Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
- Apollo
- Posts: 1804
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:57 pm
- Location: Gardendale, AL
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Antisemitism is not something you run into much here in the South despite what you may have heard, but it is definitely coming out of the woodwork now. While the majority of folks are pro-Israel here, the anti-Israel people are more outspoken about this than they normally are about the controversy of the moment. Almost all of the rhetoric I have personally been subjected to was clearly anti-Semitic and its all coming from left wingers. Please don't try to tell me that this movement has nothing to do with antisemitism!
- ImLawBoy
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 15063
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
There certainly may be distinctions between how I as a non-Jew interpret things and how you as a Jew interpret things, and I don't want to come off telling you how you can feel about it. As a non-Jew, I see a credible, secular based argument for these protests that do not make them necessarily antisemitic. I appreciate how you could feel differently about it, though.El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 4:38 pm A couple things. First, I think the targeting of Israelis as Israelis absolutely has an impact on Jews who are not themselves Israeli. One because Judaism as a religion has significant ties to the land of Israel (next year in Jerusalem, and all that), so even Jews that are relatively hostile to Netanyahu and his allies still often have part of their identities tied to Israel. Also a lot of Jews are not going to feel super safe and comfortable around a group of people who are targeting Israel, even if they're not (currently) overtly targeting Jews. Like when those UCLA schmucks were excluding "Zionists" from campus common spaces like the library. Was that targeting Jews as Jews? No...but I can't imagine any Jew feeling safe when people are going after "Zionists".
Not that there aren't distinctions here between impacts on Israelis and impacts on Jews...but they're pretty thin.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I tried to point out that I'm almost certain that there are bigots and true antisemites in these protests. I'm saying that their mere presence does not make the protests antisemitic. It's a fair question to ask at what point do the bad apples taint the barrel such that you have to toss the whole thing (maybe that's breaking up the encampments in this strained analogy). I suspect you and I might have different thresholds on that tipping point.El Guapo wrote:Second, you seem to be drawing a distinction where someone who is acting because of the actions of a group (e.g., someone targeting Israelis because of the war in Gaza) cannot be acting with bigoted intent (or at least is unlikely to be doing so). But I don't think that's as robust a distinction as you think. Bigots are almost always acting upon members of a minority group based upon (real or perceived) actions of the group at large.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
- ImLawBoy
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 15063
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Good thing I haven't tried to tell anyone that!
That's my purse! I don't know you!
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 23822
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I work at the CSU, and I think the Sacramento State agreement is a pretty good start.
The protest ended Wednesday, as the university shared a new policy in which it "directs its auxiliaries...to investigate socially responsible investment strategies which include not having direct investments in corporations and funds that profit from genocide, ethnic cleansing, and activities that violate fundamental human rights."
Wood reiterated to CBS News that "we're not investing in students' future by engaging in relationships with companies that profit from war."
While he is concerned about the possibility of losing support from some donors and state lawmakers, Wood is confident in his decision to support the new policy.
"I very much care what our donors think," Wood said. "I very much care what our legislators think. But ultimately, my responsibility is for the health, the safety, and the learning and development of this campus."
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Holman
- Posts: 29181
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
FWIW, "next year in Jerusalem" for most Jews does not refer to modern Jerusalem. (After all, it's easy to buy airline tickets if the goal is to be there specifically.)
Instead, it means freedom from an exile much more spiritual than geographical or political. I've attended Passover Seders where the disconnect between "Israel"/"Jerusalem" and modern Israel/Jerusalem was the most interesting point of discussion.
Instead, it means freedom from an exile much more spiritual than geographical or political. I've attended Passover Seders where the disconnect between "Israel"/"Jerusalem" and modern Israel/Jerusalem was the most interesting point of discussion.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I don't think this is true. For example at Columbia, some of the pro-Palestinian protestors are Jewish. They're in general anti Israel's action in Gaza, not anti Jewish people. There are probably some racist anti Jewish people among them but in general, they're not anti Jewish. There were a lot of misinformation in the media that tried to show the protestors as racist and anti Jewish people.GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 1:54 pm Call us when they forbid Israelis but allow Jewish people. Until then, I'm pretty sure El Guapo meant people of Jewish persuasion rather than Israeli nationals.
US/Canadian campuses are directing their anger at Jewish people in general, not Israelis specifically (or more accurately, lumping them all in with Israel nationals). It's anti-Semitic because it's discrimination based on race and/or religion, not because of their nationality.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/23/us/v ... -ny-digvid
https://time.com/6976426/columbia-prote ... ism-essay/
Jewish protestor's statement:“Please do let the world know,” a Jewish student, speaking on conditions of anonymity, said to me following a Shabbat service in the encampment. “Show them how much love exists here.” Minutes later Muslim students held their evening prayer service. On day eight, I listened as a Palestinian storyteller shared his poetry which concluded with the words: “I have never felt harmony the way I have this past week, here in this camp, united by a shared love for a group of people that many are so desperately trying to erase.”
...
Ray (their last name has been kept private for anonymity), for instance, an artist and undergraduate student at Barnard whom I encountered a week into the encampment, dedicated her afternoons to painting portraits of Palestinians in Gaza. Her canvases pulsated with brown hues, chromes, and crimson applied through watercolor ink to stroke the urgency of the situation in Gaza. Ray had just celebrated Passover in the encampment a few days earlier and mentioned the bizarre moment she woke up to find a camera in her face, snapping pictures inside her unzipped tent: “The least they can do is ask, or try to get to know me first.”
- Zarathud
- Posts: 16673
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
The defense of “It’s not racist because [minority] is here” does not wear well. It’s an old tactic to deflect racist behavior.
It’s a complicated issue, and no doubt there are elements of racism involved in the quick move to punish Israel as committing war crimes. The question is who and how much. Protest leaders are frequently at the mercy of the mob they inspire.
It’s a complicated issue, and no doubt there are elements of racism involved in the quick move to punish Israel as committing war crimes. The question is who and how much. Protest leaders are frequently at the mercy of the mob they inspire.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
And here is a video from anti war Jewish protestors:
Are they racist against Jews?
Are they racist against Jews?
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
And here are nice things that a few Israel protestors do:
Bad people are on both side of the protests but majority are just people who cares.
Bad people are on both side of the protests but majority are just people who cares.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41538
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I would just say that (as with so much stuff in religion) there is both a literal and a metaphorical dimension to this. And in my experience the more reform you go the more metaphorical things get.Holman wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 6:30 pm FWIW, "next year in Jerusalem" for most Jews does not refer to modern Jerusalem. (After all, it's easy to buy airline tickets if the goal is to be there specifically.)
Instead, it means freedom from an exile much more spiritual than geographical or political. I've attended Passover Seders where the disconnect between "Israel"/"Jerusalem" and modern Israel/Jerusalem was the most interesting point of discussion.
Black Lives Matter.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41538
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I understood you to be saying that someone acting because they are angry about the war in Gaza is (at least as a general matter) not acting with antisemitic intent. Did I misunderstand that?ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 5:31 pmThat's not what I'm saying at all. I tried to point out that I'm almost certain that there are bigots and true antisemites in these protests. I'm saying that their mere presence does not make the protests antisemitic. It's a fair question to ask at what point do the bad apples taint the barrel such that you have to toss the whole thing (maybe that's breaking up the encampments in this strained analogy). I suspect you and I might have different thresholds on that tipping point.El Guapo wrote:Second, you seem to be drawing a distinction where someone who is acting because of the actions of a group (e.g., someone targeting Israelis because of the war in Gaza) cannot be acting with bigoted intent (or at least is unlikely to be doing so). But I don't think that's as robust a distinction as you think. Bigots are almost always acting upon members of a minority group based upon (real or perceived) actions of the group at large.
Part of why I'm talking about the Eurovision stuff (in addition to it generally bothering me) is that it's the best example I can think of where people (the other singers / delegations at Eurovision) acted because they were angry about the war in Gaza but where their collective conduct was (in my mind) antisemitic.
Black Lives Matter.
- LawBeefaroni
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 55466
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
- Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
The thing is is that a lot of antisemitic actors are using the protests and "anti-Israel" groundswell to rachet up anti-Jewish rhetoric and attacks. If protestors don't recognize this and act appropriately they become complicit.
Example. In one of our neighborhoods someone took an Israeli flag, smeared it with dogshit, and left it on the fence of a Jewish resident.
Completely unrelated, but at the same time, students at a nearby university were occupying a quad. They were kicked out by police this morning, mostly peacefully but with high tensions and some scuffles. Now to the family with the dogshit covered flag, especially the kids, seeing the protests and shouting, and clashing with police give a whole lot of weight to the hate crime they personally experienced. It is frightening.
Like I said, the two events almost certainly unrelated but they work together synergistically and the true racists and antisemites know this very well. Most of the protests do not acknowledge this fact nor do they go far enough to distance themselves from the bad actors. It's mostly out of naïveté, and not ill intent, but it has the same result.
Example. In one of our neighborhoods someone took an Israeli flag, smeared it with dogshit, and left it on the fence of a Jewish resident.
Completely unrelated, but at the same time, students at a nearby university were occupying a quad. They were kicked out by police this morning, mostly peacefully but with high tensions and some scuffles. Now to the family with the dogshit covered flag, especially the kids, seeing the protests and shouting, and clashing with police give a whole lot of weight to the hate crime they personally experienced. It is frightening.
Like I said, the two events almost certainly unrelated but they work together synergistically and the true racists and antisemites know this very well. Most of the protests do not acknowledge this fact nor do they go far enough to distance themselves from the bad actors. It's mostly out of naïveté, and not ill intent, but it has the same result.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42575
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Are they chanting "death to Israel"?
- ImLawBoy
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 15063
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I don't think it's black and white. I think that some people are acting because they are angry about Gaza without antisemitic intent. I think that some people are using Gaza as a pretense but are acting from antisemitic intent. I think there are some people who are genuinely upset about Gaza, but they also have some antisemitic intent (and the range there can be very wide).El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 8:55 amI understood you to be saying that someone acting because they are angry about the war in Gaza is (at least as a general matter) not acting with antisemitic intent. Did I misunderstand that?ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 5:31 pmThat's not what I'm saying at all. I tried to point out that I'm almost certain that there are bigots and true antisemites in these protests. I'm saying that their mere presence does not make the protests antisemitic. It's a fair question to ask at what point do the bad apples taint the barrel such that you have to toss the whole thing (maybe that's breaking up the encampments in this strained analogy). I suspect you and I might have different thresholds on that tipping point.El Guapo wrote:Second, you seem to be drawing a distinction where someone who is acting because of the actions of a group (e.g., someone targeting Israelis because of the war in Gaza) cannot be acting with bigoted intent (or at least is unlikely to be doing so). But I don't think that's as robust a distinction as you think. Bigots are almost always acting upon members of a minority group based upon (real or perceived) actions of the group at large.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42575
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Well, here's the thing. If you're standing beside some asshat screaming death to Jews and you let it continue, you're part of the problem. Yes, even if you're Jewish.
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
So do you have an example of student protestors that standing beside some asshat screaming death to Jews and let it continue? If so they're part of the problem. But majority of the protestors are not like that.
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42575
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Great. I never said otherwise.
<removed snark>
<removed snark>
Last edited by GreenGoo on Thu May 16, 2024 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41538
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Yeah, that's all true. Mainly I think that there are a lot of good and well meaning people who think that they can't possibly be deemed antisemitic who aren't totally thinking through the impact of their actions or how they may be received. I also think that divestment demands that are limited to anything Israeli and nothing else are at least deeply problematic in a way that a lot of people haven't really thought through.ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 10:20 amI don't think it's black and white. I think that some people are acting because they are angry about Gaza without antisemitic intent. I think that some people are using Gaza as a pretense but are acting from antisemitic intent. I think there are some people who are genuinely upset about Gaza, but they also have some antisemitic intent (and the range there can be very wide).El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 8:55 amI understood you to be saying that someone acting because they are angry about the war in Gaza is (at least as a general matter) not acting with antisemitic intent. Did I misunderstand that?ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 5:31 pmThat's not what I'm saying at all. I tried to point out that I'm almost certain that there are bigots and true antisemites in these protests. I'm saying that their mere presence does not make the protests antisemitic. It's a fair question to ask at what point do the bad apples taint the barrel such that you have to toss the whole thing (maybe that's breaking up the encampments in this strained analogy). I suspect you and I might have different thresholds on that tipping point.El Guapo wrote:Second, you seem to be drawing a distinction where someone who is acting because of the actions of a group (e.g., someone targeting Israelis because of the war in Gaza) cannot be acting with bigoted intent (or at least is unlikely to be doing so). But I don't think that's as robust a distinction as you think. Bigots are almost always acting upon members of a minority group based upon (real or perceived) actions of the group at large.
Black Lives Matter.
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Then how can they protest Israel's action in Gaza? How they protest Israel's action without being deemed antisemitic or deeply problematic to you?El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:17 am Yeah, that's all true. Mainly I think that there are a lot of good and well meaning people who think that they can't possibly be deemed antisemitic who aren't totally thinking through the impact of their actions or how they may be received. I also think that divestment demands that are limited to anything Israeli and nothing else are at least deeply problematic in a way that a lot of people haven't really thought through.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41538
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Well, mainly I'd say don't discriminate against someone or harass someone solely because they're Israeli. Protest all you want, demand divestment from the IDF relationships...really talking about a pretty narrow category of conduct here.Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:51 amThen how can they protest Israel's action in Gaza? How they protest Israel's action without being deemed antisemitic or deeply problematic to you?El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 11:17 am Yeah, that's all true. Mainly I think that there are a lot of good and well meaning people who think that they can't possibly be deemed antisemitic who aren't totally thinking through the impact of their actions or how they may be received. I also think that divestment demands that are limited to anything Israeli and nothing else are at least deeply problematic in a way that a lot of people haven't really thought through.
Black Lives Matter.
- hepcat
- Posts: 52180
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Just as we wouldn't want someone harassing random Palestinians for the actions of Hamas, I don't think we should be harassing random Israelis for the actions of their government.
Now depoliticized.
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 23822
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Assume photos from the encampment on our campus
Pretty small and casual. There were more students going in and out of the library (finals start next week). Fun story, I heard in a meeting that the students were getting some of the tents from CampusRec
Pretty small and casual. There were more students going in and out of the library (finals start next week). Fun story, I heard in a meeting that the students were getting some of the tents from CampusRec
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 23822
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
We do have security for the administration building and have been restricting access to non student facing areas. A good precaution, as when CA was in budget hell and raising tuition, we had hundreds of students try to storm the administration building, but this seems like far less than that so far.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Result of an analyst of 553 protests:
Nearly all Gaza campus protests in the US have been peaceful, study finds.
Nearly all Gaza campus protests in the US have been peaceful, study finds.
Spoiler:
Last edited by Victoria Raverna on Thu May 16, 2024 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
CNN investigated the incident at UCLA:
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/16/us/u ... index.html
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/16/us/u ... index.html
Spoiler:
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42575
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Great. You can see my support for their right to protest and not be beaten by police earlier in the thread.Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 8:43 pm Result of an analyst of 553 protests:
Nearly all Gaza campus protests in the US have been peaceful, study finds.
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 23822
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Cops still doing nothing tho.Victoria Raverna wrote:CNN investigated the incident at UCLA:
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/16/us/u ... index.html
Spoiler:
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Pyperkub
- Posts: 23822
- Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
- Location: NC- that's Northern California
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
One thing I realized the other day. These students are so young they have only known Netanyahu's dickhead Israel going full Authoritarian, undermining Obama and BIden, and undermining the 2-state solution with the Settlements, creating NSO spyware for Governments to assassinate dissidents/journos/other, and have only known Hamas in charge of Palestine, with NO elections.
Obviously, that's not all there is to the conflicts in the area, but when your lens is less than 20 years, Israel looks a lot like Iran.
Obviously, that's not all there is to the conflicts in the area, but when your lens is less than 20 years, Israel looks a lot like Iran.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
- Kurth
- Posts: 6081
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
The first part of that sentence cannot possibly do the work you want it to to sufficiently prevent the second half from being inescapably stupid.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- hepcat
- Posts: 52180
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I think you misunderstood what Pyperkub was trying to say. You have to agree that Netanyahu and his coalition have been the dominant power for quite some time now, and that they have often undermined the work of more reasonable leaders in Israel. Even you yourself have admitted that Netanyahu is a problematic leader. Calling Kub "inescapably stupid" seems unfair in light of that.
Now depoliticized.
- Kurth
- Posts: 6081
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Absolutely, but to compare Israel to Iran . . .? In what rational, informed world would that make any sense?hepcat wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 12:25 pm I think you misunderstood what Pyperkub was trying to say. You have to agree that Netanyahu and his coalition have been the dominant power for quite some time now, and that they have often undermined the work of more reasonable leaders in Israel. Even you yourself have admitted that Netanyahu is a problematic leader. Calling Kub "inescapably stupid" seems unfair in light of that.
And to be clear, I wasn’t trying to say that Pyperkub was “inescapably stupid” (although I get that’s how it came out; sorry!). What I meant was that the generation he was talking about who would look at the history of Israel under Netanyahu and equate it to the Islamic Republic of Iran would be inescapably stupid to make that comparison. It’s ridiculous.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- hepcat
- Posts: 52180
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
It doesn't make sense. I think that's Kub's point. Some of the younger generation are seeing nothing but Netanyahu being a jerk the last 20 years or so and they're equating that (unfairly) with Iran's behavior. They're not as aware of the history of that region and the politics involved as they're getting just awful news, not the hopeful stuff that would sometimes arise under a different set of leaders.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 12:39 pmAbsolutely, but to compare Israel to Iran . . .? In what rational, informed world would that make any sense.hepcat wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 12:25 pm I think you misunderstood what Pyperkub was trying to say. You have to agree that Netanyahu and his coalition have been the dominant power for quite some time now, and that they have often undermined the work of more reasonable leaders in Israel. Even you yourself have admitted that Netanyahu is a problematic leader. Calling Kub "inescapably stupid" seems unfair in light of that.
Now depoliticized.
- Kurth
- Posts: 6081
- Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Portland
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
Well, that would make them terribly misinformed morons. See my post in the “Too Early to be Drinking about 2024” thread (it will always be that to me now).hepcat wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 12:40 pmIt doesn't make sense. I think that's Kub's point. Some of the younger generation are seeing nothing but Netanyahu being a jerk the last 20 years or so and they're equating that (unfairly) with Iran's behavior.Kurth wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 12:39 pmAbsolutely, but to compare Israel to Iran . . .? In what rational, informed world would that make any sense.hepcat wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 12:25 pm I think you misunderstood what Pyperkub was trying to say. You have to agree that Netanyahu and his coalition have been the dominant power for quite some time now, and that they have often undermined the work of more reasonable leaders in Israel. Even you yourself have admitted that Netanyahu is a problematic leader. Calling Kub "inescapably stupid" seems unfair in light of that.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
- Blackhawk
- Posts: 44694
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
- Location: Southwest Indiana
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
If you look into the history, sure. There are more young people who just read/watch the news than there are who actively research the stories. If you just go by the news they've heard over the past couple of decades, Iran seems more tame than history tells us, while Israel seems more monstrous. When it comes right down to it, they'd have heard about significantly more Israeli atrocities and crimes than they have Iranian.
At least that's how I read Pyperkub's statement.
At least that's how I read Pyperkub's statement.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
- Victoria Raverna
- Posts: 5398
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
- Location: Jakarta
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I think to claim that the young people lack knowledge and only know the last 20 years of history is probably wrong and looking down on them. I think the young people (the one that know the reason to protest instead of just joining friends) probably know more than average people in US about the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
In the past, people mostly only got news from mainstream news media which in US are mostly biased against Palestinian and more pro Israel. Same with the US government's official statement which are more pro Israel and against Palestinians. The same is true for news in country like Indonesia where the media are more biased against Israel and pro Palestinians.
Now with the internet and easy access to independence news source. There are more fake news but there are also more news source. Which means now people can get news from more sources and don't just getting them from mainstream media. It is harder to control the news that people consume.
In the past, people mostly only got news from mainstream news media which in US are mostly biased against Palestinian and more pro Israel. Same with the US government's official statement which are more pro Israel and against Palestinians. The same is true for news in country like Indonesia where the media are more biased against Israel and pro Palestinians.
Now with the internet and easy access to independence news source. There are more fake news but there are also more news source. Which means now people can get news from more sources and don't just getting them from mainstream media. It is harder to control the news that people consume.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41538
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I don't think it's saying that young people are less informed or are dumber than prior generations. I think the argument is more that the broad lens through which you learn the history and current events is different for this generation than prior generations. For people coming of age in the 1940s through 1960s, for example, their formative memories of Israel is likely to be the Holocaust, and the Arab invasions of Israel in 1948 and 1967. The general lens that's likely to come out of that is an underdog Israel fighting for peace against warlike neighbors.Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 1:00 pm I think to claim that the young people lack knowledge and only know the last 20 years of history is probably wrong and looking down on them. I think the young people (the one that know the reason to protest instead of just joining friends) probably know more than average people in US about the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
In the past, people mostly only got news from mainstream news media which in US are mostly biased against Palestinian and more pro Israel. Same with the US government's official statement which are more pro Israel and against Palestinians. The same is true for news in country like Indonesia where the media are more biased against Israel and pro Palestinians.
Now with the internet and easy access to independence news source. There are more fake news but there are also more news source. Which means now people can get news from more sources and don't just getting them from mainstream media. It is harder to control the news that people consume.
If you're coming of age in the 2000s+, your lens is more likely to be Israel as a powerful state making violence on subject peoples and neighbors.
It doesn't mean that young people know less or are misinformed, but you figure that's going to color their interpretations of history and current events at least somewhat.
Black Lives Matter.
- Holman
- Posts: 29181
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
- Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
If you're a college student in America today, you almost certainly have had Jewish friends and Jewish teachers/professors.
Condemning what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza seems a lot less antisemitic when those very same Jewish friends and teachers/professors *also* condemn it, which most of them almost certainly do.
Condemning what Netanyahu is doing in Gaza seems a lot less antisemitic when those very same Jewish friends and teachers/professors *also* condemn it, which most of them almost certainly do.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Blackhawk
- Posts: 44694
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
- Location: Southwest Indiana
Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...
I'm not insulting young people, I'm insulting all of us. Something like 70% of Americans don't watch or read any news of any sort whatsoever. Many of those that do only follow current headlines, and don't dig into it - they follow for the drama. That means that, depending on when a particular individual forms their view on something, their knowledge is likely to be completely different.Victoria Raverna wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 1:00 pm I think to claim that the young people lack knowledge and only know the last 20 years of history is probably wrong and looking down on them. I think the young people (the one that know the reason to protest instead of just joining friends) probably know more than average people in US about the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
In the past, people mostly only got news from mainstream news media which in US are mostly biased against Palestinian and more pro Israel. Same with the US government's official statement which are more pro Israel and against Palestinians. The same is true for news in country like Indonesia where the media are more biased against Israel and pro Palestinians.
Now with the internet and easy access to independence news source. There are more fake news but there are also more news source. Which means now people can get news from more sources and don't just getting them from mainstream media. It is harder to control the news that people consume.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)