50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

[tgb]

[UsulofDoom]

If nothing was done after Sandy Hook I can't imagine this will be anything other than a data point. I just read there's been close to a 1000 mass shootings since Sandy Hook and nothing has changed. It's all just so terribly depressing and hours later I'm still having troubling processing it.

And what should have been done?

[Blackhawk]

That is so. Are no measures better than half-measures, then?

If the half measures are knee-jerk feel good responses that are actually counterproductive? Yes.

Really, though. We should just come up with a 'gun tragedy' template thread, then copy it and change the name every few months. They're almost identical.

[msduncan]

Just read an account of the scene that I never thought of, and that seems horrifically nightmarish. Many of the bodies of course have to lay for hours where they fell. The officers have to tune out a chorus of endless cell phone ringing as loved ones desperately try to reach the victims.

I could have gone all year without reading that.


And yes, I agree with the above posts that we should try to avoid the political discussion as much as possible so that this thread won't have to be moved.

[Kraken]

That is so. Are no measures better than half-measures, then?

If the half measures are knee-jerk feel good responses that are actually counterproductive? Yes.

The policy that I suggested contributes to MA having the lowest rate of gun violence in the US (according to the CDC). I humbly suggest that it is worth considering elsewhere. That's the last I'll say on the subject since I don't want to banish this thread...and I've said it before anyway.

Nothing changes.

[tgb]

That is so. Are no measures better than half-measures, then?

If the half measures are knee-jerk feel good responses that are actually counterproductive? Yes.

The policy that I suggested contributes to MA having the lowest rate of gun violence in the US (according to the CDC). I humbly suggest that it is worth considering elsewhere. That's the last I'll say on the subject since I don't want to banish this thread...and I've said it before anyway.

Nothing changes.

The biggest problem I see is having to cast your fate with the whims of real people. DO I have to get an ok for a gun from Andy Taylor or Joe Arpaio? That alone makes for a big difference.

[Isgrimnur]

There have been lawsuits over "shall issue" versus "must issue" jurisdictions. To my mind, personal subjectivity should have no place in a written law. That's up to enforcement, prosecution, and the judiciary.

[Isgrimnur]

In other Orlando news, Christina Grimmie of The Voice was shot to death on Saturday while signing autographs at an appearance.

Florida authorities answered one of the major questions in the shooting death of Christina Grimmie, the 22-year-old singer who made her name on NBC's "The Voice."

The man who killed her was Kevin James Loibl, 27, of St. Petersburg, Florida, according to Orlando police.
...
Grimmie was signing autographs late Friday after a show at The Plaza Live theater when a man approached and opened fire, police spokeswoman Wanda Miglio said.

She was rushed to a hospital, where she died.

Loibl fatally shot himself after the singer's brother, Marcus Grimmie, tackled him, police said in a statement. About 120 people were at the meet-and-greet, and the brother's quick action may have saved other lives, police said.

The shooter had two handguns, two additional loaded magazines and a large hunting knife, police Chief John Mina said.

[hepcat]

Station a Mike lookalike outside every crowded venue in America. That would certainly make me think twice about starting anything.

[Malificent]

Alas, as I observed earlier, in MA pipe bombs were already strictly verboten when the Tsarnaev brothers carried out their attack on the Boston Marathon; I suppose one could interpret that as a problem of inadequate pipe bomb legislation, though I'd be inclined to disagree. Sadly, I suspect sufficiently-motivated adherents of such a hateful and repugnant underlying ideology will always find a way to perpetrate atrocities within democratic societies that value personal liberty.

You say that like guns can be manufactured in your kitchen using fertilzer, a few nails and a pressure cooker.

Just as a side note, it doesn't take much for me to imagine a world where someone could use a 3-D printer to create their gun. Future is approaching fast and we're probably not prepared for it. (But then again, when are we ever?)

[rshetts2]

Alas, as I observed earlier, in MA pipe bombs were already strictly verboten when the Tsarnaev brothers carried out their attack on the Boston Marathon; I suppose one could interpret that as a problem of inadequate pipe bomb legislation, though I'd be inclined to disagree. Sadly, I suspect sufficiently-motivated adherents of such a hateful and repugnant underlying ideology will always find a way to perpetrate atrocities within democratic societies that value personal liberty.

You say that like guns can be manufactured in your kitchen using fertilzer, a few nails and a pressure cooker.

Just as a side note, it doesn't take much for me to imagine a world where someone could use a 3-D printer to create their gun. Future is approaching fast and we're probably not prepared for it. (But then again, when are we ever?)

No need to imagine it, its already doable. Regading the 3-D printable Liberator:

Unlike the original, steel Liberator, though, Wilson’s weapon is almost entirely plastic: Fifteen of its 16 pieces have been created inside an $8,000 second-hand Stratasys Dimension SST 3D printer, a machine that lays down threads of melted polymer that add up to precisely-shaped solid objects just as easily as a traditional printer lays ink on a page. The only non-printed piece is a common hardware store nail used as its firing pin.

This was 3 years ago, its even easier now.

[Fireball]

Here's another class act.

He's saying this was not done in response to the tragedy, but was "scheduled last Thursday"

I'll leave it up to you whether to believe him or not.

I'm not one to be charitable to Dan Patrick, but I believe him. He always posts insipid Bible verses like this at 7:00am on Sunday. What's particularly sad is that there is no context in which this particular verse wouldn't make him sound like a dick. He just happened to really step into it. Not intentional, but still displaying just how un-Christian he actually is.

[Smoove_B]

Ahhh...pre-scheduled Bible quote tweets - as Jesus would have wanted.

[Pyperkub]

And of course, this is already happening:

The vultures have already begun to descend on the tragedy in Orlando, Florida. A fake Twitter account claiming to represent the nightclub where the largest mass shooting in modern US history took place in the early hours of June 12 was calling for donations to assist victims—by sending bitcoins to buy bottled water and Oreo cookies.

[em2nought]

So y'all want gun control? Here's the kind I could support maybe. Yearly, $500 tax on first gun purchase that pays for your NRA life membership. Second purchase $500 tax which goes to support the civilian marksmanship program http://thecmp.org/ and make Garands cheaper for me to purchase, and help teach some idiot congress persons not to pose with their fingers on the trigger. Third, fourth, fifth firearm purchase $500 tax that goes to incarcerate(in China) for life any criminal caught in possession of a firearm, or anyone caught in possession of a stolen firearm. I don't necessarily want poor people to have firearms.

Of course none of this stops terrorists because they're funded by oil baby, or drug dealers for that matter.

[hepcat]

[Anonymous Bosch]

I just wanted to underscore a point FBI Director James Comey made during in his press conference today, as it's a proposition I can distinctly recall discussing before here myself regarding other mass shootings, that I sincerely hope may finally be getting legs at the highest levels:

Remarks as delivered.

Thank you, Sally. I want to echo what the Deputy Attorney General said just now. Our hearts are broken and ache for the people who were lost in Orlando, those wounded, and their families. We are so sorry for you loss and your suffering.

I also want to say a word of thanks and express admiration for the work of local law enforcement in Orlando. They showed professionalism and extraordinary bravery that saved lives. We are very lucky that such good people choose lives of service in law enforcement.

Last, I want say a word of thanks to the people who rendered care that saved lives at the scene. The docs, the EMTs, the nurses, the victim specialist, and the ordinary citizens who stopped to help family and friends. You showed the best part of humanity in the midst of terrible loss.

As you know, this is a federal terrorism investigation led by the FBI, with the assistance, as we always do, of our state, local, and federal partners. The reason for that is there are strong indications of radicalization by this killer, and a potential inspiration by foreign terrorist organizations.

We are spending a tremendous amount of time, as you would imagine, trying to understand every moment of this killer’s path to that terrible night in Orlando, to understand his motives, and to understand the details of his life. You will notice that I am not using the killer’s name, and I will try not to do that. Part of what motivates sick people to do this kind of thing is some twisted notion of fame or glory, and I don’t want to be part of that for the sake of the victims and their families, and so that other twisted minds don’t think that this is a path to fame and recognition.

If I had my druthers, I wish President Obama would take that up himself, and go one step further, specifically requesting media outlets voluntarily follow Comey's example in their coverage. Because immediately after the press conference concluded -- I think on CBS? -- they went right back to showing the asshole's own favoured selfies as part of their coverage.

[rshetts2]

I just wanted to underscore a point FBI Director James Comey made during in his press conference today, as it's a proposition I can distinctly recall discussing before here myself regarding other mass shootings, that I sincerely hope may finally be getting legs at the highest levels:

Remarks as delivered.

Thank you, Sally. I want to echo what the Deputy Attorney General said just now. Our hearts are broken and ache for the people who were lost in Orlando, those wounded, and their families. We are so sorry for you loss and your suffering.

I also want to say a word of thanks and express admiration for the work of local law enforcement in Orlando. They showed professionalism and extraordinary bravery that saved lives. We are very lucky that such good people choose lives of service in law enforcement.

Last, I want say a word of thanks to the people who rendered care that saved lives at the scene. The docs, the EMTs, the nurses, the victim specialist, and the ordinary citizens who stopped to help family and friends. You showed the best part of humanity in the midst of terrible loss.

As you know, this is a federal terrorism investigation led by the FBI, with the assistance, as we always do, of our state, local, and federal partners. The reason for that is there are strong indications of radicalization by this killer, and a potential inspiration by foreign terrorist organizations.

We are spending a tremendous amount of time, as you would imagine, trying to understand every moment of this killer’s path to that terrible night in Orlando, to understand his motives, and to understand the details of his life. You will notice that I am not using the killer’s name, and I will try not to do that. Part of what motivates sick people to do this kind of thing is some twisted notion of fame or glory, and I don’t want to be part of that for the sake of the victims and their families, and so that other twisted minds don’t think that this is a path to fame and recognition.

If I had my druthers, I wish President Obama would take that up himself, and go one step further, specifically requesting media outlets voluntarily follow Comey's example in their coverage. Because immediately after the press conference concluded -- I think on CBS? -- they went right back to showing the asshole's own favoured selfies as part of their coverage.

This is a stance Ive taken since Columbine. Dont glorify these people by blasting their names all over the world. Especially once they are in custody. Refer to them as the primary suspect or something. And once convicted it should be the law that we change their name to a criminal # and that they be referred to as such from that day forward. Have their name removed from all public record as well.

[Holman]

I don't know whether they will turn out to be legitimate, but there are now reports that the killer had been a regular at The Pulse for at least a couple of years.

That link is to Gawker, but it quotes named witnesses in newspaper interviews. At least one performer and one long-time patron report that they knew the shooter, who was well-known for getting very drunk and being asked to leave.

So maybe not the most orthodox of ISIS converts, then.

[msteelers]

That's an interesting take for the FBI Agent, considering they are asking anyone who knew the shooter to step forward with information. You can't ask for the public's help, and then not identify the shooter.

As a radio news guy in the shooters hometown, I've made the conscience decision to use his name. First, the people in my audience know him. They grew up with him, went to school with him, and worked with him. Withholding his name does nothing. Second, it's my job to relay information. Purposefully holding back information is the opposite of what I'm paid to do. And finally, branding these people as "shit head #976" does nothing to help us understand the situation.

By reporting the shooters name, we have a more complete idea of who he is. We know the FBI checked him out twice and cleared him both times. We know that he had multiple security guard permits. We know that he creeped out people at various jobs around town, and was very openly homophobic. His ex-wife said he abused her, and that he was bipolar. She also said that she believed it was his mental disease that pushed him to violence. But we also have reports from his high school days that he showed sympathies to the 9-11 attackers, claiming that America was going to get what she deserved. We also know the father has some questionable views as well, with video posts online claiming to be the eventual ruler of Afghanistan with an international intelligence community already at his finger tips, and close ties to Congress. It's so strange that a CBS News expert called him delusional.

We know these things because the shooters name was made public, and the community stepped forward to paint a picture of who he was. Now the trick is to learn from it. Maybe the FBI will improve their ability to identify future threats. They had two cracks at this guy, and missed. Maybe we will begin to recognize bat shit crazy people, and be able to alert law enforcement in time. After all, the through line between this shooter, and the Sandy Hook asshole, and all the rest, is that they are mentally ill. It's not their religion.

Apologies for the rant. I typed this up on my phone. Hopefully it's coherent.

[msteelers]

I don't know whether they will turn out to be legitimate, but there are now reports that the killer had been a regular at The Pulse for at least a couple of years.

That link is to Gawker, but it quotes named witnesses in newspaper interviews. At least one performer and one long-time patron report that they knew the shooter, who was well-known for getting very drunk and being asked to leave.

So maybe not the most orthodox of ISIS converts, then.

That would explain why he chose that club. I haven't heard any compelling theories yet as to why he chose that place, a bar two hours away from his apartment.

[Holman]

Also, the FBI reported that the shooter had at various times pledged allegiance online to Hezbollah, ISIS, and al Nusra--three incompatible groups that in fact are fighting each other in Syria.

Whatever he thought his religious politics were, they weren't coherent.

[RunningMn9]

So I guess the Orlando police chief mentioned that the gun was an "AR-15 type assault rifle", so many media outlets went with AR-15.

According to an irate Facebook friend, the weapon was actually a Sig Sauer MCX. I guess the distinction is really, really important.

I saw on Sig's website that this rifle is designed to be silent, light and short. Perfect for hunting and target shooting I guess.

[msteelers]

The ATF tweeted that it was a ".223 caliber AR type rifle". From what I can tell, the Sig Sauer MCX doesn't fire that type of ammo.

The MCX’s modular design also makes it completely mission-adaptable. Swapping from .300 Blackout to 5.56 NATO only requires the shooter to change out the barrel and op rod, while converting to 7.62x39mm entails an additional bolt face change. Barrel lengths can also be adjusted, and 16- and 9-inch versions will be available initially.

I have zero first hand experience with guns though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Victoria Raverna]

The ATF tweeted that it was a ".223 caliber AR type rifle". From what I can tell, the Sig Sauer MCX doesn't fire that type of ammo.

The MCX’s modular design also makes it completely mission-adaptable. Swapping from .300 Blackout to 5.56 NATO only requires the shooter to change out the barrel and op rod, while converting to 7.62x39mm entails an additional bolt face change. Barrel lengths can also be adjusted, and 16- and 9-inch versions will be available initially.

I have zero first hand experience with guns though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also have zero first hand experience with guns so maybe I misunderstood.

In summary: .223 Remington ammunition may be shot safely in either a .223 Remington or a 5.56mm chamber. However, you should only shoot 5.56mm ammunition in a rifle with a 5.56mm chamber or you are risking a potentially catastrophic (and dangerous) incident.

[hepcat]

According to an irate Facebook friend, the weapon was actually a Sig Sauer MCX. I guess the distinction is really, really important.

We must have a few friends in similar then as I also have seen that odd outburst from one or two people. It's like getting mad at someone for telling you C4 was used in a bombing instead of Semtex. What the hell difference does it freakin' make?

[Paingod]

Maybe we need to pass a Federal law stating that any person that commits a crime like this and is caught automatically and instantly has their name legally changed to "Some Asshole" and only through a trial where innocence is found can they get their name changed again. Sure, there'd be a lot of Assholes - but they'd all blend together and get no real 'fame' for it.

I heard on the radio that there's some thought that he might have been an enraged closet gay, too - having visited the club and created a dating profile or something. I'm just going to stick with that in my head because I'm sure it's the last way he'd want to be remembered.

[Smoove_B]

What the hell difference does it freakin' make?

Because it must be really irritating to read over and over again that the same gun was used to murder lots of people (Colorado movie theater, Sandy Hook Elementary School, San Bernardino Health Department, Umpqua Community College in Oregon). If it wasn't used this time in Orlando, clearly that particular gun shouldn't be the focus of our attention.

[Isgrimnur]

Chick-Fil-A

At least two Chick-fil-A restaurants in Orlando opened, not to serve the public, but to make food for those donating blood to the victims of the Orlando shooting that killed 49.
...
Later that day, blood donors were so numerous in Orlando that OneBlood asked donors to stop coming and return in a few days, because they were at capacity. And Chick-fil-A decided to help those donors by going in Sunday, despite the longtime policy, cooking food and handing it out to donors.

Probably not a corporate decision, but kudos to those that opened their doors.

[RunningMn9]

I heard on the radio that there's some thought that he might have been an enraged closet gay, too - having visited the club and created a dating profile or something. I'm just going to stick with that in my head because I'm sure it's the last way he'd want to be remembered.

I'm really left wondering if that angle is intentionally being played up because of that fact.

[Kraken]

There have been lawsuits over "shall issue" versus "must issue" jurisdictions. To my mind, personal subjectivity should have no place in a written law. That's up to enforcement, prosecution, and the judiciary.

I said I was going to drop this subject due to popular demand, but it seems I mischaracterized it. Here's a clarification:

Massachusetts is a “may-issue” state for the issuance of licenses to carry firearms, meaning that the local licensing authority has discretion in determining whether or not to issue either license type to an applicant. It may deny the application or renewal of an applicant, or suspend or revoke a license, if in the “reasonable exercise of discretion,” the licensing authority determines that the applicant or licensee is unsuitable to carry a firearm. A determination of unsuitability must be based on reliable and credible information that the individual has exhibited or engaged in behavior that he or she poses a risk to public safety. A license to carry will be revoked or suspended by the licensing authority upon the occurrence of any event that would have disqualified the holder from being issued the license, or if it appears to the licensing authority that the holder is no longer a suitable person to possess the license. Upon the denial of an application or renewal, or the suspension or revocation, of a license to carry based on unsuitability, the licensing authority must notify the applicant or licensee of the specific reasons for the determination.

I second-guessed myself when I came upon this in a news story today: "In 2014, then-Governor Deval Patrick signed a law that allows chiefs of police to go to court to keep rifles and shotguns away from people they believe too dangerous to be armed."

So the police chiefs do play an important role, but they do have a burden of proof to deny a license. If you have a clean record but just don't pass the smell test they need court approval to deny.

OK, now that the record is corrected I can drop the subject as promised.

[Holman]

I heard on the radio that there's some thought that he might have been an enraged closet gay, too - having visited the club and created a dating profile or something. I'm just going to stick with that in my head because I'm sure it's the last way he'd want to be remembered.

I'm really left wondering if that angle is intentionally being played up because of that fact.

We look for causes in things like this, even if only partial ones.

If he's a dedicated jihadist who made contact with ISIS and struck a blow to further the cause of the Caliphate, we see an attack motivated by loyalty to foreign ideology. If he's a case of self-hating homophobic guilt who aped a muddled online radical jihadism in backlash against his own desires, we see a different explanation.

Both narratives are complex, and the deaths are equally horrific in each, but only one of them invites us to betray our national values in overreaction.

[GreenGoo]

Headlines in my google new feed this morning:

"Family Guy Creator Seth McFarlane's Blunt Reaction to Orlando Terror Attack: 'Ban Automatic Weapons'" - The Blaze
Similar headline - Huffington Post
Similar headline - some other newspaper
paraphrased "Seth McFarlane schooled on twitter regarding Automatic Weapons" - Breitbart news

[Isgrimnur]

He should be schooled, as there were no automatic weapons used by the shooter.

[RunningMn9]

He should be schooled, as there were no automatic weapons used by the shooter.

Right, that's the takeaway people should have.

[GreenGoo]

He should be schooled, as there were no automatic weapons used by the shooter.

Absolutely.

I'm not certain it's headline worthy, however.

That said, I'm not certain that McFarlane's opinion on the matter is headline worthy either, and I say that as a big fan of his work, and often enough, his general opinion on things.

So from that perspective the entire thing is kind of useless.

[Isgrimnur]

He should be schooled, as there were no automatic weapons used by the shooter.

Right, that's the takeaway people should have.

If the media decides to make it a point of major discussion, it should be a two-way discussion. There are still people that take what celebrities say as worth more than other people. Like it or not, their impact far outweighs their intelligence in public matters. One only need look at Jenny McCarthy to see the damage that a misinformed celebrity can do.

[RunningMn9]

If the media decides to make it a point of major discussion, it should be a two-way discussion.

The problem is that the clarification only serves as a deflection from the real issue. Like that guy that stridently declared that the gun used was a Sig Sauer MCX and not an AR-15. That additional information is meaningless to the issue at hand. Did anyone seriously misconstrue what Seth McFarlane meant? Is correcting "automatic weapons" to "semi-automatic assault rifles" really that important, when *everyone* who read his comment would intuitively know that he meant "the sort of gun that this shit head and seemingly every other shit head uses to inflict mass casualties uses"?

But yes, I don't suppose that I really care for Seth McFarlane's opinion on the matter either.

[Isgrimnur]

You put more faith in the people reading those stories than I do. And when those people are politically active, that sort of confusion can have real impacts.

[Isgrimnur]

Case in point

During an interview on Meet The Press, Sen. Bernie Sanders reacted to the horrific mass shooting in Orlando by calling for automatic weapons not to be sold in the US.

:mic drop: