Re: Poker Strategy Discussion
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:27 am
That's a lot of poker! Congrats.
(Are you working during the day, or are you between jobs?)
(Are you working during the day, or are you between jobs?)
That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://octopusoverlords.com/forum/
Dang Judy.SpaceLord wrote:Wooo!
My week in poker:
Saturday, noon, Golden Gates: With 20 people left, I had 1.5 BBs. I finished 6th for like 160 bucks.
Monday night, Golden Gates: Finished 4th for 350$.
Wednesday night: Chopped the Wacky Wednesday 7PM tourney for 1200 bucks.
Running good!
Yeah, being behind by a whopper margin going into heads-up does give that liberating feeling. I like it.paulbaxter wrote:I was a bit miffed because I came in second in the same sort of tourney last week. Had a huge chip lead on the final table, had about 80% of the chips when we were down to 2, but got outplayed. I wish there was some sort of formula for how to close out heads up when you have a big lead. I suppose I couldn't have done any worse just by closing my eyes and pushing every hand til it was over. My opponent played very aggressively (exactly the way I play when I'm behind in heads up play).
"Working", yes. I've been at the Citi project for a few weeks now, we finally go to actually do stuff this week.The Meal wrote:That's a lot of poker! Congrats.
(Are you working during the day, or are you between jobs?)
Good luck up there. I think I've said it before, but the Sunday noon tourney is better: the Saturday noon tourney has a pretty huge blind jump at about the 6th level, I wonder if it's there to get more people to bust and play in the 3PM....The Meal wrote:Pretty fantastic!
I think that we (me and ChrisGrenard, who has been on a hot run of his own of late) are heading up for (at least) the noon tournament at the Gates on Saturday. If there are any other local fOOlks interested in joining forces, post in here or send me a PM. We could go up on Sunday as well/instead. (Final plans TBD.)
PokerTracker and PokerAceHUD work well in concert.Zork wrote:In an effort to keep the poker talk going, what tools/sites do you guys use or recommend?
I have used SharkScope as a guest to look up an opponent when I'm heads up or in the money, but I find I alter my play and get more nervous (especially against better players). I would almost rather take the "ignorance is bliss" approach and play the way I normally do.
I also know there are some apps that overlay player info onto the game window. Has anyone had any experice with those? I'm assuming those are used more for cash ring games. Since I play only STTs and MTTs it may not be that benefical.
-Zork
That's interesting...any idea why it's banned there?SpaceLord wrote:PokerTracker and PokerAceHUD work well in concert.
Sharkscope, on the other hand, is not allowed at PokerStars. They have an explicit policy saying that you may not visit the SS site while the client is open, I know they have been sending warning letters lately, but I don't think anyone has been punished yet.
I always thought that would probably be the case.paulbaxter wrote:I had my first straight flush about 3 weeks ago. It turned out to be a royal. Within the context it wasn't actually nearly as exciting as I thought it would be. Probably would be different if I was playing draw poker or something.
With blinds at that level it seems to be pretty much a crap shoot/card catching contest. I don't know if this is wise or not, but my inclination would be to limp and hope. You have a well above average hand. OTOH, the remaining players (any of them) are in a position to go all-in on nearly anything. I'm not sure it makes much difference if you push pre-flop, limp and wait, or bet the flop no matter what it is. In theory you come out well if you can bet and get someone to fold pre-flop, but it's hard to say. In other words, whatever you did, I'm sure you did fineThe Meal wrote:Live game. $115 buy in. 10 person SNG. Top two finishers get paid $500 each. Initial chips = T2500. Blinds start at T25/T50 and basically double every 12 minutes (from memory: i. T25/50, ii. T50/100, iii. T100/200, iv. T200/400, v. T300/600, vi. T500/1000, vii. T1000/2000). NLHE.
Play a conservative game through the first 3 levels. Don't show down a single hand, but manage to maintain chips. Play a bit more aggressively for the next two levels, and again manage to chip up only showing premium hands or by a combination of good reads and good bluffs. With five left, get caught with "hand in cookie jar" (or the live-game equivalent!) raising to T1250 on button (blinds at T200/400), and get called by BB — coincidentally all-in for T1250 — with 77. Suck out with an ace on the river. Gain chip lead. Build chip lead over the next level, but no more aggressive than any of two other players at the table.
With roughly T10,000, levels having just become T1000/2000, there are a total of four players at the table:
me: perceived as aggressive (but certainly not maniacal), T10,000
one to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5000 (T1000 of which is in the SB)
two to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5500 (T2000 of which is in the BB)
one to my right: probably too-tight, with roughly T4500, players on either side of me are obviously friends and are soft-playing each other.
UTG (tight player to my right) folds, on the button I see , what's my play?
2 players to act. What will they call your shove with?The Meal wrote:Live game. $115 buy in. 10 person SNG. Top two finishers get paid $500 each. Initial chips = T2500. Blinds start at T25/T50 and basically double every 12 minutes (from memory: i. T25/50, ii. T50/100, iii. T100/200, iv. T200/400, v. T300/600, vi. T500/1000, vii. T1000/2000). NLHE.
Play a conservative game through the first 3 levels. Don't show down a single hand, but manage to maintain chips. Play a bit more aggressively for the next two levels, and again manage to chip up only showing premium hands or by a combination of good reads and good bluffs. With five left, get caught with "hand in cookie jar" (or the live-game equivalent!) raising to T1250 on button (blinds at T200/400), and get called by BB — coincidentally all-in for T1250 — with 77. Suck out with an ace on the river. Gain chip lead. Build chip lead over the next level, but no more aggressive than any of two other players at the table.
With roughly T10,000, levels having just become T1000/2000, there are a total of four players at the table:
me: perceived as aggressive (but certainly not maniacal), T10,000
one to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5000 (T1000 of which is in the SB)
two to my left: appropriately aggressive with roughly T5500 (T2000 of which is in the BB)
one to my right: probably too-tight, with roughly T4500, players on either side of me are obviously friends and are soft-playing each other.
UTG (tight player to my right) folds, on the button I see , what's my play?
I hear ya. Could folding then be the most optimal play? It's just hard to make any sort of reasoned judgments when the blind levels are quite high. It becomes a matter of who hits the flop/board and who doesn't.The Meal wrote:Like I said, below 5 BBs, I typically don't limp unless I'm at a table of folks who allow high-blind limping, or if only folks who will act after me frequently allow the move and there's already a limper ahead. If you're sub-5BBs, you really need to double-up, not incrementally win an additional blind or two. Winning a blind or two generally earns you another 4-8 starting hands (or so, depending on how many folks are left) which is an orbit or an orbit-and-a-half. That's certainly not nothing, but better to win those things by taking the chips preflop (without your opponents having a chance to match the flop cards), then by the limp-hit-a-flop play. If you're already putting 20%+ of your stack into the pot, you're dangerously close to pot-committed. Limp-folding-to-a-bad-flop in that situation is disasterous to your ability to earn enough chips to bounce back. (A double-up+blinds at 4BB is a whole lot better than a double up+blinds at 3BB.)
I would agree with your difficulty in coming up with a "best" analysis, especially considering the end-of-game bubble nature of things. The ideal conditions for limping with a KTs type hand are: stacks of 20+BB, limpers on which you'd have position, passive players acting afterwards, and opponents who make bad post-flop decisions. I'm not seeing much of that ideal in this situation (other than the pseudo-connected suited broadway cards constituting your hand).
Definitely true, I would have been pretty angry.paulbaxter wrote:Nicely done. Be glad your bad luck came at 21 rather than 22
Once the other players know you raise more hands than normal, things get interesting. Some players will re-raise just to push you out. If you don't like the re-raise, and will be out of position, you need to fold, and wait for a better shot. It's the most fun when you catch a hand like Kings or Aces, and you smooth call the raise from the blinds.Blinds are 100/200, you have 10k chips.
You raise to 500 with and get 2 callers, one from behind you, the other from the BB.
The flop comes:
The BB checks, and. with 1600 in the pot, you bet 800. Believing you do not have a Q, the player behind you raises to 1600(it happens a *lot* in live tourneys.) The BB quickly folds, and you manage a grimace as you call. It costs you 800 chips to win the 3900 in the middle, it's an easy call.
If the turn brings any diamond, or any 5 or 10(17 outs), you can check, and hope for a bet from the other player. If he bets, let's say around 1/2 the pot, 1800, you can shove, especially if the turn was your straight card. If you win the pot there, your stack increases by 35%, and if you get called, you can double up, I would venture more than half the time, unless you think the other player was semi-bluffing the nut flush draw.
Yeah, I haven't really developed that play--raising with suited connectors. As I'm sitting here thinking about your question of the continuation bet, I imagine it has a lot to do with what sort of plausible story you can tell and what you think your opponents will believe.SpaceLord wrote:
The "small-ball" style I've been playing lately is very difficult. I mean, when you raise with from middle position, and you get 2 callers, do you C-bet if you miss the flop? With "standard" poker(Harrington), you're not going to be raising with these kind of hands very often.
I change gears into a small-ball style, though it's not my SOP. When deciding to continuation bet, I use flop texture. An ace on the flop gives a lot of credibility to the first raiser, so I generally do bet out if I do see that card. (Preflop callers could easily also have an ace, but they could also be "only" calling with lots of other hands, such as TT or the like.)SpaceLord wrote: The "small-ball" style I've been playing lately is very difficult. I mean, when you raise with from middle position, and you get 2 callers, do you C-bet if you miss the flop? With "standard" poker(Harrington), you're not going to be raising with these kind of hands very often.
Yep, and that's the reason you're doing it. Small ball is a gear I shift into not because I'm wanting to pick up more antes, but because I'm in a hand against folks who I think would pay me off with their whole stack were they to hit TPTK (and I were to *hit* my small-ball hand).1. If the players don't think/know you will raise with 78s, if an Ace flops, they will probably put you on AJ+, and respect that bet.
2. If you do hit the flop, or a big draw, these same unknowing players might raise you. And since many players seem to think(mostly wrongly) that min-raising a C-bet will produce a fold, you can extract value if you hit your hand on the turn, probably with a significant check raise.
That's a pretty best-case example, but definitely appropriate. You squeeze value out of small-ball hands on the turn and river with other plays as well.An example:
It definitely opens the game up for trapping, especially if the gear you're shifting from is more of an ABC-style game (which doesn't really lend itself to trapping at all). As a beginner/early-intermediate, I tried playing trappy, and quickly received feedback (in terms of losing!) that cured me of that fault. Now that I've got a well-balanced whole-game strategy, having those occasional opportunities to trap has really cranked up the fun factor again.Once the other players know you raise more hands than normal, things get interesting. Some players will re-raise just to push you out. If you don't like the re-raise, and will be out of position, you need to fold, and wait for a better shot. It's the most fun when you catch a hand like Kings or Aces, and you smooth call the raise from the blinds.
Definitely not the style for folks who don't know how to fold, or for folks who convince themselves that their opponents are always trying to push them off of a hand. I don't think I have the patience/fortitude/hand-reading-abilities to play a sole small-ball style strategy (or even the majority of my time at the table!), but you can improve your chances by dropping into that gear against opponents who are more susceptible to those sorts of plays.The small ball style is for players who aren't afraid to play "marginal" cards, and excel at postflop decisions, nothing is more crucial to this style.