Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Victoria Raverna]

I mean, you insult others who disagree with you by joking they only trust their facebook friends for news, but get this upset when someone dings you back jokingly?

I didn't quote someone and changed what they wrote.

[hepcat]

I'm low key fascinated by how difficult it is to maintain a civilized, informative discussion on Israel / Palestine. On all sides, mind you.

It's a hot button topic, that's for sure. Have we always been fair to VR? No. Has she always been fair to us? No. Do both sides use a conditioner that replaces lost pH balance at a restorative level? Unknown.

[hepcat]

I mean, you insult others who disagree with you by joking they only trust their facebook friends for news, but get this upset when someone dings you back jokingly?

I didn't quote someone and changed what they wrote.

No, but you did try to downplay someone's opinion of news sources by belittling them as only believing in facebook friends. We insult each other in different ways. It's what makes humanity unique.

If you want to act the injured party, hide the baseball bat first.

[Victoria Raverna]

I mean, you insult others who disagree with you by joking they only trust their facebook friends for news, but get this upset when someone dings you back jokingly?

I didn't quote someone and changed what they wrote.

No, but you did try to downplay someone's opinion of news sources by belittling them as only believing in facebook friends. We insult each other in different ways. It's what makes humanity unique.

There is a different between changing what someone wrote and what I did.

Let me ask you seriously, how do you get your news if you don't trust biased source? What news source doesn't have bias?

[Isgrimnur]

I mean, you insult others who disagree with you by joking they only trust their facebook friends for news, but get this upset when someone dings you back jokingly?

I didn't quote someone and changed what they wrote.

It's been a running gag here for over 20 years.

[hepcat]

There is a different between changing what someone wrote and what I did.

No, there isn't. The FTFY has been a staple of retorts on OO since the days of Andrew Jackson's presidency. Back then, dbt was the only member, but he used it on himself more than once.

I mean, you insult others who disagree with you by joking they only trust their facebook friends for news, but get this upset when someone dings you back jokingly?

I didn't quote someone and changed what they wrote.

It's been a running gag here for over 20 years.

Edit: I wrote this reply long after Hepcat replied and thus this is not a legitimate BAM.

Let me ask you seriously, how do you get your news if you don't trust biased source? What news source doesn't have bias?

No news sites are unbiased. The best solution is to source your news from a multitude of sites, as you claim to. That's why sometimes people accuse you of not doing exactly that considering the enormous amount of drive by youtube video postings with the exact same, unfaltering message that you make.

[Victoria Raverna]

I mean, you insult others who disagree with you by joking they only trust their facebook friends for news, but get this upset when someone dings you back jokingly?

I didn't quote someone and changed what they wrote.

It's been a running gag here for over 20 years.

I don't think it is acceptable to change what someone wrote to the opposite of what they wrote. Even if it is a joke, that is not something anyone should do.

[Zarathud]

Have you not been paying attention to getting Mortoned or FTFY, VR?

I’m pretty sure the U.S. protests and refusal of Hamas to a temporary ceasefire has forced Israel’s hand to invade Rafa. You can’t keep threatening something forever, and Israel simply doesn’t care about the consequences if they can either bring back the hostages or defeat Hamas.

[El Guapo]

Have you not been paying attention to getting Mortoned or FTFY, VR?

I’m pretty sure the U.S. protests and refusal of Hamas to a temporary ceasefire has forced Israel’s hand to invade Rafa. You can’t keep threatening something forever, and Israel simply doesn’t care about the consequences if they can either bring back the hostages or defeat Hamas.

I'd love to read relatively objective pro and cons for Israel of invading Rafah. In particular, what is realistic in terms of what Israel could achieve militarily? Like I assume there are Hamas fighters that Israel could plausibly kill / capture. But could Israel effectively 'destroy' Hamas if it invades Rafah? Understanding that it can't prevent assorted people with guns running around calling themselves 'Hamas', but could it substantially destroy Hamas as a fighting force / organization?

Conversely, is this something where Netanyahu may feel like he needs to do it to 'look tough' domestically but it won't make a substantial difference in terms of the post-war reality on the ground?

[Victoria Raverna]

Have you not been paying attention to getting Mortoned or FTFY, VR?

I’m pretty sure the U.S. protests and refusal of Hamas to a temporary ceasefire has forced Israel’s hand to invade Rafa. You can’t keep threatening something forever, and Israel simply doesn’t care about the consequences if they can either bring back the hostages or defeat Hamas.

Actually if you watched Al Jazeera's yesterday news, you'll know the more likely immediate reason for it. Hamas attacked and killed 3 Israeli soldiers by firing from Rafah.

The biased Al Jazeera was one of the first to report the Hamas attack.

[hepcat]

I don't think it is acceptable to change what someone wrote to the opposite of what they wrote. Even if it is a joke, that is not something anyone should do.

When in Rome....

[Victoria Raverna]

Have you not been paying attention to getting Mortoned or FTFY, VR?

I’m pretty sure the U.S. protests and refusal of Hamas to a temporary ceasefire has forced Israel’s hand to invade Rafa. You can’t keep threatening something forever, and Israel simply doesn’t care about the consequences if they can either bring back the hostages or defeat Hamas.

I'd love to read relatively objective pro and cons for Israel of invading Rafah. In particular, what is realistic in terms of what Israel could achieve militarily? Like I assume there are Hamas fighters that Israel could plausibly kill / capture. But could Israel effectively 'destroy' Hamas if it invades Rafah? Understanding that it can't prevent assorted people with guns running around calling themselves 'Hamas', but could it substantially destroy Hamas as a fighting force / organization?

Conversely, is this something where Netanyahu may feel like he needs to do it to 'look tough' domestically but it won't make a substantial difference in terms of the post-war reality on the ground?

I think any Hamas fighter that want to avoid being killed by Israel are going to move out of the area with the civilians. It is a problem for Israel. If they don't give warning about the attack, it'll look bad for them with the world are focusing on Israel's conduct. If they give warning, that just give Hamas an advance notice to escape.

[Alefroth]

If this video is factual

If you ever need a sig.

[Dogstar]

Romney asks why the narrative has been so bad for Israel on Gaza, and Blinken responds that it's been social media. Romney helpfully adds at the end that this was a factor in Congress in terms of shutting down TikTok. To be fair to Romney, I think he meant disinformation in general, not just information that's negative towards Israel or information that contradicts TPTB's narrative. Nonetheless, it's not a great look. Blinken is right that a lot of nuance and background information is lost when considering the Gaza situation -- but social media also brings pictures and videos right to the American public, and the globe, so it's harder to dispute or portray some things in a more favorable light. (The IDF didn't do themselves any favors when some of their own soldiers posted to TikTok.) It's also not great in terms of how it plays with American youth that heavily use TikTok, because it's not hard to paint this as information/narrative suppression. It's definitely not pro-free speech.

[Dogstar]

Really, really hope this is true and the ceasefire happens.

[El Guapo]

Have you not been paying attention to getting Mortoned or FTFY, VR?

I’m pretty sure the U.S. protests and refusal of Hamas to a temporary ceasefire has forced Israel’s hand to invade Rafa. You can’t keep threatening something forever, and Israel simply doesn’t care about the consequences if they can either bring back the hostages or defeat Hamas.

I'd love to read relatively objective pro and cons for Israel of invading Rafah. In particular, what is realistic in terms of what Israel could achieve militarily? Like I assume there are Hamas fighters that Israel could plausibly kill / capture. But could Israel effectively 'destroy' Hamas if it invades Rafah? Understanding that it can't prevent assorted people with guns running around calling themselves 'Hamas', but could it substantially destroy Hamas as a fighting force / organization?

Conversely, is this something where Netanyahu may feel like he needs to do it to 'look tough' domestically but it won't make a substantial difference in terms of the post-war reality on the ground?

I think any Hamas fighter that want to avoid being killed by Israel are going to move out of the area with the civilians. It is a problem for Israel. If they don't give warning about the attack, it'll look bad for them with the world are focusing on Israel's conduct. If they give warning, that just give Hamas an advance notice to escape.

Broadly speaking that makes sense to me, but I also assume that there are things that Israel can do to try to stop that (albeit imperfectly), as well as various Hamas counter-measures. Basically understanding that no one here (I think) is a military tactics expert, what are the optimistic and pessimistic arguments on a Rafah invasion.

[hepcat]

Really, really hope this is true and the ceasefire happens.

As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't believe anything that Hamas says when it comes to a ceasefire. They'd let every single man, woman and child in that region die if it meant the world would support and fund them. There's a reason the heads of Hamas live like kings....far, far away from Gaza.

[El Guapo]

Really, really hope this is true and the ceasefire happens.

As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't believe anything that Hamas says when it comes to a ceasefire. They'd let every single man, woman and child in that region die if it meant the world would support and fund them. There's a reason the heads of Hamas live like kings....far, far away from Gaza.

There are also reports that the U.S. is leaning heavily on Qatar to expel Hamas leadership if they don't agree to the current ceasefire terms, which (if true) may be impacting their thinking.

That said, there's a ways to go from "reports that Hamas leadership is agreeing to a ceasefire" to a ceasefire being in place and followed, and many ways that things can fall apart between here and there.

[Kraken]

Has she always been fair to us?

("she" is a he.)

[hepcat]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn someone had corrected me ages ago when I referred to VR as a he.

[Kraken]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn someone had corrected me ages ago when I referred to VR as a he.

Pretty sure he corrected me many years ago. "Victoria" is a female name here, but not there. Hope s/he will chime in and clear it up for us.

[hepcat]

Doesn't matter. I'll just FTFY it to make me right.

(i keed, I keed....but I won't be doing that again if it's something this person takes such offense to. considering it's been used for decades around here, i honestly didn't think it would result in going to 11 on their part)

edit: never mind:

Personally I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that "Victoria Raverna" is apparently a man.

It was a name I used when I found out that people were nicer to "girl" in MMORPG.

[YellowKing]

It was a name I used when I found out that people were nicer to "girl" in MMORPG.

To be fair, that's why I always play girls in MMORPGs too. Also so I don't have to look at a man's butt for hundreds of hours.

[Blackhawk]

Then what is reliable news source for him or you? Your facebook friends?

See? You have to resort to childish insults when we refuse to agree with your views.

This is a big part of why people have turned so against you. In your mind, the only options seem to be "VR's answer" and "wrong."

[hepcat]

It was a name I used when I found out that people were nicer to "girl" in MMORPG.

To be fair, that's why I always play girls in MMORPGs too. Also so I don't have to look at a man's butt for hundreds of hours.

But you CHOOSE to though, right?

[Pyperkub]

I'm low key fascinated by how difficult it is to maintain a civilized, informative discussion on Israel / Palestine. On all sides, mind you.

IMHO, as of now, there are no good guys. Only evil people with power, and helpless victims - on all sides, and no good solutions at this time. And all in a region with so many smaller conflicts ready to explode into a much larger conflict, with many more victims, just about all of whom are helpless to the whims of others.

I have yet to see anything which could ever lead to a lasting peace in the region, but I do get an ever-increasing feeling that the run-up to world war 1 is the parallel we're seeing, and some small event will bring things to the same calamitous head.

[Kurth]

I'm low key fascinated by how difficult it is to maintain a civilized, informative discussion on Israel / Palestine. On all sides, mind you.

IMHO, as of now, there are no good guys. Only evil people with power, and helpless victims - on all sides, and no good solutions at this time. And all in a region with so many smaller conflicts ready to explode into a much larger conflict, with many more victims, just about all of whom are helpless to the whims of others.

I have yet to see anything which could ever lead to a lasting peace in the region, but I do get an ever-increasing feeling that the run-up to world war 1 is the parallel we're seeing, and some small event will bring things to the same calamitous head.

I don't think a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestinian dispute overall is unachievable. In fact, the two sides have come incredibly close in the past based on a 2-state solution (see the Oslo Accords). But peace will never happen so long as the Arab states (+Iran) continue to prefer for the dispute to continue. As was pointed out earlier - follow the money. But a significant impediment to peace is the constant flow of financial and material support to armed Palestinian factions from other nations that have a vested interest in seeing the dispute fester.

In terms of peace with Hamas? I think that's out of the question. Israel will never make peace with Hamas. The leaders of Hamas - even those hiding away in Qatar - are all dead men.

[Victoria Raverna]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn someone had corrected me ages ago when I referred to VR as a he.

Pretty sure he corrected me many years ago. "Victoria" is a female name here, but not there. Hope s/he will chime in and clear it up for us.

Victoria is the name I used to play games back when using female name is better for MMO.

[Pyperkub]

I'm low key fascinated by how difficult it is to maintain a civilized, informative discussion on Israel / Palestine. On all sides, mind you.

IMHO, as of now, there are no good guys. Only evil people with power, and helpless victims - on all sides, and no good solutions at this time. And all in a region with so many smaller conflicts ready to explode into a much larger conflict, with many more victims, just about all of whom are helpless to the whims of others.

I have yet to see anything which could ever lead to a lasting peace in the region, but I do get an ever-increasing feeling that the run-up to world war 1 is the parallel we're seeing, and some small event will bring things to the same calamitous head.

I don't think a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestinian dispute overall is unachievable. In fact, the two sides have come incredibly close in the past based on a 2-state solution (see the Oslo Accords). But peace will never happen so long as the Arab states (+Iran) continue to prefer for the dispute to continue. As was pointed out earlier - follow the money. But a significant impediment to peace is the constant flow of financial and material support to armed Palestinian factions from other nations that have a vested interest in seeing the dispute fester.

In terms of peace with Hamas? I think that's out of the question. Israel will never make peace with Hamas. The leaders of Hamas - even those hiding away in Qatar - are all dead men.

Given current Israeli politics, Bibi would never sign the Oslo Accords or anything like them, nor would he follow them, and I can't help but think that in the next 10 years, armed Palestinian factions will do nothing but grow, which will further radicalize Israeli and Palestinian politics. Throw in the external forces, and this really starts to look like that pre-WW I powderkeg.

[hepcat]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn someone had corrected me ages ago when I referred to VR as a he.

Pretty sure he corrected me many years ago. "Victoria" is a female name here, but not there. Hope s/he will chime in and clear it up for us.

Victoria is the name I used to play games back when using female name is better for MMO.

That's funny as I use the name Mrs. Kraken for the same reason.

[Victoria Raverna]

I'm low key fascinated by how difficult it is to maintain a civilized, informative discussion on Israel / Palestine. On all sides, mind you.

IMHO, as of now, there are no good guys. Only evil people with power, and helpless victims - on all sides, and no good solutions at this time. And all in a region with so many smaller conflicts ready to explode into a much larger conflict, with many more victims, just about all of whom are helpless to the whims of others.

I have yet to see anything which could ever lead to a lasting peace in the region, but I do get an ever-increasing feeling that the run-up to world war 1 is the parallel we're seeing, and some small event will bring things to the same calamitous head.

I don't think a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestinian dispute overall is unachievable. In fact, the two sides have come incredibly close in the past based on a 2-state solution (see the Oslo Accords). But peace will never happen so long as the Arab states (+Iran) continue to prefer for the dispute to continue. As was pointed out earlier - follow the money. But a significant impediment to peace is the constant flow of financial and material support to armed Palestinian factions from other nations that have a vested interest in seeing the dispute fester.

In terms of peace with Hamas? I think that's out of the question. Israel will never make peace with Hamas. The leaders of Hamas - even those hiding away in Qatar - are all dead men.

Agree, but I think the "unconditional" support from US and other western countries also contribute to them. If there is less military support for Israel, I think they'll have more motivation to compromise for peace. Of course that is still not going to work if the other side don't want peace.

[Isgrimnur]

[Victoria Raverna]

Really, really hope this is true and the ceasefire happens.

Israel rejected it:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pales ... 4aa4be53e0

JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas announced its acceptance Monday of an Egyptian-Qatari cease-fire proposal, but Israel said the deal did not meet its “core demands” and that it was pushing ahead with an assault on the southern Gaza city of Rafah. Still, Israel said it would continue negotiations.

The high-stakes diplomatic moves and military brinkmanship left a glimmer of hope alive — but only barely — for an accord that could bring at least a pause in the 7-month-old war that has devastated the Gaza Strip. Hanging over the wrangling was the threat of an all-out Israeli assault on Rafah, a move the United States strongly opposes and that aid groups warn will be disastrous for some 1.4 million Palestinians taking refuge there.

Hamas’s abrupt acceptance of the cease-fire deal came hours after Israel ordered an evacuation of some 100,000 Palestinians from eastern neighborhoods of Rafah, signaling an invasion was imminent.

The Israeli military said it was conducting “targeted strikes” against Hamas in eastern Rafah. Soon after, Israeli tanks entered Rafah, reaching as close as 200 meters (yards) from Rafah’s crossing with neighboring Egypt, a Palestinian security official and an Egyptian official said. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media. The reported incursion came a day after Hamas militants killed four Israeli soldiers in a mortar attack that Israel said originated near the Rafah crossing.

The Egyptian official said the operation appeared to be limited. The Associated Press could not independently verify the scope of the operation.

Israeli airstrikes also hit elsewhere in Rafah late Monday, killing at least five people, including a child and a woman, hospital officials said.

The Israeli military declined to comment.

Shortly after Hamas said it had accepted the Egyptian-Qatari truce proposal, Israel’s War Cabinet decided to continue the Rafah operation, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ‘s office said. It also said that while the proposal Hamas agreed to “is far from meeting Israel’s core demands,” it would send negotiators to Egypt to work on a deal. Late Monday, Qatar announced it was sending a team to Egypt as well.

President Joe Biden spoke with Netanyahu and reiterated U.S. concerns about an invasion of Rafah. U.S. State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said American officials were reviewing the Hamas response “and discussing it with our partners in the region.”

It was not immediately known if the proposal Hamas agreed to was substantially different from one that U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken pressed the militant group to accept last week, which Blinken said included significant Israeli concessions.

An American official said the U.S. was examining whether what Hamas agreed to was the version signed off on by Israel and international negotiators or something else.

Egyptian officials said that proposal called for a cease-fire of multiple stages starting with a limited hostage release and partial Israeli troop pullbacks within Gaza. The two sides would also negotiate a “permanent calm” that would lead to a full hostage release and greater Israeli withdrawal out of the territory, they said.

Hamas sought clearer guarantees for its key demand of an end to the war and complete Israeli withdrawal in return for the release of all hostages, but it wasn’t clear if any changes were made.

Israeli leaders have repeatedly rejected that trade-off, vowing to keep up their campaign until Hamas is destroyed after its Oct. 7 attack on Israel that triggered the war.

Netanyahu is under pressure from hard-line partners in his coalition who demand an attack on Rafah and could collapse his government if he signs a deal. But he also faces pressure from the families of hostages to reach a deal for their release. They say that time is running out to bring their loved ones home safely, and a ground operation would further endanger them.

Thousands of Israelis rallied around the country Monday night calling for an immediate agreement. About 1,000 protesters swelled near the defense headquarters in Tel Aviv. In Jerusalem, about 100 protesters marched toward Netanyahu’s residence with a banner reading, “The blood is on your hands.”

Israel says Rafah is the last significant Hamas stronghold in Gaza, and Netanyahu said Monday that the offensive against the city was vital to ensuring the militants can’t rebuild their military capabilities.

But he faces strong American opposition. Miller said Monday the U.S. has not seen a credible plan to protect Palestinian civilians. “We cannot support an operation in Rafah as it is currently envisioned,” he said.

The looming operation has raised global alarm. Aid agencies have warned that an offensive will bring a surge of more civilian deaths in an Israeli campaign that has already killed over 34,000 people and devastated the territory. It could also wreck the humanitarian aid operation based out of Rafah that is keeping Palestinians across the Gaza Strip alive, they say.

Israeli leaflets, text messages and radio broadcasts ordered Palestinians to evacuate eastern neighborhoods of Rafah, warning that an attack was imminent and anyone who stays “puts themselves and their family members in danger.”

The military told people to move to an Israel-declared humanitarian zone called Muwasi, a makeshift camp on the coast. It said Israel has expanded the size of the zone and that it included tents, food, water and field hospitals.

It wasn’t immediately clear, however, if that was already in place.

Around 450,000 displaced Palestinians already are sheltering in Muwasi. The U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, known as UNRWA, said it has been providing them with aid. But conditions are squalid, with few sanitation facilities in the largely rural area, forcing families to dig private latrines.

The evacuation order left Palestinians in Rafah wrestling with having to uproot their families once again for an unknown fate, exhausted after months living in sprawling tent camps or crammed into schools or other shelters in and around the city. Israeli airstrikes on Rafah early Monday killed 22 people, including children and two infants.

Mohammed Jindiyah said that at the beginning of the war, he tried to hold out in his home in northern Gaza under heavy bombardment before fleeing to Rafah.

He is complying with Israel’s evacuation order this time, but was unsure whether to move to Muwasi or elsewhere.

“We are 12 families, and we don’t know where to go. There is no safe area in Gaza,” he said.

Sahar Abu Nahel, who fled to Rafah with 20 family members, including her children and grandchildren, wiped tears from her cheeks, despairing at a new move.

“I have no money or anything. I am seriously tired, as are the children,” she said. “Maybe it’s more honorable for us to die. We are being humiliated.”

The war was sparked by the unprecedented Oct. 7 raid into southern Israel in which Palestinian militants killed around 1,200 people, mostly civilians, and abducted some 250 hostages. After exchanges during a November cease-fire, Hamas is believed to still hold about 100 Israelis as well the bodies of around 30 others.

[hepcat]

Hamas refused the ceasefire proposal from Israel first, then backed the one that a third party put together as it would let them stay in power. Sadly, there’s no chance Hamas will agree to anything that potentially drives them out of power, while Israel will never agree to anything but just that.

Meanwhile, the people caught in the middle suffer because of it.

[GreenGoo]

Then what is reliable news source for him or you? Your facebook friends?

That's a secret.

[Zarathud]

Then what is reliable news source for him or you? Your facebook friends?

That's a secret.

VR is busy being hypocritical on this issue. If it’s not a drive by post from YouTube or social media, it’s not reliable….

/sarcasm

[Dave Allen]

I think any Hamas fighter that want to avoid being killed by Israel are going to move out of the area with the civilians.

I think the IDF thought the same as you. Now Hamas can't slither out their "backdoor" into Egypt. Netanyahu is continuing to do exactly what he said must be done with Hamas.

Also, after reading yesterday's posts, I need to reevaluate only getting my world news from this forum.

[El Guapo]

I think any Hamas fighter that want to avoid being killed by Israel are going to move out of the area with the civilians.

I think the IDF thought the same as you. Now Hamas can't slither out their "backdoor" into Egypt. Netanyahu is continuing to do exactly what he said must be done with Hamas.

I think the idea is more that whatever humanitarian corridor Israel establishes out of Rafah will be used by Hamas, who will pass the bulk of their fighters off as civilians.

[Dave Allen]

I think any Hamas fighter that want to avoid being killed by Israel are going to move out of the area with the civilians.

I think the IDF thought the same as you. Now Hamas can't slither out their "backdoor" into Egypt. Netanyahu is continuing to do exactly what he said must be done with Hamas.

I think the idea is more that whatever humanitarian corridor Israel establishes out of Rafah will be used by Hamas, who will pass the bulk of their fighters off as civilians.

Sure. In a great strategy one move accomplishes multiple objectives.

[Zarathud]

IDF gets to monitor who reacts and that’s valuable intel. It’s easier to hit a moving target than one hiding in tunnels. Closing down the exit to Egypt likely also creates opportunities.

Israel is under more pressure to recover their people than any amount of foreign protests will create. That’s why comparing current protests to the Vietnam protests is just wrong — American students are irrelevant to the war.