Shutdown

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:04 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Fireball1244 wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:Exactly. Hurry up and compromise on this so we can get what we want and begin machinations for our next planned shutdown in November. F them.
Not to be partisan, but this is precisely why Senate Democrats have been asking for a conference committee on the budget since May.
Isn't there a room somewhere in the Capitol with Eric Cantor and his cronies sitting at a half empty table for a photo-op over how the Democrats won't compromise (you can't compromise when only one side wants something)?

Show up and start talking about a real budget, and see what the GOP does.

Except that they can't. That's a conference on the continuing resolution. To meet with it would be to guarantee that the CR wouldn't pass "clean." To have a conference on the budget, the House has to accept one of the Senate's 18 requests for a conference on a budget. Conference committees are only allowed to discuss the bills that are on the call to conference -- and, specifically, only the differences between them. They aren't general conferences that can discuss anything they want.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:08 pm

I wasn't suggesting that they show up to talk, I was suggesting to crash their photo op with an equally obvious photo op showing the stupidity of their photo op. Like pop your head in the door with the cameras rolling and ask if this is the conference room for the budget conference we requested 5 months before the request came in for the "talks" on the GOPs hostage negotiations.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:16 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:I wasn't suggesting that they show up to talk, I was suggesting to crash their photo op with an equally obvious photo op showing the stupidity of their photo op. Like pop your head in the door with the cameras rolling and ask if this is the conference room for the budget conference we requested 5 months before the request came in for the "talks" on the GOPs hostage negotiations.

That would be funny.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:44 pm

Here's a thought. If the Affordable Care Act is as bad as the Repubs are saying it is, why dont they just let it play out? If it is the train wreck they are making it out to be, wouldnt they have a great platform for the 2014 elections? What do they have to gain by being so bull headed about it AFTER it has passed as law? Nothing. It makes them look petty and stubborn. Let the Dems who supported it, and all those that passed it into law, deal with the consequences if it sucks the way they say it will.

Isnt the Repubs rally cry too much government, smaller government, government too involved in the public lives?

Yet....here they are. Acting like spoiled brats who are gonna take their government and go home because they didnt get their way.
Do they think we arent smart enough to decide for ourselves whether ACA works or not? Isnt it against their own ideaology to get so involved in a decision that should be the publics?

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:19 pm

stimpy wrote:Here's a thought. If the Affordable Care Act is as bad as the Repubs are saying it is, why dont they just let it play out? If it is the train wreck they are making it out to be, wouldnt they have a great platform for the 2014 elections? What do they have to gain by being so bull headed about it AFTER it has passed as law? Nothing. It makes them look petty and stubborn. Let the Dems who supported it, and all those that passed it into law, deal with the consequences if it sucks the way they say it will.

Isnt the Repubs rally cry too much government, smaller government, government too involved in the public lives?

Yet....here they are. Acting like spoiled brats who are gonna take their government and go home because they didnt get their way.
Do they think we arent smart enough to decide for ourselves whether ACA works or not? Isnt it against their own ideaology to get so involved in a decision that should be the publics?

Because they said the same thing about Medicare (go find the Reagan quote from the sixties), and now their base is all about "don't mess with my Medicare"...

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:49 am

Sticks head in.

Yeah...figured you guys would be mid-orgy blaming the GOP.

Steps back out.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:25 am

msduncan wrote:Sticks head in.

Yeah...figured you guys most of the country would be mid-orgy blaming the GOP.

Steps back out.

FTFY

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:25 am

msduncan wrote:Sticks head in.

Yeah...figured you guys would be mid-orgy blaming the GOP.

Steps back out.

You're not a fan of orgies?

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:22 am

YellowKing wrote:Back when Obama was telling the Republicans to get in the back seat and Pelosi was strutting around like a prize rooster.

*cut to an Arrested Development black screen with "footage not found" subtitle*

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:28 am

msduncan wrote:Sticks head in.

Yeah...figured you guys would be mid-orgy blaming the GOP.

Steps back out.

See? It's obvious even to msduncan who is at fault here!

McBa1n · Post by **McBa1n** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:53 am

Jon Stewart has been amusing in regards to the shutdown.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:13 am

msduncan wrote:Sticks head in.

Yeah...figured you guys would be mid-orgy blaming the GOP.

Steps back out.

I don't understand why you can't ever be reasonable and honest about anything political. The GOP is being blamed because the GOP came out and said that they would tie the CR to defunding/delaying ObamaCare. When one side threatens to do X if the other side doesn't do Y, and the other side doesn't do Y - it's not their fault that X happens. That's the fault of the side that threatened to do X.

And you can't even reasonably complain that the other side isn't compromising. The GOP wants to defund/delay ObamaCare. The Dems don't want anything. What is there to negotiate over?

Should the Dems defund/delay part of ObamaCare simply because the GOP has threatened to (and carried out their threat) shutdown the government? Does that actually make sense to you?

The Dems already caved on the scope of the continuing resolution. Why should they cave more? Because you want them to?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:45 am

GOP rhetoric on the ACA has really trapped them in a corner: it's not just a flawed solution, it's "death panels" and "socialized medicine;" it's not just something they'd like to reign in, it's an "existential threat to the United States." Once you start playing that game and allowing the most radical voices in the party and the media set the terms of the discussion, how can you possibly walk it back?

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:52 am

Polls tell a different story. Both parties and the President are being blamed. In addition, poll numbers from previous shutdowns show that the political impacts of these do not extend to and impact elections.

/pours another cup of shutdown coffee
/kicks legs up and enjoys the show

Stick to your guns guys.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:14 am

Even the GOP knows this is going to harm their status in the public eye. Every poll out there already shows more people blaming the repubs. If they stick to their guns, they'll lose a lot more than face.

/Kicks up feet. Watches GOP crash and burn.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:14 am

The most recent poll I saw (today) shows 50% blaming Congressional Republicans, 29% blaming President Obama and 11% blaming Congressional Democrats (woo hoo! we win!).

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:17 am

msduncan wrote:Polls tell a different story.

I'm sure a lot of delusional republicans think that this is all Obama's fault.

Also, I can assume from your tone that your wife wasn't furloughed this time. Because the last time, when this stupidity actually affected you personally, you threw a tantrum

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:22 am

Especially since they have a legitimate way of ending ObamaCare, especially if as many people agree with them as they say.

Simply convince those people to vote for them, take control of congress, and repeal it. Not only does it not shut down the country and make us a laughing stock, it is legal and works within the framework of democracy rather than by sabotaging the results of democracy that they don't personally agree with.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:46 am

msduncan wrote:Polls tell a different story. Both parties and the President are being blamed. In addition, poll numbers from previous shutdowns show that the political impacts of these do not extend to and impact elections.

/pours another cup of shutdown coffee
/kicks legs up and enjoys the show

Stick to your guns guys.

I figured after the election you would have found some more reliable polls.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:57 am

Alefroth wrote:I figured after the election you would have found some more reliable polls.

Why? It is comforting to hear what you want to hear. Also you get to complain about how it isn't fair when reality crashes back in.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:13 pm

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:25 pm

It's up to Boehner at this point, and I don't think he will act until pressure from enough House Rs outweighs that of the fringe element, or he decides to show some bipartisan leadership. I doubt that will happen until we get close to the debt ceiling deadline. It makes political sense to do both at the same time so that Boehner only takes his lumps once instead of twice. Then again, the CR is only to fund the government for 6 weeks or so, at the sequester levels.

In the meantime, overflowing trash cans on the Mall should provide some new photo ops, and the taxpayers will be paying Fed employees not to work.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:44 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
msduncan wrote:Polls tell a different story.
I'm sure a lot of delusional republicans think that this is all Obama's fault.

Also, I can assume from your tone that your wife wasn't furloughed this time. Because the last time, when this stupidity actually affected you personally, you threw a tantrum

Well, that would fit with what seems to be the overarching narrative of the GOP: "I got mine, so fuck you".

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:20 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:
msduncan wrote:Polls tell a different story.
I'm sure a lot of delusional republicans think that this is all Obama's fault.

Also, I can assume from your tone that your wife wasn't furloughed this time. Because the last time, when this stupidity actually affected you personally, you threw a tantrum
Well, that would fit with what seems to be the overarching narrative of the GOP: "I got mine, so fuck you".

Captain Caveman · Post by **Captain Caveman** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:10 pm

Holman wrote:GOP rhetoric on the ACA has really trapped them in a corner: it's not just a flawed solution, it's "death panels" and "socialized medicine;" it's not just something they'd like to reign in, it's an "existential threat to the United States." Once you start playing that game and allowing the most radical voices in the party and the media set the terms of the discussion, how can you possibly walk it back?

Plus, if they fail to prevent the implementation of the ACA, they risk being exposed for the hyperbolic demagogues that they are once the death panels never materialize. I mean, really, if the ACA is actually the 'Merica destroyer they claim, we'll know soon enough and the Democrats won't win another election for a generation. They should be eager to be proven right.

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:45 pm

Despite your earnest desires, and your gleeful, drooling, spit gnashing optimism that the Republicans will suffer for this shutdown that Obama is trying to make as bad as he possibly can....

Saying that it's going to be awesome for democrats and horrible for republicans doesn't make it true

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:22 pm

Just look at those stratospheric Congressional approval ratings! The good old days of 30%!!

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:57 pm

msduncan wrote:Despite your earnest desires, and your gleeful, drooling, spit gnashing optimism that the Republicans will suffer for this shutdown that Obama is trying to make as bad as he possibly can....

Saying that it's going to be awesome for democrats and horrible for republicans doesn't make it true

From your own link:

But Americans are slightly more likely to see President Obama as acting more responsibly than the Republican leaders in Congress in handling the budget negotiations. Thus, Obama -- like Clinton -- may end up unscathed after the shutdown ends.

Speaker of the House John Boehner is in a potentially more precarious position. His favorable rating slid down to 31% in April, the last time Gallup asked about him. And Boehner is facing pressure not only from the left, but also from his own party on the right -- to not give in on addressing the healthcare law.

Seems like, for this D and that R, it actually IS true.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:03 pm

The comparison is of limited value because Gallup's statement that "the Republican leaders in Congress and President Barack Obama have failed to agree on a budget to keep the government funded" is only technically true, whereas it was literally true in '95. The tea party's demand to de-fund or delay Obamacare is not a budget dispute.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:09 pm

Also, so far we do not have a disagreement between Obama and Congress, but between the House and the Senate. Obama has signed everything the Congress has sent him regarding this shutdown.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:11 pm

Hey, slow down. Let's not bring logic into this. We need President Obama to force the issue with Patriot Act infused powers so that we can get back to complaining about his totalitarian regime and our descent into European bourgeoisie society.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:50 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
Well, that would fit with what seems to be the overarching narrative of the GOP: "I got mine, so fuck you".

Isn't that pretty much plank one in the platform?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:14 pm

Eager to exploit divisions among Republicans, Democrats have hammered the message that the U.S. government shutdown is the work of a small segment of House of Representatives Republicans on the far right.
In fact, support for the tactic that led to the shutdown - now in its fourth day - has proven to be far more solid and widespread among House Republicans than the Democratic portrayal.
That is because the far right, after the 2010 and 2012 congressional elections, is not a small segment at all - it represents probably 69 percent of the House Republican caucus.

Democrats have consistently said that Obamacare is non-negotiable and House Speaker John Boehner opposed the hardline in his own party, fearing a shutdown. But Boehner was not just outnumbered by his caucus in the House; he was overwhelmed.

While there has been talk of revolts from moderate Republicans, no more than 12 to 14 members have been willing to publicly dissent from the party's approach.
One of those moderates, Peter King of New York, said House Republicans have relented in part because a majority of party lawmakers "think they are winning" the fight. King and others have been trying to lead a revolt but it has received little support.

The broad Republican support for a hardline strategy may be even more consequential as the October 17 deadline to raise the government debt ceiling approaches. Many Tea Party Republicans are loath to vote for any debt ceiling increase unless it is tied to a requirement to balance the budget with no tax increase - something Democrats oppose.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/shutdown- ... 24023.html

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:58 pm

That's fantastic. The lunatic fringe is larger that anticipated!

Wheee?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:22 pm

...and now for a comedy break, courtesy of a member of the voting public in Idaho:

“I don’t think that the government should be involved in health care or health insurance,” says Greg Collett, a 41-year-old software developer in Caldwell, Idaho, who would rather pay the fine for now -- $95 the first year -- than signup.

“I calculated it out and it is cheaper for me for the next four years to pay the fine rather than get coverage,” Collett said. “At some point where it would make financial sense to pay for insurance rather than pay fines, I will make the decision from a financial standpoint.”

wait for it....

Collett, who is married and has 10 children, says the kids are covered by Medicaid, the joint state-federal health insurance plan for people with low income and children who are not covered.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Does he know that free condoms are available even without Obamacare?

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:53 am

Smoove_B wrote:...and now for a comedy break, courtesy of a member of the voting public in Idaho:

“I don’t think that the government should be involved in health care or health insurance,” says Greg Collett, a 41-year-old software developer in Caldwell, Idaho, who would rather pay the fine for now -- $95 the first year -- than signup.

“I calculated it out and it is cheaper for me for the next four years to pay the fine rather than get coverage,” Collett said. “At some point where it would make financial sense to pay for insurance rather than pay fines, I will make the decision from a financial standpoint.”
wait for it....

Collett, who is married and has 10 children, says the kids are covered by Medicaid, the joint state-federal health insurance plan for people with low income and children who are not covered.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:23 am

msduncan wrote:Polls tell a different story. Both parties and the President are being blamed. In addition, poll numbers from previous shutdowns show that the political impacts of these do not extend to and impact elections.

/pours another cup of shutdown coffee
/kicks legs up and enjoys the show

Stick to your guns guys.

Were those the same polls saying that Romney was going to win the election? It's probably a good idea to avoid polls that are just trying to tell you what you want to hear.

Canuck · Post by **Canuck** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:27 am

msduncan wrote:Despite your earnest desires, and your gleeful, drooling, spit gnashing optimism that the Republicans will suffer for this shutdown that Obama is trying to make as bad as he possibly can....

Saying that it's going to be awesome for democrats and horrible for republicans doesn't make it true

LOL I can't believe you actually linked to Gallup! I was just sorta joking in that first post.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Make sure you hold on to something while reading this article because the spin is unreal.

Speaker John Boehner said Sunday that the House of Representatives will not pass bills to re-open the federal government or raise the debt limit unless President Barack Obama comes to the negotiating table.

...

Boehner said that there aren't enough members in the Republican-led House to simply re-open the government with no other strings attached.

"There are not votes in the House to pass a clean (continuing resolution)," Boehner said.

But Democrats immediately called that claim false, arguing that 195 Democrats and 21 Republicans are ready to vote for that bill.

...

Boehner said Obama must be willing to negotiate over the debt ceiling -- which he has said he will not do.

"His refusal to negotiate is putting our country at risk," he said. "The debt limit is right around the corner. The president is saying, I won’t negotiate, I won’t have a conversation.

You have to at least give him some points for trying to pin it on Obama. I'm guessing some people will fall for it.

To summarize, legislation approved by Congress four years ago, signed by the President and upheld by the Supreme Court...needs to enter negotiations.