Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

[Pyperkub]

Counterpoint - without the overarching war on communism/Cold War goals which necessitated appearing to be the good guys, the Civil Rights movement would have been crushed under a boot.

Part of the reason we're where we're at is the loss of that lodestone for our moral compass.

[ImLawBoy]

I never said the Civil Rights movement was monolithic or didn’t have dissent. I said “many” leaders were attentive to how things might play out.

Maybe my impression is different having talked to several religious leaders who marched with and supported MLK — who was the active target of a government deep state propaganda campaign. Despite the public disapproval and pressure of other more radical parties, a group of leaders stuck to nonviolent protest where the disruption and violence by police emphasized the message — the law was unfair and brutal to Blacks.

They were willing to go to jail to prove their point. And there was a strategy on how that would play out. I get no sense of that from these campus protests, which seem similar to the disorganized mess of the Iraq war protests.

The campus protests that are well run and reaching agreements with their schools aren't getting the press that the chaotic ones are. Boring doesn't make headlines.

I read King: A Life a few months back, and it really stressed to me how deeply divisive MLK was in both white and Black America. His strict adherence to the principles of non-violence was not at all popular among many other Black leaders and protesters. With the passing of time we've lost a lot of that nuance in favor of the current narrative.

[Blackhawk]

I also wonder how much of how things are going is third-party messaging intentionally skewing things in a direction that causes chaos and puts blame on the left.

[GreenGoo]

I read King: A Life a few months back, and it really stressed to me how deeply divisive MLK was in both white and Black America. His strict adherence to the principles of non-violence was not at all popular among many other Black leaders and protesters. With the passing of time we've lost a lot of that nuance in favor of the current narrative.

And there was plenty of violence, most directed at the protestors, but not everything. Shockingly /s, the Black Panthers came into existence during this time.

Malcolm X was killed during this time. "Malcolm rejected integration with white America as a worthwhile aim (deriding it as "coffee with a cracker") and particularly opposed non-violence as a means of attaining it."

[Alefroth]

I don't know if the content of the video is fact or Chinese propaganda. I don't know who is the guy in the video. I tried and I can't find any article or video that made the same comparison so I can't say the video is correct or not.

Then what's the point of posting it?

[Victoria Raverna]

I don't know if the content of the video is fact or Chinese propaganda. I don't know who is the guy in the video. I tried and I can't find any article or video that made the same comparison so I can't say the video is correct or not.

Then what's the point of posting it?

Because it is interesting comparison and maybe some of you find it interesting too. And also maybe posters here can comment on if it is accurate or not. The fact checked out or not. Or the guy was lying.

[hepcat]

I don't know if the content of the video is fact or Chinese propaganda. I don't know who is the guy in the video. I tried and I can't find any article or video that made the same comparison so I can't say the video is correct or not.

We, like yourself, only trust news sites that tell us what we want to believe.

Maybe you, not me. When I saw some news, I checked other news source to see if they're reporting the same thing. Now that doesn't guarantee the news are factual but at least that'll minimize "fake news".

Looks like your standards on fake news is starting to decline.

[Victoria Raverna]

We, like yourself, only trust news sites that tell us what we want to believe.

Maybe you, not me. When I saw some news, I checked other news source to see if they're reporting the same thing. Now that doesn't guarantee the news are factual but at least that'll minimize "fake news".

Looks like your standards on fake news is starting to decline.

That was not a news video. But I still tried to check to find something else but I didn't find anything like it.

[hepcat]

You post a LOT of videos that are very similar in presentation. It's discouraging to find out you don't care if they're true or not.

[Victoria Raverna]

You post a LOT of videos that are very similar in presentation. It's discouraging to find out you don't care if they're true or not.

It is like this. You find some interesting article that you think might be interesting for us to discuss here. You then post that here. Then we can discuss it here. We can agree or disagree with it. Isn't the point of having a topic like this in R&P? So we can post things then discuss it. We can share news. We can share opinion or editorial piece. We can disagree or agree with it. We can discuss it or even argue about it.

Now here is another interesting video. An interview with a Rabbi that is not pro-Israel, I think he is reasonable. Agree?

[El Guapo]

You post a LOT of videos that are very similar in presentation. It's discouraging to find out you don't care if they're true or not.

Now here is another interesting video. An interview with a Rabbi that is not pro-Israel, I think he is reasonable. Agree?

I don't know this guy in particular, but FWIW there are a decent number of ultra-orthodox Jews that are strongly anti-Zionist (against the existence of Israel) on religious grounds. Basically they believe that the Messiah is supposed to establish Israel (essentially re-create the ancient Kingdom of Israel), which should also be a monarchical theocracy. So that secular Jews establishing Israel is essentially blasphemous.

[hepcat]

I'm simply going off the standards you claim to adhere to.

Maybe you, not me. When I saw some news, I checked other news source to see if they're reporting the same thing. Now that doesn't guarantee the news are factual but at least that'll minimize "fake news".

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm simply going off the standards you claim to adhere to.

Maybe you, not me. When I saw some news, I checked other news source to see if they're reporting the same thing. Now that doesn't guarantee the news are factual but at least that'll minimize "fake news".

Like I said, I'm doing that. But you understand not everything is news, right?

[hepcat]

A lot of what you post is in the same category. See above video.

Didn't mean to make this into a big thing. Just thought it was odd that you were posting stuff that you know might be propaganda after taking offense earlier to similar claims for other videos of the same bent.

[Victoria Raverna]

A lot of what you post is in the same category. See above video.

Didn't mean to make this into a big thing. Just thought it was odd that you were posting stuff that you know might be propaganda after taking offense earlier to similar claims for other videos of the same bent.

I posted it so if it is a propaganda and a lie, we can discuss and say that it is just a propaganda . And If it is accurate, then maybe we can discuss why it is like that.

[Victoria Raverna]

You post a LOT of videos that are very similar in presentation. It's discouraging to find out you don't care if they're true or not.

Now here is another interesting video. An interview with a Rabbi that is not pro-Israel, I think he is reasonable. Agree?

I don't know this guy in particular, but FWIW there are a decent number of ultra-orthodox Jews that are strongly anti-Zionist (against the existence of Israel) on religious grounds. Basically they believe that the Messiah is supposed to establish Israel (essentially re-create the ancient Kingdom of Israel), which should also be a monarchical theocracy. So that secular Jews establishing Israel is essentially blasphemous.

I know. But is he correct about things like to equate anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism is not good for Jews? I think we discussed that a while ago here if I remember correctly.

[hepcat]

Is there a correct answer?

I posted it so if it is a propaganda and a lie, we can discuss and say that it is just a propaganda .

That usually doesn't end well for people when you don't think it is.

[Victoria Raverna]

Is there a correct answer?

I posted it so if it is a propaganda and a lie, we can discuss and say that it is just a propaganda .

That usually doesn't end well for people when you don't think it is.

Is that true? I even tried to avoid posting anything from Al Jazeera because someone here think all that come out of that news media is propaganda.

[ImLawBoy]

I think I'm going to create a VR vs. hepcat subforum.

[hepcat]

I mean, am I really the only one? Also, I think that compared to others, I'm fairly nice in our exchanges.

[Kraken]

I wonder how much influence the college protests are having on Biden's threat to withhold offensive arms shipments.

[Zarathud]

Zero. Polls might, as Biden is certainly aware he needs to keep all of his constituencies from 2020.

[Victoria Raverna]

A non biased explanation on the student protest that call for divestment by David Chang from CBC News (a Canadian public broadcast service)



I learned a lot from that video and understand more about what the student called for and why it can be hard for university to agree to it. I didn't know about there are states with law/rules that make it impossible to boycott Israel (if I understand correctly).

[Kurth]

I mean, am I really the only one? Also, I think that compared to others, I'm fairly nice in our exchanges.

You're certainly not the only one, but I don't weigh in anymore because I no longer see his posts unless someone is quoting him. It became pretty clear to me a while back that engagement was pointless.

[Holman]

U Penn sent cops in to break up their encampment before 6:00am today.

I don't think there has been real violence, although students' belongings were seized and gratuitously destroyed. Some people attempting to block police vehicles were removed by force.

My wife is an administrator and very sympathetic to the protests. She got a notification about all this and left immediately for campus. (I hope she's not getting herself arrested again.)

[ImLawBoy]

I mean, am I really the only one? Also, I think that compared to others, I'm fairly nice in our exchanges.

You're not the only one, but you win on volume and I didn't think it would land as well with a group vs. an individual.

[hepcat]

I will refrain from engaging then. That's probably for the best anyway.

[Jaymon]

What I don't understand, is what the students, and other protestors in USA, think they are going to accomplish with these protests.

I get it that they are saying "something bad is happening and we don't like it" but WHAT, specifically, is the result they would like to see from these protests?

This isn't Vietnam or Afghanistan, there are no American soldiers which can be pulled back. Israel is a different country and their government is unlikely to change their actions based on the amount of American college kids protesting.

[Smoove_B]

Many of them are calling for university divestment, in terms of a realistic, actionable item related to their school.

[Alefroth]

This isn't Vietnam or Afghanistan, there are no American soldiers which can be pulled back. Israel is a different country and their government is unlikely to change their actions based on the amount of American college kids protesting.

American bombs are killing innocent Palestinians. Stopping that would be a start.

[GreenGoo]

What I don't understand, is what the students, and other protestors in USA, think they are going to accomplish with these protests.

Did you ask them? Because it's pretty easy to find out.

[Holman]

The biggest thing they're doing is trying to raise awareness of the atrocities, thus moving the polls, thus putting pressure on the Dems to do more about it.

This seems to some degree to be working.

[El Guapo]

Many of them are calling for university divestment, in terms of a realistic, actionable item related to their school.

What bothers me about this is that the divestment demands often have little or no ties to the war effort or to military action. For example the Columbia protestors specifically demanded that the university end its dual-degree program with Tel Aviv University.

But...why? It's Tel Aviv, so clearly not part of the occupied territories. It's not like Tel Aviv University is making bombs or has anything to do with the war in Gaza. Demanding the end of any ties to Israel or Israelis is where things veer into antisemitism fast.

[Kraken]

Many of them are calling for university divestment, in terms of a realistic, actionable item related to their school.

What bothers me about this is that the divestment demands often have little or no ties to the war effort or to military action. For example the Columbia protestors specifically demanded that the university end its dual-degree program with Tel Aviv University.

But...why? It's Tel Aviv, so clearly not part of the occupied territories. It's not like Tel Aviv University is making bombs or has anything to do with the war in Gaza. Demanding the end of any ties to Israel or Israelis is where things veer into antisemitism fast.

The MIT protestors demand that the Institute cut its research relationships with the IDF. That sounds reasonable to me.

[El Guapo]

Many of them are calling for university divestment, in terms of a realistic, actionable item related to their school.

What bothers me about this is that the divestment demands often have little or no ties to the war effort or to military action. For example the Columbia protestors specifically demanded that the university end its dual-degree program with Tel Aviv University.

But...why? It's Tel Aviv, so clearly not part of the occupied territories. It's not like Tel Aviv University is making bombs or has anything to do with the war in Gaza. Demanding the end of any ties to Israel or Israelis is where things veer into antisemitism fast.

The MIT protestors demand that the Institute cut its research relationships with the IDF. That sounds reasonable to me.

Yeah, that's different. If there's a direct tie to the military or something like that, that's one thing. It's when the demand is divestiture from anything Israeli or with Israeli individuals that it becomes problematic.

[Victoria Raverna]

Many of them are calling for university divestment, in terms of a realistic, actionable item related to their school.

What bothers me about this is that the divestment demands often have little or no ties to the war effort or to military action. For example the Columbia protestors specifically demanded that the university end its dual-degree program with Tel Aviv University.

But...why? It's Tel Aviv, so clearly not part of the occupied territories. It's not like Tel Aviv University is making bombs or has anything to do with the war in Gaza. Demanding the end of any ties to Israel or Israelis is where things veer into antisemitism fast.

The MIT protestors demand that the Institute cut its research relationships with the IDF. That sounds reasonable to me.

Yeah, that's different. If there's a direct tie to the military or something like that, that's one thing. It's when the demand is divestiture from anything Israeli or with Israeli individuals that it becomes problematic.

I think you can think of as asking for Israel to be sanctioned. Just like not doing business with Russia because of the Ukraine invasion. Not just stop working with Russia military but to boycott and not doing business with Russia.

Most of the university where they came into an agreement with the student protestors, the universities only promised to look at it and try to divest. I don't think any of them have actually divested. That seemed to be enough to calm the protestors.

[Kraken]

Most of the university where they came into an agreement with the student protestors, the universities only promised to look at it and try to divest. I don't think any of them have actually divested. That seemed to be enough to calm the protestors.

...who either just graduated/went on break, or about to. Those schools are hoping that a cease-fire will calm things down before the fall semester starts.

[ImLawBoy]

I'm seeing more and more reports of student encampments ending with negotiated resolutions or just of their own accord (what with the end of semesters and the like). Of course, these reports pop up on social media feeds and aren't making front page headlines and causing breathless opinion pieces.

[Dogstar]

Trump promises to deport foreign students who participate in anti-Israeli protests.

“When I’m president, we will not allow our colleges to be taken over by violent radicals,” he said. “If you come here from another country and try to bring jihadism or anti-Americanism or antisemitism to campuses, we will immediately deport you. You’ll be out of that school.”

[Jaymon]

Stop sending weapons.

That is a specific outcome worthy of protest.


But a USA university cutting ties with Israel universities, I'm not so sure about. It just doesn't sound, to me, like it would have any impact. I mean, there would be impact to the universities yes, but it would not change what is happening in Gaza. The Israel government, in my opinion, would not consider that an important factor in determining if the war should continue.