Octopus Overlords

Collis/Murkowski asked the Trump lawyer for a timeline about when Trump found out about the insurrection, what he did, and when he did it, and asked to be as detailed as possible. The Trump lawyer got up and said this whole thing was rushed, no investigation has occurred, and then walked off. You can't make this stuff up. This is transparently a sham *again*.

It's a shame Trump's schedule was too busy to allow him to testify to clear up these questions.

If I ever have to have a trial by jury I want all republicans on it so I go scott free.

The important message here is that none of it matters. Actions have consequences but consequences don't matter. All that matters is getting yours and getting away with it.

Lessons from American leadership.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:24 pmActions have consequences but consequences don't matter.*

*No consequences guarantee may not apply to black/brown or middle-class or poorer.

This is factually inaccurate. There is a record of a call between Trump and Tuberville. Mike Lee threw a shitfit about some of statements ascribed to him on this call on day 1.

Very happy Stacy Plaskett called out Trump's defense on repeatedly using African-American women in their videos portraying the Democrats as inciting violence. It wasn't lost on me either that they were disproportionately focusing on women and minorities in their presentation.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:34 pm This is factually inaccurate. There is a record of a call between Trump and Tuberville. Mike Lee threw a shitfit about some of statements ascribed to him on this call on day 1.

Facts don't matter, silly.

Holy shit. Van der Veen is REALLY not top people. This guy is terrible.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:39 pm Very happy Stacy Plaskett called out Trump's defense on repeatedly using African-American women in their videos portraying the Democrats as inciting violence. It wasn't lost on me either that they were disproportionately focusing on women and minorities in their presentation.

Same here. It sure feel like this whole thing is a continuation of the coup. Maybe it isn't hot but we're back to plotting in the shadows and they are planted seeds with this defense. I appreciate her pointing this out because it is purposeful.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:34 pm This is factually inaccurate. There is a record of a call between Trump and Tuberville. Mike Lee threw a shitfit about some of statements ascribed to him on this call on day 1.

It also implies that the Secret Service going into terror-attack crisis mode at the Capitol would not be in contact with the Secret Service at the WH.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:52 pm Holy shit. Van der Veen is REALLY not top people. This guy is terrible.

Yeah - this is deplorable conduct. This two-bit lawyer is spitting vitriol at the House Managers. Very disrespectful. Unbecoming. But this is what happens when you have an entire party that encourages uncivil and violent political action.

Kurth" wrote:Holy shit. Van der Veen is REALLY not top people. This guy is terrible.

It's been entertaining (in a very sad, horrific way) to watch him play "Look at the Wookiee!" and dodging all questions by hammering on the "to the death" tweet brought up by the House managers.

It's almost cartoonish in its "slimy lawyer" transparency.

Also, WTH is he talking about re "doctored evidence"?

And this question:



Van der Veen's response: I don't know. My judgment doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he was lying.

Wow.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:04 pm Also, WTH is he talking about re "doctored evidence"?

Well, the defense started with implying that the attack was led by Antifa, so any and all bullshit claims are on the table.

Kurth wrote:Also, WTH is he talking about re "doctored evidence"?

He was still harping about the House manager bringing up Trump's "fight to the death" tweet. While Trump specifically said Democrats would "fight to death" if the election was stolen from them, the House managers point was that this was an implication to his followers that they should fight to the death too.

So he blew it all out of proportion and is playing the victim of them attributing words to Trump he didn't say (even though anyone with a modicum of common sense knows *exactly* what Trump meant.)

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:04 pm Also, WTH is he talking about re "doctored evidence"?

Sit down for this. It is the type of thing that'll make you light-headed if you are able to follow it. They claimed early in the day that the 13-minute video presentation was manipulated because it was edited to portray Trump in a negative light. Then the defense played a 10-minute video of Democrats using the word fight.

I haven't been following closely (failed my SAN check early on), but did they officially pin this on Pelosi yet? That she's actually responsible for the violence?

Van der Veen leads off every answer with a personal dig at the house managers. It's so bush league. He'd get absolutely dressed down in any actual court of law. Judges don't brook that bullshit.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:23 pm I haven't been following closely (failed my SAN check early on), but did they officially pin this on Pelosi yet? That she's actually responsible for the violence?

No, I think it's Kamala Harris's fault. At least, that's where Van der Veen seems to be going with his whataboutism.

Unless I misheard, (R) Cassidy from Louisiana just asked a really searing question to both sides about Trump's knowledge that Pence was in danger and lack of caring:



Van der Veen's response: I dispute that Tuberville told Trump Pence was being evacuated. It's all the house manager's fault for rushing this, ignoring due process, and relying on hearsay.

Edit to add, I guess that's not a surprising question from Cassidy:

“There are those that think I should put President Trump above the Constitution,” Cassidy said. “That’s not conservatism. That’s not Republicanism. And I reject it.”

It is amazing. The guy is flat out lying. That call has been confirmed. Tuberville told Politico about that call *on the record* last night. It was widely reported and referenced today. He is lying to the Senate because there are no consequences.

Raskin is very good. He very succinctly made an important point just now: This is not a criminal conviction. The standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt. Trump won't spend one minute in jail if convicted here. This is about protecting out country and our democracy going forward.

I really think there should be a law that if you are impeached, you need to at LEAST show up at your own hearing. Fine, they have the right not to testify, but shit. The bar for impeachment actually meaning anything has REALLY dropped.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:58 pm I really think there should be a law that if you are impeached, you need to at LEAST show up at your own hearing. Fine, they have the right not to testify, but shit. The bar for impeachment actually meaning anything has REALLY dropped.

The problem isn't in the process. The problem is that the basis for law and order has disintegrated in our country.

Maybe we need more ‘law’ then instead of pleasantries and expectations and assumptions that have been adhered to...until now.

It's also important to note that none of this would be occurring if lawmakers were being held ethically accountable by voters. Ultimately the problem in this country is the radicalization of half the populace by right-wing media.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:13 pm It's also important to note that none of this would be occurring if lawmakers were being held ethically accountable by voters. Ultimately the problem in this country is the radicalization of half the populace by right-wing media.

Yeah, that. The system breaks down when officials flout their oath of office, because the only means to enforce that are (a) widespread agreement among other officials that it matters, and (b) when (a) breaks down, voters have to replace the violators en masse. When (a) and (b) both fail, there's no legal (c). You don't want to invent a (d), but that's where we're apparently headed.

It also doesn't help when they are just effing morons.

It's starting to look like 21st-century reality doesn't meet 18th-century ideals.

You'd think this would be enough but apparently Senator Murkowski felt very convinced by the defense's argument today.

In an expletive-laced phone call with House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy while the Capitol was under attack, then-President Donald Trump said the rioters cared more about the election results than McCarthy did.

"Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are," Trump said, according to lawmakers who were briefed on the call afterward by McCarthy.

McCarthy insisted that the rioters were Trump's supporters and begged Trump to call them off.

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:51 pm It is amazing. The guy is flat out lying. That call has been confirmed. Tuberville told Politico about that call *on the record* last night. It was widely reported and referenced today. He is lying to the Senate because there are no consequences.

Why is this amazing? They have been doing it constantly for months now. Nearly everything out of their mouths is lies at this point because trump showed them that path to power and they gleefully ran down it. To all of our dooms. Goodbye functioning democracy. This time for good?

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:09 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:51 pm It is amazing. The guy is flat out lying. That call has been confirmed. Tuberville told Politico about that call *on the record* last night. It was widely reported and referenced today. He is lying to the Senate because there are no consequences.

Why is this amazing? They have been doing it constantly for months now. Nearly everything out of their mouths is lies at this point because trump showed them that path to power and they gleefully ran down it. To all of our dooms. Goodbye functioning democracy. This time for good?

You'd expect a certain amount of decorum from lawyers even in current circumstances. One of them told them the House Managers should be ashamed. He suggested their citing a legal argument would potentially impact that their law license. He then went on to flat out lie to the Senate. It just is hard to imagine a world where all this happens and everyone just shrugs at it. We're so far into the abyss. That is why I find it amazing.

Good job, BBC!

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:20 pm

Remus West wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:09 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:51 pm It is amazing. The guy is flat out lying. That call has been confirmed. Tuberville told Politico about that call *on the record* last night. It was widely reported and referenced today. He is lying to the Senate because there are no consequences.

Why is this amazing? They have been doing it constantly for months now. Nearly everything out of their mouths is lies at this point because trump showed them that path to power and they gleefully ran down it. To all of our dooms. Goodbye functioning democracy. This time for good?

You'd expect a certain amount of decorum from lawyers even in current circumstances. One of them told them the House Managers should be ashamed. He suggested their citing a legal argument would potentially impact that their law license. He then went on to flat out lie to the Senate. It just is hard to imagine a world where all this happens and everyone just shrugs at it. We're so far into the abyss. That is why I find it amazing.

But let's pause for a moment to consider who Van der Veen is. All joking aside, this is not the guy for this forum. He doesn't belong anywhere near the Senate and an impeachment trial. He's an ambulance chasing personal injury lawyer:

Van der Veen has been an attorney since 1988. He is a founder of the Philadelphia personal injury law firm, Van der Veen, O'Neill, Hartshorn, Levin. His prior litigation practice includes personal injury litigation, including representing plaintiffs in car crashes, motorcycle and bicycle accidents, and dog bites."

Defending the former POTUS, that's not just a reach, it's preposterous.

But, if your girlfriend (or boyfriend) and you get in a fight and you hit her (or him) but you are back together, Van der Veen is definitely your guy to answer important questions about whether she (or he) can just drop the charges.

He's also your guy to answer important questions about whether it will cost you anything to bring a wrongful death case in Pennsylvania.

Kurth wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:33 amDefending the former POTUS, that's not just a reach, it's preposterous.

Yet we have Senators saying they did a great job and they eviscerated the defense. Then we have the McConnell bit below. Preposterous is right but this where we are.



FWIW this is a very strong statement from a Senator. They usually don't talk this way.

In other news, last night Republican Representative Herrera Beutler told a reporter that she had a conversation w/ McCarthy where he said he had a heated argument with Trump as the riot occurred and Trump *sided with the rioters*. The Senate voted to call witnesses and they plan to call her to testify. The House Managers seem to be pulling out the stops here because they know what this moment means.

Sen. Rand Paul and Sen. Ted Cruz are both seen talking to Trump's defense team on the Senate floor after multiple Republicans vote yes on witnesses.

It's like they're not even pretending anymore.

McConnell’s vote to acquit makes him as guilty as Trump. Paul and Cruz are active conspirators. They are afraid of something big.