Octopus Overlords

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:44 pm I suppose I don't fully understand why he's such a controversial candidate. By European standards, he's a centrist!

I'm not sure I agree with that, but this isn't Europe.

Trump will beat him.

The GOP has done an excellent job keeping up high energy to loudly demonize the word socialism and then try to associate every democrat with a socialist agenda to ruin America. The idea that someone would proudly call themselves socialist would definitely generate excitement. Bernie might have had a shot in 2016. I don't see it in 2020. But then I didn't see Trump winning in 2016 either, so what good is my vision?

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:44 pm I suppose I don't fully understand why he's such a controversial candidate. By European standards, he's a centrist!

I'm not sure I agree with that, but this isn't Europe.

Trump will beat him.

Bernie might be able to beat him. Maybe leaning towards Doubtful. A major side effect could be to swing the House back to the GOP and probably negates the narrow path in the Senate for the Democrats.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:17 pm

Paingod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 pm If it's Biden, who's his second? I don't see Sanders accepting second-fiddle to anyone.

He'll want someone who:

(1) is not a white male
(2) is younger
(3) can help him shore up his left flank while not losing too many moderates.

Actually though he is a white male, Sherrod Brown might be a good fit, although that would bork the Democrats in the Senate. I could see Booker, though I'm not sure how much he would help on the left flank. Warren could fit the bill, although she's not that much younger.

I would kill to see Biden go with Justin Amash. The amount of teeth gnashing that would cause in the Trump world would be fantastic.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:16 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:17 pm

Paingod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 pm If it's Biden, who's his second? I don't see Sanders accepting second-fiddle to anyone.

He'll want someone who:

(1) is not a white male
(2) is younger
(3) can help him shore up his left flank while not losing too many moderates.

Actually though he is a white male, Sherrod Brown might be a good fit, although that would bork the Democrats in the Senate. I could see Booker, though I'm not sure how much he would help on the left flank. Warren could fit the bill, although she's not that much younger.

I would kill to see Biden go with Justin Amash. The amount of teeth gnashing that would cause in the Trump world would be fantastic.

It would also cause an atomic bomb to go off in the Democratic Party, given that Amash is still very much a conservative, just not a Trumpian. He was a founder of the Freedom Caucus, after all. Amash would collapse Biden's support among the left while probably only picking up a trivial number of Republican leaning voters.

I never honestly thought Amash would get the job, I was just saying I thought it would be hilarious because of how much it would irritate Trump.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:22 pm I never honestly thought Amash would get the job, I was just saying I thought it would be hilarious because of how much it would irritate Trump.

Well, the thing is that I'm not sure that it would irritate him, given how much it would boost his reelection chances. There are better choices even if the primary goal is to irritate Trump.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:25 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:22 pm I never honestly thought Amash would get the job, I was just saying I thought it would be hilarious because of how much it would irritate Trump.

Well, the thing is that I'm not sure that it would irritate him

Sorry, perhaps you weren't aware that I was talking about freaking Donald J. Trump. If the wind says "Mariah" instead of "Trump" he gets irritated.

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:26 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:25 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:22 pm I never honestly thought Amash would get the job, I was just saying I thought it would be hilarious because of how much it would irritate Trump.

Well, the thing is that I'm not sure that it would irritate him

Sorry, perhaps you weren't aware that I was talking about freaking Donald J. Trump. If the wind says "Mariah" instead of "Trump" he gets irritated.

I'm just saying, VP nominee Tiffany Trump would be a much better way to drive him bonkers.

Ooooh...I like where your head is at. Please add me to your newsletter.

I actually chuckled at that.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:21 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:16 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:17 pm

Paingod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 pm If it's Biden, who's his second? I don't see Sanders accepting second-fiddle to anyone.

He'll want someone who:

(1) is not a white male
(2) is younger
(3) can help him shore up his left flank while not losing too many moderates.

Actually though he is a white male, Sherrod Brown might be a good fit, although that would bork the Democrats in the Senate. I could see Booker, though I'm not sure how much he would help on the left flank. Warren could fit the bill, although she's not that much younger.

I would kill to see Biden go with Justin Amash. The amount of teeth gnashing that would cause in the Trump world would be fantastic.

It would also cause an atomic bomb to go off in the Democratic Party, given that Amash is still very much a conservative, just not a Trumpian. He was a founder of the Freedom Caucus, after all. Amash would collapse Biden's support among the left while probably only picking up a trivial number of Republican leaning voters.

Hasn't Biden already floated picking a Republican for his VP nominee if he somehow wins the Democratic nomination?

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:53 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:21 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:16 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:17 pm

Paingod wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 pm If it's Biden, who's his second? I don't see Sanders accepting second-fiddle to anyone.

He'll want someone who:

(1) is not a white male
(2) is younger
(3) can help him shore up his left flank while not losing too many moderates.

Actually though he is a white male, Sherrod Brown might be a good fit, although that would bork the Democrats in the Senate. I could see Booker, though I'm not sure how much he would help on the left flank. Warren could fit the bill, although she's not that much younger.

I would kill to see Biden go with Justin Amash. The amount of teeth gnashing that would cause in the Trump world would be fantastic.

It would also cause an atomic bomb to go off in the Democratic Party, given that Amash is still very much a conservative, just not a Trumpian. He was a founder of the Freedom Caucus, after all. Amash would collapse Biden's support among the left while probably only picking up a trivial number of Republican leaning voters.

Hasn't Biden already floated picking a Republican for his VP nominee if he somehow wins the Democratic nomination?

Yeah, but it was like "yeah, I would consider one, but I can't think of any that I'd pick". Caused a stir, but I think it was more "yeah in theory but not in practice".

If he were to consider a Republican, it would have to be a "I used to be a Republican but now I've seen the light and now support the Democratic Party" type thing.

Sen. Elizabeth Warren said late Monday that Sen. Bernie Sanders had told her he didn't think a woman could win the 2020 election — a statement the Sanders campaign had blasted as "a lie" earlier in the day.

"Bernie and I met for more than two hours in December 2018 to discuss the 2020 election, our past work together and our shared goals," the Massachusetts senator said in a statement. "Among the topics that came up was what would happen if Democrats nominated a female candidate. I thought a woman could win; he disagreed," she said.

The statement confirmed a report on the 2018 meeting on CNN earlier in the day Sanders and his campaign vigorously disputed.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-e ... l-n1114706

Bullshit like this is why I do not like Bernie. Saying you will “not be a capitalist” is smoke and mirrors. You’re giving Trump a debate he can win — businessman vs. socialist.

Warren is the closest home for a Bernie follower, but I really do expect many of them to burn down the Democratic tent if Bernie doesn’t win. Of course Bernie should do well in caucuses — it fits his activist base. The test if whether Bernie has broad strength outside of Iowa and New Hampshire.

Me from page one of this thread:

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:54 am Warren/Franken. Yes please.

Not sure I disagree with myself at all today.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:44 pm
I suppose I don't fully understand why he's such a controversial candidate. By European standards, he's a centrist!

It's not merely about ideology (though that's part of it). (I'm also not sure I would call him centrist by European standards - for example, Single Payer while abolishing private insurance goes well beyond what most of Europe has.) Here are some of the issues I have with him:

There's his priorities and his running a populist campaign. He's weak at building bridges and building relationships (be it across the aisle, with Democrats or with community leaders). Despite Democrats being a very big tent party composed of different groups who's views and priorities differ, but who are stronger together and settling their differences, he comes off as condescending and lecturing and "my way or the highway", which is going to alienate Democrats (like me). He's frequently attacking the Democratic party as a whole. He doesn't show pragmatism, and he doesn't seem to be willing to support moderates (for that matter, he doesn't always do a great job supporting progressives). Every issue for him is filtered through his "economics is everything" lens. He sometimes takes simplistic views on things, even if the issue requires a more complex understanding. He also gave a pretty bad interview with the editorial board of a newspaper last time that showed me that he lacked competency in foreign policy. He also, stupidly, calls himself a "Democratic Socialist" when it's pretty clear, by his stances, that he's a Social Democrat. Not only is it inaccurate, but more importantly, it leaves him extremely vulnerable to attacks that he's a socialist. His running would also result in many Democrats in the House and Senate running *away* from him.

Warren makes a lot more sense as a candidate with a similar ideology.

I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: Corey Booker dropped out. I guess he ranked high as people's 2nd or 3rd choice, which doesn't bring the contributions flooding in.

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:43 am I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: Corey Booker dropped out. I guess he ranked high as people's 2nd or 3rd choice, which doesn't bring the contributions flooding in.

So that narrows it down to either an old White guy career politician or an old White woman career politician.
That's the change we need!!!

Well we're currently seeing what NOT having a career politician gets us.

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:30 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:43 am I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: Corey Booker dropped out. I guess he ranked high as people's 2nd or 3rd choice, which doesn't bring the contributions flooding in.

So that narrows it down to either an old White guy career politician or an old White woman career politician.
That's the change we need!!!

I know when I go to a garage to get my car fixed, the first thing I look for is the first person who ISN'T an auto mechanic! I want change!

Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:36 am

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:44 pm
I suppose I don't fully understand why he's such a controversial candidate. By European standards, he's a centrist!

Despite Democrats being a very big tent party composed of different groups who's views and priorities differ, but who are stronger together and settling their differences, he comes off as condescending and lecturing and "my way or the highway", which is going to alienate Democrats (like me). He's frequently attacking the Democratic party as a whole.

His conspiracy theories and anti-Clinton rhetoric very possibly got us Trump.

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:30 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:43 am I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: Corey Booker dropped out. I guess he ranked high as people's 2nd or 3rd choice, which doesn't bring the contributions flooding in.

So that narrows it down to either an old White guy career politician or an old White woman career politician.
That's the change we need!!!

I know when I go to a garage to get my car fixed, the first thing I look for is the first person who ISN'T an auto mechanic! I want change!

If your mechanic sucks as bad as most politicians do and yet you still go to him, it becomes a you problem, not a him problem.
And I just love the comparison.......most politicians and auto mechanics are crooks.

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:30 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:43 am I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: Corey Booker dropped out. I guess he ranked high as people's 2nd or 3rd choice, which doesn't bring the contributions flooding in.

So that narrows it down to either an old White guy career politician or an old White woman career politician.
That's the change we need!!!

Given what we're changing from, I'd welcome it. Hell, whoever wins (assuming they do) will be spending so much time undoing damage that I'll be amazed if we can get back to 2015 'normal' before their term is up, let alone make new progress.

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:36 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:30 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:43 am I didn't see it mentioned anywhere: Corey Booker dropped out. I guess he ranked high as people's 2nd or 3rd choice, which doesn't bring the contributions flooding in.

So that narrows it down to either an old White guy career politician or an old White woman career politician.
That's the change we need!!!

I know when I go to a garage to get my car fixed, the first thing I look for is the first person who ISN'T an auto mechanic! I want change!

If your mechanic sucks as bad as most politicians do and yet you still go to him, it becomes a you problem, not a him problem.
And I just love the comparison.......most politicians and auto mechanics are crooks.

And everyone who spends time on internet forums are overweight losers, everyone who likes science fiction can't get a girlfriend, blondes are dumb, italian people talk with their hands, everyone who owns a gun secretly wants to kill someone....I get it, stereotypes are easy.

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:07 pm And everyone who spends time on internet forums are overweight losers, everyone who likes science fiction can't get a girlfriend, blondes are dumb,

You pull no punches.

So science fiction fans should go exclusively for blondes?

No, my point was that auto mechanics should never use the internet to watch Deep Space Nine.

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:38 pm No, my point was that auto mechanics should never use the internet to watch Deep Space Nine.

They should watch it any way they can, and learn from the best engineer in the Alpha Quadrant.

Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:26 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:38 pm No, my point was that auto mechanics should never use the internet to watch Deep Space Nine.

They should watch it any way they can, and learn from the best engineer in the Alpha Quadrant.

And learn the value of self sealing stem bolts.

My prediction is Biden/Harris or Biden/Warren, but probably the former. If they have an old white guy at the top, they need a POC in the second slot.

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:39 pm My prediction is Biden/Harris or Biden/Warren, but probably the former. If they have an old white guy at the top, they need a POC in the second slot.

I tend to agree but Biden/Harris is going to be a tough pill for the Bernie Bros and she has some baggage. Perhaps Biden/Booker. Booker was a lot of folks number 2 or 3.

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:39 pm My prediction is Biden/Harris or Biden/Warren, but probably the former. If they have an old white guy at the top, they need a POC in the second slot.

I think the top-tier POC Veep choice right now is Stacey Abrams.

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:39 pm My prediction is Biden/Harris or Biden/Warren, but probably the former. If they have an old white guy at the top, they need a POC in the second slot.

I think the top-tier POC Veep choice right now is Stacey Abrams.

This makes sense too. Jersey ain't voting for Trump. I actually suspect Van Drew might get dumped into the Great Egg Harbor River even though he went 'dark side'.

Defiant wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:18 pm

Fair enough, if Trump suspends his presidency while he's on trial.

I found this tweet and the underlying information very enlightening re: Bernie/Warren:

If you want to know how a senator will govern as president, it's important to look at how he or she governs as a senator.

GovTrack keeps records of politicians, giving Americans insight into how politician work.

Warren and Sanders work differently.

Here's the underlying data/site:

Laws Enacted
The number of bills each legislator introduced that became law in the 115th Congress, including via incorporation into other bills. Keep in mind that it takes a law to repeal a law. Very few bills ever become law.

Warren - 5 Bills on which she was a Lead became law (tied for 4th among D Senators)
Sanders - 0 Bills.

I don't think Sanders works well with others. Getting AOC's endorsement in the House really, really helps, but still, this is pretty damning (especially after his extremely strong run in '16), and would bode ill for a Sanders Presidency.

Interestingly enough, Klobuchar is 3rd with 7, but Warren is considered extreme left wing, while Amy is a "moderate".

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:16 pm

Laws Enacted
The number of bills each legislator introduced that became law in the 115th Congress, including via incorporation into other bills. Keep in mind that it takes a law to repeal a law. Very few bills ever become law.

Warren - 5 Bills on which she was a Lead became law (tied for 4th among D Senators)
Sanders - 0 Bills.

Pshaw. Laws are hard. Revolution is easy.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:16 pm but Warren is considered extreme left wing

lol

I remembered Klobuchar having a lot better performance than pretty much all the other senatorial candidates, although that's when looking over the lifetime:

Klobuchar: 34 bills over 13 years
Warren: 9 bills in 7 years
Biden: 42 bills over 36 years
Bennet: 10 bills over 11 years
Sanders: 7 bills in 13 years

Possibly the oddest meme a campaign has put out.