Star Wars: The Old Republic

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:06 am

Cool - thanks!

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:23 am

Jag wrote:Absolutely. I think the game will still be fun, but for people who burnt out on that model of gameplay ...'this is not the mmo you are looking for'.

Cancelled my $150 pre-order a few days ago. This is not the mmo that I was looking for.

They really did need to make this a wow clone, because they have so much invested in it, and had to go with a proven business model. I just didn't want to collect 8 pieces of rancor meat for another wow quest. I was after star wars.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:47 pm

Wait, so this isn't KOTOR 3,4, and 5?

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:49 pm

Fitzy wrote:Wait, so this isn't KOTOR 3,4, and 5?

I wish that it was. The PvP is great though. The PvP is hilarious. Not really what you are expecting. PvP is Hutt-Ball. You square off against the opposite side and attempt to klll them while scoring goals. I kid you not. The game reeks of WoW clone.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:57 pm

I read somewhere that they only need about 500k subs to make money. I don't believe it, but if true, they won't have any problems getting that much the first year.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:27 pm

Jag wrote:I read somewhere that they only need about 500k subs to make money. I don't believe it, but if true, they won't have any problems getting that much the first year.

Well a sub is $50/mo you see...

Hell they could make money on 10 subs if they charge enough each.

ska5fe · Post by **ska5fe** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:32 pm

Avenger wrote:
Fitzy wrote:Wait, so this isn't KOTOR 3,4, and 5?
I wish that it was. The PvP is great though. The PvP is hilarious. Not really what you are expecting. PvP is Hutt-Ball. You square off against the opposite side and attempt to klll them while scoring goals. I kid you not. The game reeks of WoW clone.

This description makes me think of Super Mario Strikers (minus the killing), and it makes me laugh.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:50 pm

It makes me even more glad I never pre-ordered.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:18 pm

I keep seeing Jedi getting shot. Are Jedi incapable of deflecting blasters in this game?

Also: Rock Paper Shotgun has an awesome smuggler video. Pretty funny.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:26 pm

Fitzy wrote:I keep seeing Jedi getting shot. Are Jedi incapable of deflecting blasters in this game?

Argh. I really wish I wasn't under NDA. I'd love to tell all, but my forum name is the same in both places so it'd be easy to track me down.

What I will say is that the hype machine is starting to build up for this game, but like with any game from a major studio, you should take all hype with a hefty grain of salt.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:19 pm

Zurai wrote:my forum name is the same in both places so it'd be easy to track me down.

Well that was rather short sighted of you, wasn't it?

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:14 pm

Zurai wrote:Argh. I really wish I wasn't under NDA. I'd love to tell all, but my forum name is the same in both places so it'd be easy to track me down.

Hey, everyone, isn't it really funny that OO has had a poster named iaruZ for years who totally never posts but is absolutely not Zurai or in any way whatsoever related to him? I wonder if he has any thoughts about the game...

- Ash

PS> j/k, Z.

cheeba · Post by **cheeba** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:26 pm

Fitzy wrote:I keep seeing Jedi getting shot. Are Jedi incapable of deflecting blasters in this game?

Yes and no. Everyone has defense and if you shoot a blaster at any character, smuggler or jedi or bounty hunter, you have a chance of missing. Misses for the jedi can appear as shots blocked by the saber, whereas for the bounty hunter it's just a miss.

silvaril · Post by **silvaril** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:31 pm

Heya

Ya know, it would be nice if a Sci-Fi game with blasters and everything actually took into account the stuff between the weapon and the target, without having to revert to a 'cover' mechanic...

Tabula Rasa was something I eventually turfed for three reasons:
1 ) Shots fired at me passed through the rock I ducked behind to hit me.
2 ) Pistol whipping the Mobs did more damage than shooting them did.
3 ) Grenades were a LoS Direct Fire weapon

Oddly, the game died shortly after release.

By the sounds of it, TOR is destined to go the same way...

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:01 pm

silvaril wrote:Tabula Rasa was something I eventually turfed for three reasons:
1 ) Shots fired at me passed through the rock I ducked behind to hit me.
2 ) Pistol whipping the Mobs did more damage than shooting them did.
3 ) Grenades were a LoS Direct Fire weapon

This sounds oddly familiar for some reason... (unless you're a Smuggler or IA, who are able to duck behind rocks to avoid blaster fire)

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:09 am

I loved the Smuggler video..the part with a certain movie shot in it was great. Definitely want to dress like Cad Bane

EzeKieL · Post by **EzeKieL** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:16 am

I loved tabula rasa and kind of miss it ;_;

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:17 am

EzeKieL wrote:I loved tabula rasa and kind of miss it ;_;

Yeah, it certainly had flaws and needed work, but it was a pretty unique game. I would have liked to have seen what they could have done with it if it hadn't gone under so fast.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:41 pm

Found a nice web comic for the game. If it's been posted my apologies.

http://darthhater.com/comics/pro-tips/2 ... eaderboard" target="_blank

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:26 pm

New invites went out today. Check your inbox or http://www.swtor.com/tester" target="_blank for your luck.

Personally, my luck:

- Ash

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:26 pm

STILL NO INVITE!!!!!!!

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:39 pm

I hit the tester site, but it didn't look like I had an invite. At least, the application field just said that my application was complete.

Immediately after, I got two different emails from them. One was a broken link to a survey about my testing experience. The other was something like "now that you've had a taste of your adventure, pre-order now!" These both imply that I've been playing. WHAT WAS I MISSING?

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:50 pm

I just got the same two emails. WTH?? Did I miss my invite? I pre ordered too.

RLMullen · Post by **RLMullen** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:05 pm

I got the same exact emails and I DIDN'T preorder. The swtor website is 'offline' now. I'm thinking that someone messed up a script and sent the emails to the wrong group of people.

... or we all got invited to the beta but haven't actually received our invites.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:26 pm

Same two emails, with a preorder and not in the beta at all...

So I guess it was a screw up.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:28 am

RMC wrote:Same two emails, with a preorder and not in the beta at all...

So I guess it was a screw up.

It was a screw up:

Earlier today, two e-mails were sent to members of the Star Wars: The Old Republic community. These e-mails were sent to a larger group than intended, and have caused some confusion in the community. We can confirm that these e-mails were from EA and BioWare and apologize for any confusion they have caused. Please note that receiving these e-mails does not affect your chances to be invited to test the game. Thank you all for your understanding!

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:38 am

Im calling my lawyer.....wait they removed that pay phone on his corner in 98. im screwed.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:20 pm

Galaxy map

You can view starships or play short videos of the planets.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:57 pm

Daehawk wrote:Im calling my lawyer.....wait they removed that pay phone on his corner in 98. im screwed.

You have to go through arbitration first anyway.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:28 pm

Since I want to post something about this game, but my actual experiences are still under NDA, I decided to post a criticism of the design based on elements that are common knowledge. This is kind of tiptoeing along the line because it's informed by my beta experiences, but I am not going to draw judgments using any explicit beta knowledge here.

---

The single biggest fundamental design flaw of the game was deciding to mix Force users and non-Force users as playable classes on an even playing field. This is such a glaring fault that I'm amazed anyone ever greenlit the idea; it's even more egregious coming from Bioware, who usually at least have a clue design-wise. The entire concept of Jedi (and Sith) is that they are super-human. They run faster, react more quickly, jump higher, and heal faster than a standard member of race <x>, have mystical powers like shooting lightning from their hands, levitating entire capital starships, choking people at intrastellar ranges, deflecting condensed energy bolts with their bare hands, etc.

How, then, can you balance a Jedi Knight against a Smuggler? How do you balance the combat ability (as this MMO is designed and advertised to be a WoW-style combat MMO) of Darth Maul vs Han Solo?

Answer: You throw away the source material. PCs have to be balanced and PCs can be either Jedi or non-Jedi, so Jedi cannot be any more capable than non-Jedi. Period. They can be differently capable; you could set it up, for example, so that only Jedi could fulfill the "Tank" combat role. Even a glance through the published Advanced Classes for each base class will show that even this isn't true in any basic mechanical sense, however.

And, in truth, there's nothing wrong with that from a mechanical standpoint. In fact, given the requirements of the game, it's the only mechanically viable answer. However, the entire selling point of a Star Wars MMO is to play a Star Wars character. The game is fully voice acted, sure, but that really isn't going to sell the game. It's a nice bonus, but the game will be bought because it has Star Wars in the name.

If Jedi are playable, people are going to go into the game expecting their character to, eventually, be able to do things that Luke Skywalker, Qui-Gon Jinn, Darth Maul, or Obi-Wan Kenobi could do. They want to be able to stand in front of a group of civilians with their lightsaber out and deflect every blaster bolt sent their way back at the source, attacking through defense. They want to be able to jump three stories upwards in order to avoid a pack of enemies. They want to be able to Force Push people off ledges, or Force Pull their weapons out of their hands. They want to be able to outrun normal enemies with a burst of Force Speed.

Unfortunately for those people, all of those things are totally unfair to Republic Troopers, Bounty Hunters, Smugglers, and Imperial Agents. Sure, some of those arcetypes might be able to duplicate some of those Force-powered feats (Bounty Hunters could use their jetpack to "jump" really high, for example), but no one non-Force archetype can do even half of those things. That left two options: nerf or simply refuse to implement various Force powers, and/or give non-Force users analogues, even when it doesn't make sense.

I can give an example of the latter because it's been shown and talked about: One of the signature Jedi powers is the ability to go into a voluntary meditative healing state, where body functions are slowed dramatically and healing is accelerated. Jedi still have this power--but so does everyone else. Sure, the other classes have different flavors for theirs (as an example, the Bounty Hunter tests all his weapons and gear, and this is a very cool bit of animation to be sure), but it amounts to the same thing: making Jedi and non-Jedi equal.

And, unfortunately, the source material very clearly makes Jedi and non-Jedi distinctly unequal in combat capabilities. Thus, when people who are buying a game purely because of the source material buy this game, they are bound to be disappointed--and Bioware should have known this going in.

---

As I said, that criticism is informed by my beta experiences, but I had reservations along those lines when it was first announced that there would be both Force and non-Force classes in the game, years ago. In fact, I could have written about 95% of that criticism at the time of that announcement; the only thing using even recent knowledge is the Advanced Class statement and the rest and recuperate skill statement, both of which are public knowledge.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:00 pm

When Galaxies came out, everyone was pissed that they couldn't be jedi/sith. Everyone had to be a mundane class, and only 1 character per account per server was allowed.

Although I knew everyone was going to want to be a Jedi, I figured they'd do something to limit them. I wanted a jedi too, but was less focused on it, and less pissed that I couldn't be.

Over time I came to accept that the absence of Jedi was a good thing. They were supposed to be rare, and they were rare. So rare in fact that I think it was about a year before one showed up. They had made them too rare. And the ones that started showing up were weak. Really weak. Only those who had strong guilds to protect them lived long enough to level, or those who were extremely good at hiding (I like to think I fit into this category) and level'd in the middle of the wild.

Ok, got distracted. My point was that a jedi with a few levels under his belt, good materials and a high quality crystal was a solid force and could handle a couple of regular guys in combat. And then PvP skill could mean they could take on quite a few guys at once.

But they were rare, difficult to get, difficult to level and difficult to keep alive, and when they died, they were gone and you had to start over at level 1.

It was not what their costumers wanted at first, but it worked. Everyone settled into playing their smugglers or bounty hunters or whatever, and the occasional jedi was an *EVENT* that most of the server would come out to take a looksee. Somehow, despite all the poor design decisions, the "feel" of jedis in galaxies was right. It worked. It was true'ish to the source material and still gave everyone a (low) chance at being a jedi.

I'm not sure how you replicate that. Zurai's concerns were the exact same concerns that existed for Galaxy before it was released. It is a difficult design hurdle to overcome. I don't like what I hear about SW:TOR, because it turns Jedi into just another class, and that destroys most of what makes Jedi special. There's a reason the Sith/Jedi are doing well in the Vs. game, and it's not because Han and Darth were on equal footing in the movies.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:33 pm

If you look at the original trilogy, the Jedi are rare and badass because they are rare and legendary.

In the new movies, they are more common and an everyday, known quantity that are strong, but you're going to have different skill levels and people that are capable, if with difficulty.

There's never going to be a sweet spot in an MMO that makes everyone happy.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:34 pm

Remember to take your midiclhorine pi;l each morning.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:19 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:In the new movies, they are more common and an everyday, known quantity that are strong, but you're going to have different skill levels and people that are capable, if with difficulty.

And yet, young Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are able to destroy essentially unlimited numbers of battle droids and destroyer droids with absolutely no outside assistance. Put Han and Chewbacca in that Trade Federation battleship and they die horribly.

EDIT: And, as for Galaxies, their Jedi were explicitly designed not to be equal to normal characters. Jedi were intentionally made more powerful because they were so rare. That isn't the design that ToR uses.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:21 am

IIRC the official line is that at level 1 the Trooper and Smuggler (and their Imperial non-Force counterparts) are the best-of-the-best and continue to get better as you continue to level. So a level 1 trooper is not some cannon-fodder straight out of boot camp, but a heavily battle-tested, experienced and resourceful NCO from one of the most elite units in the Republic Army. In contrast the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular start off at level 1 as Padawans, only partly trained and completely untested.

Think about it this way, in the first half of Star Wars: A New Hope, if you were in a fight would you rather have Han Solo or Luke Skywalker with you? Luke is almost completely clueless and doesn't even really know about his force powers, much less how to control them.

I think the Clone Wars cartoon provides even a better example for those of you who have watched it. Commander Cody and Captain Rex are very tough and very effective. Would you rather have one of them or Ahsoka Tano, the Padawan? Ahsoka has been getting more effective, but I think I'd probably pick Rex or Cody over here (at least up to the start of Season 3, which is as far as I've gotten). Certainly at the start of Season 1, Ahsoka is nowhere near as good as Cody or Rex. The SWTOR Trooper starts of at the Commander Cody level (as he is portrayed at the start of the Clone Wars Season 1) and moves on from there. The Jedi Knight starts out at the Padawan Ahsoka Tano level (as she's portrayed at the start of the Clone Wars Season 1) and moves up from there.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:25 am

ydejin wrote:IIRC the official line is that at level 1 the Trooper and Smuggler (and their Imperial non-Force counterparts) are the best-of-the-best and continue to get better as you continue to level. So a level 1 trooper is not some cannon-fodder straight out of boot camp, but a heavily battle-tested, experienced and resourceful NCO from one of the most elite units in the Republic Army. In contrast the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular start off at level 1 as Padawans, only partly trained and completely untested.

So it somehow invalidates the "this doesn't feel like Star Wars" problems when all the Troopers, Bounty Hunters, Agents, and Smugglers are ultra-elite operatives and all the Jedi and Sith are bumpkin padawan/apprentices? Even assuming you're right, it still creates a problem: using your own example, you say the troopers are way better than the padawan. Does that continue through the entire game? Jedi are gimped just so the troopers can stroke their egos? Do the two balance out at the end game, leading to exactly the problem I described? Or do the Jedi pull ahead, which makes the entire thing a mockery?

And, anyway (still avoiding explicit beta references; I havn't even finished the first story arc on my Jedi Knight), they're touting the story for ToR; every single character class is supposed to have its own epic storyline. It's a no-brainer that the Jedi Knight storyline, for example, is going to involve duels with Dark Lords of the Sith. And probably before level 50. A Jedi who can defeat a Dark Lord of the Sith in single combat is no country bumpkin--and yet, he's expected to be as close to perfectly balanced as possible with an Imperial Agent of the same level. If that's the case, WTF would the Sith Empire even bother with Dark Lords? Clearly their field operatives are superior.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:56 am

Zurai wrote:
ydejin wrote:IIRC the official line is that at level 1 the Trooper and Smuggler (and their Imperial non-Force counterparts) are the best-of-the-best and continue to get better as you continue to level. So a level 1 trooper is not some cannon-fodder straight out of boot camp, but a heavily battle-tested, experienced and resourceful NCO from one of the most elite units in the Republic Army. In contrast the Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular start off at level 1 as Padawans, only partly trained and completely untested.
So it somehow invalidates the "this doesn't feel like Star Wars" problems when all the Troopers, Bounty Hunters, Agents, and Smugglers are ultra-elite operatives and all the Jedi and Sith are bumpkin padawan/apprentices? Even assuming you're right, it still creates a problem: using your own example, you say the troopers are way better than the padawan. Does that continue through the entire game? Jedi are gimped just so the troopers can stroke their egos? Do the two balance out at the end game, leading to exactly the problem I described? Or do the Jedi pull ahead, which makes the entire thing a mockery?

And, anyway (still avoiding explicit beta references; I havn't even finished the first story arc on my Jedi Knight), they're touting the story for ToR; every single character class is supposed to have its own epic storyline. It's a no-brainer that the Jedi Knight storyline, for example, is going to involve duels with Dark Lords of the Sith. And probably before level 50. A Jedi who can defeat a Dark Lord of the Sith in single combat is no country bumpkin--and yet, he's expected to be as close to perfectly balanced as possible with an Imperial Agent of the same level. If that's the case, WTF would the Sith Empire even bother with Dark Lords? Clearly their field operatives are superior.

This being a game, the elite starting troopers = bumpkin padawins in power at the start of the game, and ending troopers = elite jedi in ending power at the end of the game. The point being that there's an actual "logical" reason why troopers start with the same power as Jedi, because troopers aren't privates out of bootcamp, but Jedi's are straight out of the equivalent of Jedi boot camp.

As GreenGoo points out, there really aren't that many choices. Either there are no Jedi, or you allow everyone who wants to be Jedi be Jedi. If Jedi are way more powerful than all the other classes, then everyone plays Jedi.

Bioware IMO has made a reasonable decision for a game, and tried to come up with a reasonably logical reason for the more or less level playing field between the character classes. This doesn't result in everything being completely bullet-proof and logical since a level 50 Jedi would probably still wup on all the other non-Jedi, but it's a reasonable decision given their constraints of making a fun game.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:22 am

Zurai wrote:EDIT: And, as for Galaxies, their Jedi were explicitly designed not to be equal to normal characters. Jedi were intentionally made more powerful because they were so rare. That isn't the design that ToR uses.

I thought that was clear?

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:54 am

ydejin wrote:This doesn't result in everything being completely bullet-proof and logical since a level 50 Jedi would probably still wup on all the other non-Jedi, but it's a reasonable decision given their constraints of making a fun game.

I think you've entirely missed my point.

GreenGoo wrote:
Zurai wrote:EDIT: And, as for Galaxies, their Jedi were explicitly designed not to be equal to normal characters. Jedi were intentionally made more powerful because they were so rare. That isn't the design that ToR uses.
I thought that was clear?

I wanted to make sure the point was made explicitly. Not everyone played Galaxies.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:57 am

I'll say this:

The Old Republic would have been 10 times as fun if the four base classes were Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder, Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut, Jedi Sage/Sith Inquisitor, and Jedi Shadow/Sith Assassin. Or, alternately, if they'd been the non-Force-sensitive classes exclusively.