NY vs. Trump - Hush Money Trial

[Zaxxon]

How can you say the court is so powerless when Trump is literally on trial? The jury can hold him accountable at the end of the trial.

The court is powerless to hold Trump accountable in the way that any other defendant would be held accountable for their actions during a trial.

[TheMix]

And other countries are promoting that they're not equal and free?

I guess maybe that was just propaganda.

Oof, you're becoming a master of the passive aggressive Anti American tirade.

No lie. The veneer has definitely fallen off.

[hepcat]

I'm waiting for him to call us "Imperialist Dogs"....but in a nice way!

[Carpet_pissr]

The judge also told Trump’s lawyer at sidebar: I’m doing this at sidebar because I don’t want to embarrass your client.

That’s almost an exact quote.

[hepcat]

From what I read, that was about the audible cussing Trump was tossing out during Stormy's testimony. I would think he'd be proud of that if the judge pointed it out, not embarrassed.

[Victoria Raverna]

And other countries are promoting that they're not equal and free?

I guess maybe that was just propaganda.

Oof, you're becoming a master of the passive aggressive Anti American tirade.

I think you got it wrong. I seriously thought US is a great country. A strong and just country and leader of the free world. But I guess I was just naive or uninformed and consumed too much Hollywood movies.

I didn't know about the discrimination against black people in the past. Also I was taught that communism is evil at school. So USSR and China are automatically bad because they're communist. And because of that then US as the leader of the anti communist countries is good. Indonesia banned Communist party and teaching since 1966 and since then the teaching of the evil of communism is part of school teaching. It was during my time studying in US that I started to realize that US is not perfect. I was in LA during the Rodney King incident and the protests/riots after that.

[hepcat]

And other countries are promoting that they're not equal and free?

I guess maybe that was just propaganda.

Oof, you're becoming a master of the passive aggressive Anti American tirade.

I think you got it wrong. I seriously thought US is a great country. A strong and just country and leader of the free world. But I guess I was just naive or uninformed and consumed too much Hollywood movies.

We're creeping closer to "Imperialist Dogs".

Back on topic:

NSFW comment during trial that made me chuckle and wince at the same time.

Spoiler:

[Carpet_pissr]

And other countries are promoting that they're not equal and free?

I guess maybe that was just propaganda.

Oof, you're becoming a master of the passive aggressive Anti American tirade.

I think you got it wrong. I seriously thought US is a great country. A strong and just country and leader of the free world. But I guess I was just naive or uninformed and consumed too much Hollywood movies.

We're creeping closer to "Imperialist Dogs".

Back on topic:

NSFW comment during trial that made me chuckle and wince at the same time.

Spoiler:

That's NSFW?

[hepcat]

I'm being cautious! I don't know how old TheMix is! I've caught him chuckling at one of my jokes in the past, so it's possible he's 6.

[TheMix]

I'm bring cautious! I don't know how old TheMix is! I've caught him chuckling at one of my jokes in the past, so it's possible he's 6.

I wish!

(Well, maybe not quite that young. Also, as dbt has shown us, the older you get, the more your sense of humor regresses! )

[TheMix]

Oh, and also, I usually laugh at all of your jokes. I just don't always post a response.

[Unagi]

And other countries are promoting that they're not equal and free?

I guess maybe that was just propaganda.

Oof, you're becoming a master of the passive aggressive Anti American tirade.

I think you got it wrong. I seriously thought US is a great country. A strong and just country and leader of the free world. But I guess I was just naive or uninformed and consumed too much Hollywood movies.

The thing is, VR - a shit ton of US citizens feel let down by the current state of our country. Many of us feel we were naive or uninformed - and now see the US differently. How ON EARTH you don't have that understanding by now is annoying the fuck out of me. We have been talking openly about it for about 7-8 years now. For fuck sake.

You have this ability - by way of your posting endless slights and "Well, I guess maybe _________ " comments - to really come across as an outsider throwing stones. It's a massive turn-off for me, and it would seem a lot of people.
Maybe you are just wounded. You "really really really really thought the US was amazeballs". Well, guess what - it's a real place. And it's still better than a lot of places. Not as many places as before.

At the risk of sounding un-self-aware, I just want to tell you that your method of communicating here, on this forum, it truly sucks.

[hepcat]

Oh, and also, I usually laugh at all of your jokes. I just don't always post a response.

Now THAT'S propaganda.

[Victoria Raverna]

The thing is, VR - a shit ton of US citizens feel let down by the current state of our country. Many of us feel we were naive or uninformed - and now see the US differently. How ON EARTH you don't have that understanding by now is annoying the fuck out of me. We have been talking openly about it for about 7-8 years now. For fuck sake.

I understand that. LIke you I'm upset about Trump. I'm upset about the current state of US. I know I'm not alone, which is a surprise to me when I apparently offended people by my post. People who I thought upset about the current situation and upset about Trump like me. Is it because I'm an outsider to you all? Like it is okay for black people to call each other with the N word, but not for non black to use it? It is not okay when outsider like me to post them?

You have this ability - by way of your posting endless slights and "Well, I guess maybe _________ " comments - to really come across as an outsider throwing stones. It's a massive turn-off for me, and it would seem a lot of people.
Maybe you are just wounded. You "really really really really thought the US was amazeballs". Well, guess what - it's a real place. And it's still better than a lot of places. Not as many places as before.

I used to think that I wanted to immigrate to US and become a citizen but not anymore. Mostly because my feared of safety for me and my family. Too much school shootings and there are more anti-Asian incidents in recent days. Or at least that was the impression I got from news. Maybe nothing changed but we just heard more of it now because of internet?

At the risk of sounding un-self-aware, I just want to tell you that your method of communicating here, on this forum, it truly sucks.

I apologize about that. It is not my intention to do that. It is just my emotion sometime (or often) got the best of me.

[hepcat]

In the past you've either insuated or outright written that you dislike Indonesia because it's a repressive and bigoted country, and you dislike Islam for similar reasons. Is there any institution you do like/value/shows promise (bearing in mind that all human constructs are bound to be flawed to some degree)?

[Victoria Raverna]

In the past you've either insuated or outright written that you dislike Indonesia because it's a repressive and bigoted country in many ways, and you dislike Islam for similar reasons. Is there any institution you do like (bearing in mind that all human constructs are bound to be flawed to some degree)?

I like and admire someone like Sanders. Hopefully I'll not find out later that he has a skeleton in his closet.

I think I also mostly like US's Democratic Party. As for Indonesian's political party, I don't like them or maybe I just don't trust them.

Can't think of any that I like or trust. Not church. And of course not Islam institution, like I said/wrote, I have a bias against Islam or maybe a bit of Islamphobia. I don't like Buddhism. I don't like people worshiping Confucius. I don't know enough about Hinduism to like it or not. I don't like or dislike Jewish. After the current Gaza conflict, I hate Israel but I don't equate Israel with Jews.

I guess at this point, I just don't like any institution.

[hepcat]

That does clear some things up, I will say.

America is far from perfect, but I still think the majority of us are trying to be better. That we are given the freedom to try to be better (for the most part) is why I still believe in it. Any country with a degree of freedom similar to ours is going to sometimes suffer at the hands of those of us with baser, less noble aspirations who share in that freedom. But that shouldn't define the institution itself.

[Zarathud]

The U.S. courts are flawed, but the hyperbole about the system not working at all is bullshit. Trump is in multiple courtrooms facing charges with differing difficulties of proof. He’s already lost 2 cases. While I believe personally Trump committed all that he is charged with (and more), a system of laws has a process to determine the guilt and punishment. It’s ugly, it’s slow, it doesn’t always the the answer we want, but it exists.

The right remedy is for voters to stop supporting Trump — he’s done worse than Gary Hart or Howard Dean. But apparently there are a lot of die hard Republicans with closed minds who don’t pay attention to facts. This was true more than 25 years ago, so it shouldn’t be surprising to anyone.

[gbasden]

The U.S. courts are flawed, but the hyperbole about the system not working at all is bullshit.

I think it's a lot less bullshit than you do, obviously. Just this week Cannon seems to have handwaved away Trump's documents trial. He's been known as Teflon Don for years because he's apparently immune to being held to account for the things he does. Are you seriously arguing that the U.S. doesn't have a problem with the rich and powerful being treated differently than the rest of us?

[Blackhawk]

The U.S. courts are flawed, but the hyperbole about the system not working at all is bullshit.

I think it's a lot less bullshit than you do, obviously. Just this week Cannon seems to have handwaved away Trump's documents trial. He's been known as Teflon Don for years because he's apparently immune to being held to account for the things he does. Are you seriously arguing that the U.S. doesn't have a problem with the rich and powerful being treated differently than the rest of us?

The rich are treated differently, and for a bunch of reasons. Part of it is that the system can be influenced, with money and power being the most effective tool for doing it. But even then it's simply the resources - rich people can hire teams of the most highly-effective attorneys in the nation, while the poor get Lionel Hutz. It's the same issue that exists with getting sick. I don't get the same treatment for a problem with Medicare that Jeff Bezos gets with his billions.

Part of the problem (not the whole problem - and certainly not Cannon, who is a political issue as much as a justice system issue), I think, is that we've got a one-size-fits-all justice system (at least in theory.) Financial penalties that are crippling to us are meaningless to them. $1000 for contempt of court would throw my entire family into a spin. For the rich? It's like dropping a dime out of a hole in your pocket. But if you set the penalties on contempt of court to a level that would hurt Trump, it would absolutely destroy the rest of us. "Hey, kids - daddy made the judge mad, and now we're half a million dollars in debt. We're going to have to cut back on the food budget."

The system, as it is now, just isn't suitable for the income gap this nation has.

But even then, I still think Trump is a much more complicated case than the rest of us - or even other millionaires - would be. Throw Harvey Weinstein in jail and... that's the whole thing. Hell, throw Zuckerberg in jail and that's pretty much the whole thing. But throwing Trump in jail isn't the same as throwing me, or Zuckerberg in jail. Between the media circus and the potential for for violence, throwing Trump in jail for the weekend would be a huge undertaking with significant potential consequences. And that's not even touching on the whole 'presumptive nominee' aspect of it. (And yes, I'm aware that some of my examples were sent to prison rather than jail, but it's just meant as representative of the criminal rich.)

In the end, I'm actually OK with the judge's hesitancy to jail Trump. There are reasons beyond "he's rich and powerful." I'm OK with situational leniency during the trial. It's the end result of the main crimes that matter the most.

[Carpet_pissr]

And other countries are promoting that they're not equal and free?

I guess maybe that was just propaganda.

Oof, you're becoming a master of the passive aggressive Anti American tirade.

I think you got it wrong. I seriously thought US is a great country. A strong and just country and leader of the free world. But I guess I was just naive or uninformed and consumed too much Hollywood movies.

The thing is, VR - a shit ton of US citizens feel let down by the current state of our country. Many of us feel we were naive or uninformed - and now see the US differently. How ON EARTH you don't have that understanding by now is annoying the fuck out of me. We have been talking openly about it for about 7-8 years now. For fuck sake.

You have this ability - by way of your posting endless slights and "Well, I guess maybe _________ " comments - to really come across as an outsider throwing stones. It's a massive turn-off for me, and it would seem a lot of people.
Maybe you are just wounded. You "really really really really thought the US was amazeballs". Well, guess what - it's a real place. And it's still better than a lot of places. Not as many places as before.

At the risk of sounding un-self-aware, I just want to tell you that your method of communicating here, on this forum, it truly sucks.

Well put...I really think you have some great ideas and input, VR, but it really is the WAY you communicate those ideas that kind of just wears people down, because it does have a very passive-aggressive feel, as mentioned above. IMO there is no need for that here. There are I think enough mature, critical thinkers to take a straightforward, negative opinion (outside, inside, doens't matter...I think) and deal with it fairly...for the most part. We, like the US, are not flying pink unicorns and rainbows and are prone to human instincts and faults. I think you have sometimes been overly criticized in the past, but I have also seen you be overly critical and/or present things in a way that prompts...disdain.

Just say what you want to say straightforwardly, even if it's negative. No need for the mind or verbal or video (!) (youtube) games.

[LawBeefaroni]

In the end, I'm actually OK with the judge's hesitancy to jail Trump. There are reasons beyond "he's rich and powerful." I'm OK with situational leniency during the trial. It's the end result of the main crimes that matter the most.

But if they can't deter him from defying the gag order, which is meant to stop him from influencing the jury, he is directly influencing the end result in his favor. That's why it's important.

He needs a deterrence. Failing that, he needs to be cut off from the ability to post shit in violation of the gag order.

[Jaymon]

It does make one yearn for the 'day fine' system implemented in a few European countries, where fines are based on your income, instead of a fixed amount. Yes that would be a hard sell to implement here. But as long as we are dreaming about how to hold the rich accountable, we can add this to the list.

[Zarathud]

Those with access and wealth have often received privileges—but a jury should level the playing field.

The jury may decide they’ve had enough of his bullshit and be influenced against him. There are a lot of assumptions being made. A jury system is messy, and takes time. But I’m hopeful they are open minded enough to see the truth.

[gbasden]

Well put...I really think you have some great ideas and input, VR, but it really is the WAY you communicate those ideas that kind of just wears people down, because it does have a very passive-aggressive feel, as mentioned above. IMO there is no need for that here. There are I think enough mature, critical thinkers to take a straightforward, negative opinion (outside, inside, doens't matter...I think) and deal with it fairly...for the most part. We, like the US, are not flying pink unicorns and rainbows and are prone to human instincts and faults. I think you have sometimes been overly criticized in the past, but I have also seen you be overly critical and/or present things in a way that prompts...disdain.

Just say what you want to say straightforwardly, even if it's negative. No need for the mind or verbal or video (!) (youtube) games.

I think it's often forgotten that despite how good VRs English is, it's not his native tongue. I think he needs to be cut some slack - I'm sure if I was trying to communicate in either of my second languages, being passive aggressive wouldn't even enter my mind over simply being understood.

[Blackhawk]

Well put...I really think you have some great ideas and input, VR, but it really is the WAY you communicate those ideas that kind of just wears people down, because it does have a very passive-aggressive feel, as mentioned above. IMO there is no need for that here. There are I think enough mature, critical thinkers to take a straightforward, negative opinion (outside, inside, doens't matter...I think) and deal with it fairly...for the most part. We, like the US, are not flying pink unicorns and rainbows and are prone to human instincts and faults. I think you have sometimes been overly criticized in the past, but I have also seen you be overly critical and/or present things in a way that prompts...disdain.

Just say what you want to say straightforwardly, even if it's negative. No need for the mind or verbal or video (!) (youtube) games.

I think it's often forgotten that despite how good VRs English is, it's not his native tongue. I think he needs to be cut some slack - I'm sure if I was trying to communicate in either of my second languages, being passive aggressive wouldn't even enter my mind over simply being understood.

Fair point, but I will still say this: If you present something to a room full of people whose opinion you respect enough to present things to them, and every one of them reacts with unexpected negativity, it's probably time to consider that, maybe, something's off. If it really is a language issue, then VR needs to acknowledge that there's a problem somewhere that's changing the intended message. Instead, he's doubled down on every point.

[Zarathud]

It’s method not language. I wish it was a verbal misunderstanding.

Most of the time, there’s just a link to something pushed by social media that’s reposted. It often even doesn’t say what is claimed. That annoys me more than the transparently passive questions trying to set up a gotcha response.

[LordMortis]

I thought he was eager to take the stand to get the truth out there. I guess not so much. Defense just rest. Eager to take the stand like he was eager to publish his taxes. But that will be forgotten like all his other bluster.

[Zaxxon]

I thought he was eager to take the stand to get the truth out there. I guess not so much. Defense just rest. Eager to take the stand like he was eager to publish his taxes. But that will be forgotten like all his other bluster.

He can--and I want to be clear--never take the stand. Can you even imagine how quickly he'd torpedo his own case (any of them)?

[El Guapo]

I thought he was eager to take the stand to get the truth out there. I guess not so much. Defense just rest. Eager to take the stand like he was eager to publish his taxes. But that will be forgotten like all his other bluster.

I would love to testify. I'm not afraid to testify at all. I'm just not going to out of fear. You see, they do a terrible thing when you testify which is, they write it down, and we don't like that.

Part of what I love about James Austin Johnson's impression of Trump is that he captures what Trump does all the time, which is lie boldly and then admit the truth shortly thereafter as an aside.

[hepcat]

The whole kerfuffle between Judge Merchan and Robert Costello was just insane. Good lord, Costello's a lawyer. How does he not know he's hurting the person he's trying to protect by being such an incredible asshole to the judge? Or does he just not care?

A key witness for the defense, Costello said "Jeez!" in an irritated tone when Merchan repeatedly sustained the prosecution's objections to his testimony. After another objection was sustained he sighed dramatically.

Merchan cleared the jury from the courtroom and confronted Costello about his breach of courtroom decorum. Merchan then asked Costello, "Are you staring me down right now?" He then removed the press and spectators and warned Costello.

"I'm putting you on notice that your conduct is contemptuous," Merchan said. "If you try to stare me down one more time, I will remove you from the stand."

[Kurth]

As the defense rests this morning, two things to note:

(1) I'm becoming increasingly concerned with the repeated assurances from Trump's defense team that they are confidant this case will end with a hung jury. That's troubling. It's not like a hung jury is a common occurrence. I worry that they're picking up on something from a specific juror that is giving them that confidence. I hope not.

(2) I wonder if people realize that a guilty verdict in this case doesn't necessarily mean any kind of prison sentence for Trump. He could just get probation and no jail time at all. In fact, I'm not sure that's not the most probable outcome if he's found guilty. And I'd imagine that wouldn't even be a speed bump to him on the way to his second term in the White House. Nuts.

[Smoove_B]

Zero (as in no) chance of him seeing the inside of a jail cell. It's never going to happen.

This is the only case that will be adjudicated before the election now, right? All others have been delayed or shelved indefinitely?

[hepcat]

Defense rests without calling Trump to the stand. That's probably a good idea. Although I was surprised to see him take the stand during his real estate fraud trial.

[Alefroth]

I thought he was eager to take the stand to get the truth out there. I guess not so much. Defense just rest. Eager to take the stand like he was eager to publish his taxes. But that will be forgotten like all his other bluster.

I wonder how that affects the jury, seeing someone who never misses a chance to jump in front of a camera to proclaim their unfair persecution, but won't take the stand in their own defense.

[hepcat]

NPR just talked about this. I guess it's common for a defendant in a criminal trial to not take the stand.

[Kraken]

Zero (as in no) chance of him seeing the inside of a jail cell. It's never going to happen.

This is the only case that will be adjudicated before the election now, right? All others have been delayed or shelved indefinitely?

This was the least serious of the crimes he committed. He won't be held accountable for stealing documents or inciting a riot until after the election, if then.

[Alefroth]

NPR just talked about this. I guess it's common for a defendant in a criminal trial to not take the stand.

I bet it's not as common for a defendant to go on TV numerous times and say they will testify and all they can do is tell the truth.

[Jaymann]

NPR just talked about this. I guess it's common for a defendant in a criminal trial to not take the stand.

I bet it's not as common for a defendant to go on TV numerous times and say they will testify and all they can do is tell the truth.

He will claim that "they" refused to let him testify in 3,2,1...

[LordMortis]

He will claim that "they" refused to let him testify in 3,2,1...

He wanted to but his lawyers wouldn't let him. What can you do? Just like his taxes.