Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

[Blackhawk]

Also, keep in mind that police have a range of choices once 'arrest' has occurred. Jail and/or charges aren't always the outcome. Often police will arrest someone to let things cool down, ask questions, check IDs, figure out what happened, and will then often release those who don't actually need to be prosecuted.

It's one police power that I was always jealous of (with the caveat that there's no way that anyone but law enforcement should be allowed that particular power.)

[Blackhawk]

The left need to admit to themselves the root cause for this is because they are antisemitic and this is the root of their protest. If it wasn’t they’d be protesting Isis, Sudan, Syria, the Uguyrs and Ukraine as well.

"The left" isn't doing this. A bunch of college kids are. Most college kids (from both sides) are barely-informed idealists who don't have the real-world experience to give full context to events and their own reactions, while simultaneously have just received the ability to act on the things that they believe to be true. The vast majority of these people don't even have fully formed brains yet. Maybe those college kids do consider themselves 'the left', but this is a kids thing, not a 'left' thing.

What we need to be looking at is the third parties who seem to be fanning the flames.

[Pyperkub]

But the RW is definitely trying to make it violent. I saw some of the photos of pro-Israel 'counter-protestors' at UCLA, and NONE looked like students.

Then I saw this article:

“The encampment was surrounded by Zionist agitators who were violent in harassing students,” said Vincent Doehr, a third-year PhD student at UCLA and encampment organizer who was present during the incident.

Nathan Mo, a pro-Israel protester, also witnessed the conflict between rallies.

“There was a weakness in the barricades and they (pro-Palestinian protests) were able to bum rush that weak spot and completely swarm and encircle us,” he said.

Hmmm. One quote attributed to a Student, the other with zero description. Let's do some digging - oh, the Daily Bruin Campus newspaper has done better work :

A GoFundMe to support counter-protests of the UCLA pro-Palestine encampment has raised $50,943 in the past 15 hours.

The GoFundMe – created by a user called Nathan Mo from Beverly Hills...

... “This is a big production and will require the help of our community to do it right and make a statement not just to these braindead uneducated sheep sleeping in tents

Yeah, maybe don't give that guy the benefit of the quote in the paper without verification...

[waitingtoconnect]

The left need to admit to themselves the root cause for this is because they are antisemitic and this is the root of their protest. If it wasn’t they’d be protesting Isis, Sudan, Syria, the Uguyrs and Ukraine as well.

I hate what Israel is doing in Gaza and I am not antisemitic. My wife is Jewish and my kids identify as Jewish. We attended a Passover Seder last week, as we do every year.

I hate what's going on with Isis, Sudan, Syria, and the Uguyrs. Supporting Ukraine against Russia is my single biggest foreign-policy concern.

Tell me again how straightforward this all is.

Obviously calling any critique of Israel antisemitism is not a valid counterargument.

Much of these protests though, in my opinion, are driven by agitators who are antisemetic. Antisemitism is being hurled at Jewish students at these protests.

And most of the counter protests are driven by right wing nuts.

[gbasden]

The left need to admit to themselves the root cause for this is because they are antisemitic.

I'm sorry, but this is horseshit. I think Israel is very much in the wrong with it's policies and I think forceable colonization in Palestinian territory is very wrong, but that doesn't mean I am antisemitic. Just like it doesn't mean I hate Catholics because I think Ron Desantis is a petty tyrant who is scoring cheap points by making trans kids lives miserable.

[waitingtoconnect]

The left need to admit to themselves the root cause for this is because they are antisemitic.

I'm sorry, but this is horseshit. I think Israel is very much in the wrong with it's policies and I think forceable colonization in Palestinian territory is very wrong, but that doesn't mean I am antisemitic. Just like it doesn't mean I hate Catholics because I think Ron Desantis is a petty tyrant who is scoring cheap points by making trans kids lives miserable.

I choose my words badly I apologise.

By left and right I mean the left (pro Palestine) and right of this protest and counter protest not left and right politics more generally.

[gbasden]

The left need to admit to themselves the root cause for this is because they are antisemitic.

I'm sorry, but this is horseshit. I think Israel is very much in the wrong with it's policies and I think forceable colonization in Palestinian territory is very wrong, but that doesn't mean I am antisemitic. Just like it doesn't mean I hate Catholics because I think Ron Desantis is a petty tyrant who is scoring cheap points by making trans kids lives miserable.

I choose my words badly I apologise.

By left and right I mean the left (pro Palestine) and right of this protest and counter protest not left and right politics more generally.

Oh, ok. Sorry about that! That's a lot more plausible, though not universal.

[Grifman]

The irony is that a Hamas is a militant Islamic organization, under which both women and gays are oppressed. But let’s take down the U.S. flag and put up the Palestinian flag instead.

The Palestinian flag is not the Hamas flag.

Do you think the protesters are more devoted to supporting Hamas' oppressive ideology or to preventing the suffering of innocent Palestinians? Or does the latter equate to the former?

C'mon, man.

Gay people face persecution under the PA on the West Bank too. In fact a number have applied to Israel for asylum. Islamic states generally aren't safe places for gay people.

When people are posting signs and shouting "From the river to the sea", I tend to think there's more than just concern for innocent civilians going on.

[Grifman]

The left need to admit to themselves the root cause for this is because they are antisemitic and this is the root of their protest. If it wasn’t they’d be protesting Isis, Sudan, Syria, the Uguyrs and Ukraine as well.

I hate what Israel is doing in Gaza and I am not antisemitic. My wife is Jewish and my kids identify as Jewish. We attended a Passover Seder last week, as we do every year.

I hate what's going on with Isis, Sudan, Syria, and the Uguyrs. Supporting Ukraine against Russia is my single biggest foreign-policy concern.

Tell me again how straightforward this all is.

Obviously calling any critique of Israel antisemitism is not a valid counterargument.

Much of these protests though, in my opinion, are driven by agitators who are antisemetic. Antisemitism is being hurled at Jewish students at these protests.

And most of the counter protests are driven by right wing nuts.

Yes, sadly I've seen violence by both sides. Like the war, there seem to be bad actors on both sides.

[Grifman]

Campus is literally where we as a society have all agreed that the next generation gets to voice their disapproval at the current generations. It's been going on for decades. How is this any different? *This* protest is special somehow? Give me a break.

It's different because in far too many cases Jewish students have been harassed, have been excluded/blocked from certain areas of their campuses, made to feel unsafe, and even physically assaulted. That's what's different - in far too many cases the protests have moved from being against Israeli policies to veering into being against Jews.

[Blackhawk]

There's a reason why I always use "Israeli government" rather than "Israel."

[Kurth]

Let’s also not forget that the October 7 attacks weren’t 24 hours old when we already heard voices from the pro-Palestinian camp blaming Israel on the basis that Israeli policies toward Gaza (“an open air prison”) provided important “context” for the attacks. Some went further than that.

It’s hard for me to believe that those same voices are not a driving force if not the nucleus of these current protests on many campuses.

Sure, there are many protesting because of Israel’s prosecution of the war in Gaza. I get that. But there are many, many more chanting slogans in support of a much broader pro-Palestinian agenda.

And something about that is incredibly galling to me. Hamas should not be able to stage a barbarous and unprecedented attack against innocent Israeli civilians and be rewarded with protests on U.S. campuses chanting “Palestine will be free.” It makes me want to throw-up.

[Grifman]

My niece is supposed to graduate from Carolina in two weeks. Now I’m wondering if that is going to happen. Cancelling classes is the totally wrong thing to do IMO.

[Grifman]

The popular Visegrád 24 Twitter account pretends to be a news agency, but just repackages material with a conservative spin

Has anything I posted from them been false? And I’m not sure exactly how the video that was had any “spin”. I also saw it elsewhere.

[Grifman]

[Dogstar]

I disagree about older voters being turned off. I don't want people beaten but I do want Law and Order to prevail in some form at the unruly protests where they have ignored orders to leave or are blocking and/or harassing other students. But it's like the withdrawal from Afghanistan: Even a good idea will look like folly if it's not done correctly, so in that sense I do agree.

I apologize for not doing a better job detailing my point... I agree that older voters won't necessarily be turned off. I think that they, and other segments of society, will look at the protests/clashes, if they continue, with disdain... and lean towards a party that speaks of law and order, under which students taking over a campus building absolutely will not be tolerated (the BLM riots will be a barely remembered memory, and possibly a twisted one at that).

And something about that is incredibly galling to me. Hamas should not be able to stage a barbarous and unprecedented attack against innocent Israeli civilians and be rewarded with protests on U.S. campuses chanting “Palestine will be free.” It makes me want to throw-up.

You don't get to this point just by Oct. 7, so I think it's a little unfair to just link the Oct. 7 attack and "Palestine will be free." There's at least 75 years of modern history. There's an element in our culture that likes the underdog. There's an element in our culture that likes free determination. There's an element that believes in equal rights and justice. There seems to be an element at colleges that's anti-authority/system since... forever (in my days, it was Che Guevara that was popular). There's also a lot of idealism there, even if it isn't always practical or realistic. The IDF, through bombs, rifles, AI-targeting programs, and restriction of supplies and food, has killed 30,000+ people since October 7.

If none of this other stuff was true, sure, I can understand being horrified at pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses because of October 7th. But the rest of it exists. I absolutely draw the line at violence and intimidation, occupying buildings, and at restricting others from their education. I don't believe in supporting Hamas. But I don't find it galling at all, recognizing the things I just listed, that there are protests on college campuses that go beyond asking for a ceasefire and instead lean towards Palestinian statehood/rights.


And Grifman, I don't it was the video that was so much spinning as "these protestors hate America." That's not an uncommon refrain on conservative websites, although some people do tend to call them terrorists with a bit more frequency. There are definitely bad elements mixed in with the protests -- and we've detailed some of that unacceptable behavior here -- but broadly labeling protestors as anti-America, Hamas-supporting, or terrorists is probably something we should try to avoid doing unless that's explicitly expressed or the stated goal/attitude of a specific protest.

[Grifman]

I guess if they fly the Hamas flag, we can wag our fingers at them.

On the spectrum of things college students could be doing to protest what's happening in Gaza, raising the Palestinian flag in support doesn't even register on my outrage meter here.

But if you want support from the broader public that already pretty much overwhelmingly supports Israel, do you think this is a really smart thing to do? Pissing people off isn’t going to gain you supporters.

It's also not going to look good when Republicans run campaign ads with videos of Biden promising to forgive student loans with videos students are taking down the American flag. Republicans should run these ads 24/7 in moderate/middle and low income neighborhoods.

[Victoria Raverna]

Interesting interview:



And interesting quote from a commentor:

I’m a graduate student at Columbia and the media is doing a terrible job of covering the entire debate and what’s happening there. I saw protests almost every week since this happened in October, and they were mostly peaceful. People were passionate, and both sides were respectful. Pro-Palestine does not equal Hamas, and it’s disgusting he assumes those protesters don’t know that. They’ve been calling for a ceasefire all year. No one mentioned the pro-Palestinian students that were doxxed for speaking out, and had their personal information plastered on a van that drove around Morningside Heights and Harlem, or one of my Arab-American professors that was assaulted by a Jewish student on Amsterdam Ave outside of the campus gates. Anyone targeting Jewish students should be expelled immediately because they don’t deserve that, but the other part of the conversation isn’t being had. Pro-Palestinian students are being harassed and suspended for speaking out about the state of Israel. That IS a concerted effort to shut down free speech and that’s completely un-American.

[Victoria Raverna]

Clash at UCLA when people (counter protestors?) are trying to disband the encampment.

[pr0ner]

Well people on Twitter are now calling the Biden government authoritarian and fascist after last night's events, so we've got that going for us. Fun seeing words lose their meaning in real time.

[Smoove_B]

I'm old enough to remember when a President was asking for guns to be used on George Floyd protestors in D.C. and had a helicopter fly low over them instead to "blade-wash" the crowd.

But yeah, Biden is totally an authoritarian lunatic.

[Smoove_B]

But if you want support from the broader public that already pretty much overwhelmingly supports Israel, do you think this is a really smart thing to do? Pissing people off isn’t going to gain you supporters.

Language matters, and I think people supporting Palestinians trapped (being killed, being starved) in Gaza and condemning the Israeli government have it right.

People that are broadly making this a Palestinian vs Israeli situation aren't helping. As others have stated, I think you can protest how the people in Gaza are being (have been) treated right now and call out the Israeli government for their role. I don't think doing so in any way condones what Hamas did in October or what they're continuing to do now.

[GreenGoo]

A lot of people don't realize that what they're reacting to isn't attitude or ego, it's being surrounded and overwhelmed by actively hostile people and having someone charge at them. No, you can't wait until they actually attack the officers, because if they're capable of inflicting harm, that harm would already be inflicted.

Yes, you absolutely can wait until the police are attacked. In fact, in a just society, that's what you do. That's one of the duties of a peace officer. Being first to use force is the opposite of peace.

Canada is not role model, we make lots of mistakes too that I'm not happy with, and these protests are happening here. I encourage you to compare and contrast how the universities are handling things here, and how the cops are reacting.

There are similarities, and there are differences. Tone not the least among them. There is a different mindset in the US than in many other places, and some people suggest that it's the only mindset possible. It isn't.

[pr0ner]

I'm old enough to remember when a President was asking for guns to be used on George Floyd protestors in D.C. and had a helicopter fly low over them instead to "blade-wash" the crowd.

But yeah, Biden is totally an authoritarian lunatic.

I know Twitter amplifies the worst in discourse, but it is crazy to me that the reaction from people ostensibly on the "left" to the campus protests is to go full MAGA and call Biden a fascist.

[hepcat]

The left has its own Marjorie Taylor Greenes and Matt Gaetzs, I'm sure.

[Blackhawk]

A lot of people don't realize that what they're reacting to isn't attitude or ego, it's being surrounded and overwhelmed by actively hostile people and having someone charge at them. No, you can't wait until they actually attack the officers, because if they're capable of inflicting harm, that harm would already be inflicted.

Yes, you absolutely can wait until the police are attacked. In fact, in a just society, that's what you do. That's one of the duties of a peace officer. Being first to use force is the opposite of peace.

I disagree. When someone represents a potential threat to another officer in the middle of a tense situation through their own choices, that person getting restrained is reasonable. Cops are down and involved with a combative suspect. They have other officers standing by to keep them safe. Someone, screaming and shouting, charges up, past the 'stay back' line (and there was one), straight behind one of the officers who can't defend himself. That's a reasonable cause to consider them a threat.

Stop it at that point for a sec.

What should happen at that point is that the cop tells that person to get down, they do, they get handcuffed and set somewhere out of the way, no longer a threat. The cops them finish with the original situation, at which point they question the restrained person, decide whether she actually represented a threat, or if it was just someone who got a little too wound up. If the latter, the cops give them a warning and send them on their way.

Just like in any other potentially violent situation. People screaming in each others faces and won't back down? Handcuffs, then question, then let the ones who don't need more attention go. Someone acting erratically? Put them into handcuffs while you figure out why so you don't have to deal with them destroying evidence, running, or taking a swing. Question them safely, determine what to do, and let them go/book them/get them help.

The point where this got complicated was when...

the cop tells that person to get down, they do, they get handcuffed

...instead resulted in the person yanking and pulling and refusing to follow the instructions they were being clearly given.

And just on the concept that they have to wait until they are attacked first, someone refusing to put down a knife that hasn't attacked anyone is still going to either put down the knife or face use of force, nonlethal if possible, lethal if necessary. The cops don't have to wait until they're charging someone to act if they have reason to believe that they represent a danger.

And that bolded part applied in this case.

[Blackhawk]

Well people on Twitter are now calling the Biden government authoritarian and fascist after last night's events, so we've got that going for us. Fun seeing words lose their meaning in real time.

That's what Biden gets for sending in the national guard to deal with protests opposing our connection to problematic wars. Kids, get your gun flowers ready!

[Unagi]

Protesting ain’t what it used to be with the DoorDash/Grubhub generation in charge now:

So, she isn't asking for food or water - but TWEET makes it sound like she is. And then you are pointing out that it's easier with DoorDash/Grubhub to get yourself food and drinks.

What's your point? It sounds like what this was about was how water and food was being forced away and she wanted it to be let in, if people sent for it.


And just which generation gets to take ownership of DoorDash/GrubnHub exactly? Is that this college-age-generation's thing, or is someone from my generation running that show?


Grifman, do you have kids? If so, what age?

[Unagi]

The popular Visegrád 24 Twitter account pretends to be a news agency, but just repackages material with a conservative spin

Has anything I posted from them been false? And I’m not sure exactly how the video that was had any “spin”. I also saw it elsewhere.

dude. take stock

[Jaymann]

Does Door Dash deliver to jail? Asking for a friend.

[GreenGoo]

I disagree.

Yes. I know. We all know.

[GreenGoo]

The left has its own Marjorie Taylor Greenes and Matt Gaetzs, I'm sure.

You try not to elect them though, it seems to me. Listen to MTG beside AOC and tell me they are cut from the same cloth. More than sound bites, I mean.

[Blackhawk]

Taking the hint.

[Grifman]

Protesting ain’t what it used to be with the DoorDash/Grubhub generation in charge now:

So, she isn't asking for food or water - but TWEET makes it sound like she is. And then you are pointing out that it's easier with DoorDash/Grubhub to get yourself food and drinks.

What's your point? It sounds like what this was about was how water and food was being forced away and she wanted it to be let in, if people sent for it.

Actually she backtracks when questioned by reporters. She quite clearly says at the beginning that Columbia should provide food for protestors who are on a meal plan, LOL. When pushed by reporters about the school providing food to people breaking the rules, she say, no we’re not asking for food, we just ask that food/water not be denied. Then when reporters ask if food/water are being denied, she then says well, she doesn’t know, but she is seeking a commitment that Columbia will let food and water be brought in.

I’m not sure why they can’t protest in shifts, some eat while others man the protest. And others have noted that all of the campus dining facilities are open. And I really doubt that Columbia, as unorganized as their handing of the protest has been, has blocked students from bringing in food. I’ve not seen any reporting indicating anything like a food/water blockade. What is Columbia doing, are they going to pat down every student, checking them for subs and pizzas?

My point is that all seems very silly and performative.

Grifman, do you have kids? If so, what age?

Why is that relevant? But for the record, I once was a college student at a fairly liberal university. Does that count?

[Grifman]

The popular Visegrád 24 Twitter account pretends to be a news agency, but just repackages material with a conservative spin

Has anything I posted from them been false? And I’m not sure exactly how the video that was had any “spin”. I also saw it elsewhere.

dude. take stock

Every day.

[hepcat]

Does Door Dash deliver to jail? Asking for a friend.

Absolutely. Try the Keistered Chicken. Pair it with some prison purse potatoes and a nice red toilet wine.

[Unagi]

She quite clearly says at the beginning that Columbia should provide food for protestors who are on a meal plan, LOL.

Maybe I'm not following it all as much as I should - but at a base level - it seems like Columbia should provide food for people who bought it off them, right?
But, yeah - I don't plan to look too much into this event - (I don't even care to go back and listen to it again, as I didn't recall her saying everything you said she said, but again - I don't really care I guess)

[Unagi]

Grifman, do you have kids? If so, what age?

Why is that relevant? But for the record, I once was a college student at a fairly liberal university. Does that count?

To me, it's relevant (not to the specifics of this lady's remarks - but more generally on the thread's topic), and if it isn't to you - I wouldn't be surprised to hear that.

And, for the record - no. Not sure why that would apply to the question I asked.

[GreenGoo]

Taking the hint.

There's no hint. You expressed yourself very clearly and not unreasonably. Your mindset is a common mindset and one I often find myself agreeing with.

However these aren't career criminals rioting, and I think they need to be handled more gently than your average protestor irrespective of the topic being protested or which side of the topic they find themselves on. I also understand that that is an unpopular opinion with many people. Reap what you sow and all that.

So we're not going to agree on this, and that's fine.

[Holman]

Gay people face persecution under the PA on the West Bank too. In fact a number have applied to Israel for asylum. Islamic states generally aren't safe places for gay people.

When people are posting signs and shouting "From the river to the sea", I tend to think there's more than just concern for innocent civilians going on.

Small children dying under Israeli bombs don't have opinions about homosexuality.

Grif, you know what 98% of the protesters are against here, and it's definitely *not* homosexuality.

I know a lot of people on a lot of university campuses. My social media is full of them reporting Pro-Palestine students *and Jewish students* linking arms and calling for an end to the suffering in Gaza. Somehow that never seems to make it into the media narrative.