter what you say, I still won't do it." because you hate the light they give off. State that you hate them first then we can dismiss your view right away next time.

[Yankeeman84]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

TV, stereo, and computer don't cost much of anything. Your refridgerator and freezer probably represent $13 bucks a month. What exactly do you think is racking up the KWH if not your lights?

Normally it would be heating/air conditioning (HVAC), electric water heater for a decent sized family, and appliances / electronics (stove, oven, fridge, microwave, television, etc..)

In certain parts of the country (like mine), changing lightbulbs to CFL's will not save you $16.00 a month or anywhere near that unless you use lighting alot or have a large home with alot of lights. When you look at an electric bill where I live, most of the cost of a high bill complaint is the fact that the home is not energy efficient (very large, singlepane windows, lack of insulation, or an improperly installed HVAC unit.)

In the end, having proper insulation, good weatherization of the home (a good termapane window, insulated garage door, and having damaged seals caulked), and an energy efficient heating and air conditioning unit will save you much more money than switching light bulbs.

Remember, electric rates vary in different regions in the country so savings will vary too. The Northeast, North, and far West (California) have very high electric rates compared to Southwest Virginia and Eastern Tennessee.

Did you read the thread?

No. I was responding to your question about what else racks up kWh in your house. I also threw in a bit of bonus material that my dad sent me and I picked up from work (at the city electric company). Maybe others will read this and use this information to help cut costs in their own home. It will benefit them much more than changing lightbulbs.

[Poleaxe]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

Gee yes I can do simple math, although I know you refuse to believe that.

Again a completely silly question.

How much do you think you would save monthly on your electric bill by switching CFLs?

Show your work please.

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

You can't figure it out? It's simple math.

Look, I'll give you an example:

I have 35 light bulbs (interior)

Avg use per day
6- 1 hour
12- 2 hour
12- 6 hour
5- 8 hour

142(hours use per day) x 30 (days)= 4260 hours used per month

60 watt bulbs= .06KWH 4260 x .06= 255.60 (KWH used per month)
13 watt CFLs= .013KWH 4260 x .013= 55.38 (KWH used per month)

My electricity costs $.11/KWH.

255.6 x .11= $28.12
55.38 x .11= $6.09

$22.03 (monthly savings)
$264.36 (yearly savings)

[Poleaxe]

No. I was responding to your question about what else racks up kWh in your house. I also threw in a bit of bonus material that my dad sent me and I picked up from work (at the city electric company). Maybe others will read this and use this information to help cut costs in their own home. It will benefit them much more than changing lightbulbs.

Well that's a nice public service announcement then. But he says he doesn't use his AC because he lives in Mn and his heating is gas.

[Yankeeman84]

You realize that $200/year is like $16 a month, right?

Gee yes I can do simple math, although I know you refuse to believe that.

Again a completely silly question.

How much do you think you would save monthly on your electric bill by switching CFLs?

Show your work please.

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

You can't figure it out? It's simple math.

Look, I'll give you an example:

I have 35 light bulbs (interior)

Avg use per day
6- 1 hour
12- 2 hour
12- 6 hour
5- 8 hour

142(hours use per day) x 30 (days)= 4260 hours used per month

60 watt bulbs= .06KWH 4260 x .06= 255.60 (KWH used per month)
13 watt CFLs= .013KWH 4260 x .013= 55.38 (KWH used per month)

My electricity costs $.11/KWH.

255.6 x .11= $28.12
55.38 x .11= $6.09

$22.03 (monthly savings)
$264.36 (yearly savings)

Did you factor in how much more the CFL bulb costs over a standard incandescent?

[Al]

Another year, another six page debate with an imaginary person.

[Poleaxe]

Did you factor in how much more the CFL bulb costs over a standard incandescent?

Read the thread.

[Yankeeman84]

No. I was responding to your question about what else racks up kWh in your house. I also threw in a bit of bonus material that my dad sent me and I picked up from work (at the city electric company). Maybe others will read this and use this information to help cut costs in their own home. It will benefit them much more than changing lightbulbs.

Well that's a nice public service announcement then. But he says he doesn't use his AC because he lives in Mn and his heating is gas.

I was just trying to help out.

Using gas to heat in Minnesota is smart. Electric heat pumps and electric rates are very high there.

[Zaxxon]

Did you factor in how much more the CFL bulb costs over a standard incandescent?

Read the thread.

Just in case he doesn't want to read through: the initial cost premium is washed out by the extended life of CFLs.

[brettmcd]

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

I could have sworn you actually wanted to learn. After reading this statement I know you were just here for an argument.

This is beyond asanine and the only reason I'm even responding is that I am completely dumbfounded. Completely.

You demand proof, to which you dismiss, stating you don't know why, but you are damn sure it's wrong. Then in the end blow off any thing I tried to do to show you that YES they save money with, "No matter what you say, I still won't do it." because you hate the light they give off. State that you hate them first then we can dismiss your view right away next time.

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway, which was shown clearly here yet again.

My point was that someone came up with the compltely insane figure that changing a few lightbulbs would save people 200+ dollars a year in electric costs, and that figure is insanely high for an average person. 50-75 I could agree with, but thats not the figure that was given at the beginning.

[brettmcd]

Another year, another six page debate with an imaginary person.

Another day, another troll pops in just to cause trouble. Good job there Al.

[Poleaxe]

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway, which was shown clearly here yet again.

My point was that someone came up with the compltely insane figure that changing a few lightbulbs would save people 200+ dollars a year in electric costs, and that figure is insanely high for an average person. 50-75 I could agree with, but thats not the figure that was given at the beginning.

I'm an average person and I just showed how I could save $200+.

[LawBeefaroni]

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

I could have sworn you actually wanted to learn. After reading this statement I know you were just here for an argument.

This is beyond asanine and the only reason I'm even responding is that I am completely dumbfounded. Completely.

You demand proof, to which you dismiss, stating you don't know why, but you are damn sure it's wrong. Then in the end blow off any thing I tried to do to show you that YES they save money with, "No matter what you say, I still won't do it." because you hate the light they give off. State that you hate them first then we can dismiss your view right away next time.

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway, which was shown clearly here yet again.

My point was that someone came up with the compltely insane figure that changing a few lightbulbs would save people 200+ dollars a year in electric costs, and that figure is insanely high for an average person. 50-75 I could agree with, but thats not the figure that was given at the beginning.

Once, your point was that one couldn't save 40% in energy costs. Then it was that saving $200 was impossible. Then it was that it was impossible for you. Then it was that any savings didn't matter because CFLs give off ugly light. Now it's that $200+ is an insanely high figure for the "average" person who changes a "few" bulbs.

You're all over the place here.

[Hiccup]

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

I could have sworn you actually wanted to learn. After reading this statement I know you were just here for an argument.

This is beyond asanine and the only reason I'm even responding is that I am completely dumbfounded. Completely.

You demand proof, to which you dismiss, stating you don't know why, but you are damn sure it's wrong. Then in the end blow off any thing I tried to do to show you that YES they save money with, "No matter what you say, I still won't do it." because you hate the light they give off. State that you hate them first then we can dismiss your view right away next time.

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway, which was shown clearly here yet again.

My point was that someone came up with the compltely insane figure that changing a few lightbulbs would save people 200+ dollars a year in electric costs, and that figure is insanely high for an average person. 50-75 I could agree with, but thats not the figure that was given at the beginning.

I'm dismissing it because you are completely glazing over the intent of my original comment, then used it out of context, and still haven't acknowledged it. Once again:

Combine CFL's with high efficentcy heating and cooling however and you are looking at $200+ savings per year on your electric bill

[The Meal]

I'm an average person and I just showed how I could save $200+.

To be fair (and to lower myself to the semantic game that's at work here), I think you're the average family, or maybe an average home owner. I don't think $200/year in utility bill savings is out of line for a typical home owner.

~Neal

[Enough]

A few dollars a month, but even the impossible 16 per month wouldnt be enough for me to do it, as I hate the way cfls look and the light they throw is extremely annoying to me, as I hate florecent lighting.

I could have sworn you actually wanted to learn. After reading this statement I know you were just here for an argument.

This is beyond asanine and the only reason I'm even responding is that I am completely dumbfounded. Completely.

You demand proof, to which you dismiss, stating you don't know why, but you are damn sure it's wrong. Then in the end blow off any thing I tried to do to show you that YES they save money with, "No matter what you say, I still won't do it." because you hate the light they give off. State that you hate them first then we can dismiss your view right away next time.

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway, which was shown clearly here yet again.

My point was that someone came up with the compltely insane figure that changing a few lightbulbs would save people 200+ dollars a year in electric costs, and that figure is insanely high for an average person. 50-75 I could agree with, but thats not the figure that was given at the beginning.

Once, your point was that one couldn't save 40% in energy costs. Then it was that saving $200 was impossible. Then it was that it was impossible for you. Then it was that any savings didn't matter because CFLs give off ugly light. Now it's that $200+ is an insanely high figure for the "average" person who changes a "few" bulbs.

You're all over the place here.

Pretty much. And don't forget that the mercury in CFLs makes them too dangerous to use and then his complete dropping of said argument when asked by genuinely curious people for a citation or two to back up the claim and explain the risk factors.

[Exodor]

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway because I consistently ignore data that refutes my opinion and never back up anything I say with anything other than shrill whining and temper tantrums.

Fixed.

[brettmcd]

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway because I consistently ignore data that refutes my opinion and never back up anything I say with anything other than shrill whining and temper tantrums.

Fixed.

And the trolling personal attacks keep on coming.

[Hiccup]

It doesnt matter what is said, my view is dismissed anyway because I consistently ignore data that refutes my opinion and never back up anything I say with anything other than shrill whining and temper tantrums.

Fixed.

And the trolling personal attacks keep on coming.

And so does the dodging of displaying some useful information defending you position. And don't even come back saying "Why should I post anything when no one will care what I say as usual."

I'm still waiting for you too at LEAST admit you took my original statement wrong.