Star Wars: The Old Republic

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:59 pm

The discussion is relevant, but I have to imagine most people just don't care. What would your impression of the game's enjoyability be if you had no prior knowledge of the setting? That's what's going to decide whether or not I play, and whether I play at launch.

Balance between player characters is paramount in MMORPGs. It's the reason MMOGs can't take the place of single player games. In an MMOG, you can't be unique. Going in, I don't think players expect to be. Games strive to maintain an illusion of comparative advancement and specialness, but if you've played a traditional MMORPG to max level, you can see right through it. Either you're adapting an MMO world to the established genres of twitch or strategy-based gameplay, or you're a classic MMORPG and it's all about /time played.

While I didn't play Galaxies, the original jedi concept intrigued me. But it didn't sound particularly fun. I'm all for MMORPG innovation, though. But what should it cost to be rare or elite in a MMOG? Time? Money? I can't think of any other methods, save for chance. How about that? Roll a die, unlock a jedi? Just sounds like another recipe for player base frustration.

I'd rather developers put more effort into customization options. Let's accept that all players are on equal footing, but give them a bazillion ways to be cosmetically different, for starters. Let every game have Cryptic-style character creation, only ramp it up and add even more options available as drops, unlockables, and craftables. The same for spell effects and animations. Yeah, it'll cost a fortune. But these games already cost a fortune.

Apply the same to gameplay, as is feasible. Vary the way the classes play as much as possible. Give as many options as possible within the classes. Of course, the more options you have, the harder balance is to achieve. But developers are already latching onto and exploring this philosophy.

TOR is one of the few MMOG universes I'll have significant prior knowledge of before I start playing. As is obvious, this is a blessing and a curse. But to be honest, the expanded universe of Star Wars is already so vast and watered down that I can't imagine being bothered by this game's sterilizations. It has to succeed on its own merits. Anyone over the age of 16 should by now have gathered "Star Wars" is, in this case, nothing more than a coat of paint on MMORPG rehash and, hopefully, refinement.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:04 pm

Zurai wrote:The Old Republic would have been 10 times as fun if the four base classes were Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder, Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut, Jedi Sage/Sith Inquisitor, and Jedi Shadow/Sith Assassin. Or, alternately, if they'd been the non-Force-sensitive classes exclusively.

I buy that. It seems like it would have made it a more cohesive product. But, of course, they want to give everything to everyone. And I'm sure there are enough references and sticks-and-carrots to achieve whatever sales goals they've set for themselves, regardless. And I expect most of their customers will be pleased enough, for a time. In only our most desperate, self-deluding hopes was this MMORPG 2.0.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:10 pm

Sudy Nym wrote: In only our most desperate, self-deluding hopes was this MMORPG 2.0.

If there was anyone that could have made a MMORPG 2.0, my money would have been on BioWare. But if this is just a re-skinned WoW, then the only thing that will draw people to play is the Star Wars license. I say this is someone that thoroughly enjoyed the HELL out of Star Wars Galaxies specifically because the Jedi were so rare and ridiculously powered. I can appreciate that you want to draw people in to play as a Jedi (or Sith), but I 100% agree that mixing them in with non-Jedi character options to the point that everyone is equally powered really doesn't make sense - no matter how elite those regular characters are.

I say this as someone not in the beta, only as a person reading and watching preview videos.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:58 pm

Sudy Nym wrote:
Zurai wrote:The Old Republic would have been 10 times as fun if the four base classes were Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder, Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut, Jedi Sage/Sith Inquisitor, and Jedi Shadow/Sith Assassin. Or, alternately, if they'd been the non-Force-sensitive classes exclusively.
I buy that. It seems like it would have made it a more cohesive product. But, of course, they want to give everything to everyone. And I'm sure there are enough references and sticks-and-carrots to achieve whatever sales goals they've set for themselves, regardless. And I expect most of their customers will be pleased enough, for a time. In only our most desperate, self-deluding hopes was this MMORPG 2.0.

Oh, sure. There's no way TOR won't be a hit at release. It'll make a profit. I just think their basic design tries to please everyone, and that, as everyone knows, is a recipe for long-term failure. They wanted to let people play both Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, and they wanted WoW-style raids and PvP. The combination of the three means that they've over-extended their design. They could have done both WoW-style raids and PvP with exclusively Force-users or exclusively non-Force users (although I contend that trying to balance both PvP and PvE with the exact same rules is ultimately more trouble than it's worth), or could have mixed both if they didn't have to worry as much about inter-class balance, but trying to do everything is just going to water the feel of the setting down too much. IMO.

In a game where the setting isn't both already defined and the major selling point, that wouldn't be a problem. In a Star Wars game, it's going to cause long-term subscription loss.

ibdoomed · Post by **ibdoomed** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:44 am

For months and months I've been telling myself, there's just no way this is going to succeed. But every day, I sit here and feel like I need to pre-order it. It will be a fiasco, it won't be playable for weeks, it's ruining the entire holiday season for those poor devs and the publisher doesn't care, and I won't enjoy it.

I really don't want to buy it.

It calls to me.

Help me Zurai, you're my only hope.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:50 am

Ubdoomed.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:37 pm

What are you looking for in The Old Republic?

What you're likely to get at this point is WoW with higher presentation values (improved graphics, fully voice acted) and a Star Wars paint job, but with much less variety and customization (only 4 classes in the entire game).

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:02 pm

I'm probably going to try it because I'm an MMO whore who opens my wallet for any shiny new game I see.

However, I'm not expecting an MMO I'll play for months on end. If it holds my attention long enough to get 100 hours of gameplay out of it, I'll be happy. I'll probably wind up playing it as a successor to the KOTOR series, and I'll probably solo my way through most of it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:17 pm

I'm vaguely interested in the game, but I have no intention of trying it any time soon. We'll see down the road, but I'm not paying full price at release just because I'm curious.

WarPanda · Post by **WarPanda** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 pm

Four classes with three distinct tech trees, where some of the classes share a single tree. So yes four classes, but with lots of options for customization. If anything it is closer to Rift. Rift has only four classes, but with the customization it is amazing how many different ways you can go in that game. Star Wars does not appear to be that far involved as Rift yet, but we still have two months to go.

I think from an MMO stand point it looks pretty good, and according to the people I know who are playing it, its really good.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:27 pm

WarPanda wrote:If anything it is closer to Rift.

No, it isn't. That's not even remotely close to a valid comparison.

<edited to remove potentially NDA-breaking material>

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:56 pm

I would just like to say I pre ordered. I loved KOTOR. I am a Star Wars fan. I love Sci-Fi. I will play this game like the fist of an angry god. I will love it. I can feel it. No worries from me. MMOs take time to grow. It will be good when it comes out. It will only get better.

Bring it!

Debris · Post by **Debris** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:03 pm

I'm not looking for the next big thing in MMO's. All I want is an enjoyable game that will hold my interest for 1-2 months. That's really my only criteria. Oh yeah, it also has to be better than Vanguard. Let's hope that's a given.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:24 pm

Debris wrote:I'm not looking for the next big thing in MMO's. All I want is an enjoyable game that will hold my interest for 1-2 months. That's really my only criteria. Oh yeah, it also has to be better than Vanguard. Let's hope that's a given.

TOR should meet, maybe even exceed, your needs then. Just the story content is worth at least that much time.

WarPanda · Post by **WarPanda** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:49 pm

Why do you say that Zurai? Are you playing in the beta? Please explain your statement.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:20 pm

WarPanda wrote:Why do you say that Zurai? Are you playing in the beta? Please explain your statement.

Bioware has said that one way to think of SWTOR is to think of it an an online single player RPG. It's going to have a lot of story driven content and a person could play this as a SP game if that's what they want to do.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:44 pm

I think WarPanda is referring to my denouncement of his earlier post.

Yes, I'm in the beta. I originally did explain my statement in that post, but decided after reading through it that it was a little too far towards breaking my NDA.

Let me put it this way:

In Rift, your character's active abilities are 100% determined by where you place your talent points, and you have complete choice over which talent trees are available to you within your "base class" (which has no other effect on the game than to determine talent tree availability, really). That's why it's so customizable--you can, effectively, create your own class and power set. It's actually much more like Champions Online than any other MMO in that regard.

None of those statements are true for TOR.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:21 pm

Bioware has said that one way to think of SWTOR is to think of it an an online single player RPG.

In other words, like every other MMO since World of Warcraft.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:36 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Bioware has said that one way to think of SWTOR is to think of it an an online single player RPG.
In other words, like every other MMO since World of Warcraft.

No, not at all. Everquest and every other MMO in that vein could be described as single player MMOs in quite a few respects, but NOT normal RPGs in the non-MMO sense of the acronym.

TOR isn't quite there either, but it's much closer to it.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:50 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Bioware has said that one way to think of SWTOR is to think of it an an online single player RPG.
In other words, like every other MMO since World of Warcraft.

No, I don't think so. I don't think most MMO's have strong story based gameplay. At least nothing like a SP RPG.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:04 pm

Got my beta invite...I think. It may just be for this coming weekend. But at least I get to try it out.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:57 pm

If I'm correct you don't get to choose your companion character. I see you can customize their looks though. But wouldn't it be nice if Bioware made a large collection of companion characters and say allowed each class a choice between 3 different ones?

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:59 pm

Daehawk wrote:If I'm correct you don't get to choose your companion character. I see you can customize their looks though. But wouldn't it be nice if Bioware made a large collection of companion characters and say allowed each class a choice between 3 different ones?

Or maybe 5?

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:59 pm

Daehawk wrote:If I'm correct you don't get to choose your companion character. I see you can customize their looks though. But wouldn't it be nice if Bioware made a large collection of companion characters and say allowed each class a choice between 3 different ones?

You're not correct and they do. You'll have multiple companions / crew members for each character class.

- Ash

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:01 pm

Can you link me up with companion info / who they are?

this is the video I was watching. http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/com ... characters" target="_blank

SIDE NOTE: I MUST HAVE BLIZZ as a companion. Blizz the Jawa. Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:02 pm

Daehawk wrote:Can you link me up with companion info / who they are?

No. They haven't announced them. But per this post (seriously, Googling this took three seconds), Zurai is correct that the current number of companions is five per class (I imagine he was trying to be coy in case it was non-revealed information).

- Ash

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:05 pm

Anyone decided on the color of their weapons fire..if you got the stone? I can't decide. I want something others dont use a lot of so Im thinking of making mine white in color.

I think I was confused on companions and crew. I thought they were two different things. I thought you had crew but only one companion that went everywhere with you. I didn't know you could choose any crew to be a companion.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:21 pm

I won't spoil the companion list. I will say that the Smuggler has the coolest companions.

ibdoomed · Post by **ibdoomed** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:57 am

Has anyone discussed setting up a guild? I've not read the entire thread so I may have missed it.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:18 pm

ibdoomed wrote:Has anyone discussed setting up a guild? I've not read the entire thread so I may have missed it.

Dirk check the Wanderers thread. One has been set up

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:02 pm

Jedi Knight vs Bounty Hunter

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:01 pm

Daehawk wrote:Jedi Knight vs Bounty Hunter

Huh.

I liked WoW and I like Star Wars. Now that I know what to expect from Zurai, I may just give it a try.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:14 am

Can I say anything without getting in trouble? Like fun perhaps? Trying different classes. Wish I could say more. But I like playing this too much to get in trouble

rshetts2 · Post by **rshetts2** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:56 am

There are some things you can say. Avoiding specific content info, I will say that my first log in took about 5 minutes and I had no issues with it. I played most of the night last night and had an amazingly smooth run. No hang ups, crashes or disconnections at all. Very story driven quest lines that help take the monotony out of the basic. I was impressed.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:03 am

This might be the first MMO I play. Mainly because I don't really care for MMO's, but I want to play KOTOR3. I really don't care about raids and doing stuff with groups because that takes me out of the story. Give me a good story, some companion NPC's, and other RPG tropes - that's what I'm looking for. If this is a SP game wrapped in an MMO, then I'll probably be in.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:00 am

10 minutes till server shutdown so I left before it kicked me. Was a damn fun time by god. Can't wait. I played a sith inquisitor / sorc up to lvl 15 and had my companion. Also a lvl 12 smuggler / gunslinger. Didn't get a pet for him and never got to see any ships either. There at the very end I made a bounty hunter for the hell of it. Looked like a fun story developing and the attack I got was fun....a rocket punch

All and all I'd give it a 10 out of 10. It 'should' have a better launch even than WoW. I'll most likely make 1 of each class / race just to see them in action. I was set on a main character but now Im not so sure. Think I need to test them all before deciding. Im pretty sure I will play a healing sorc and a gunslinger.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:43 pm

All weekend I'd get up and go play ToR. Now I miss that

...Just 2 more months

Fellstrike · Post by **Fellstrike** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:16 pm

Game pre-ordered.
*waits impatiently*

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:45 pm

The first week or so was fun for me, too. I havn't spent 5 hours in game total between the last two builds, though. It's just more of the same with a thin veneer of Star Wars. There are personal story quests, but the other 80-90% of the quests you'll be doing are standard WoW fedex/kill shit quests, except with voice acting.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:50 pm

I saw huge similarities to WoW questing as well for the brief time I played it. The endless running around really killed it for me too. I still have my pre-order, but I don't need to play WoW in space.