Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Grifman
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Grifman »

hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 6:09 pm
Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 5:43 pm
I can tell you that if police are in the process of restraining someone, and you come up on police like that and get in their business, you will get arrested. She got too close to those officers while they were arresting someone who was resisting, and then she moved in even closer. They don't know who she is or what her intentions are. That will get your arrested.
Arrested is one thing. Physically beaten is another. No, there was no excuse for this shit. They're cops there to keep the peace, not friggin' swat responding to a firefight.

That was an uncalled for reaction on the cop's part.

Nowhere did I see her being “beaten”. An officer came up to her, grabbed her, told her she was under arrest, and she resisted, trying to pull away from him. He then forced her to the ground (she was resisting the entire time) and then with the help of another officer, cuffed her. She was never beaten.

Heck, at the end, she even admits her fault, saying “I reacted impulsively, I apologize, please remove the handcuffs.”
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by hepcat »

“He forced her to the ground” is where you should have realized you were on the wrong side of this.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Holman »

Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 5:43 pm
I can tell you that if police are in the process of restraining someone, and you come up on police like that and get in their business, you will get arrested. She got too close to those officers while they were arresting someone who was resisting, and then she moved in even closer. They don't know who she is or what her intentions are. That will get your arrested.
It shouldn't, though. Police don't have a license to overreact any more than you or I do. In fact they're expected to handle confrontations better than others.

And this was definitely an overreaction. If I were in some kind of fight with a random stranger and you came up behind us and told us to dial it down, would I be within my rights to turn on you and slam you face down on the pavement? And would you then be charged with assaulting me?

This happened on a campus where I spent four years getting my BA. The professor being body-slammed down is *clearly* not guilty of battery. I take it personally.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:26 pm “He forced her to the ground” is where you should have realized you were on the wrong side of this.
The issue isn’t whether I am on the right side or not, the issue is your mischaracterization of what happened. She was not beaten, as can be clearly seen.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Holman »

Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:14 pm (she was resisting the entire time)
HOW? Simply by standing upright? She never threw a punch or did anything violent.

If she were "resisting" in that video, it's only because cops can define "resisting" as refusing to go prone three seconds after being told to do so. But that's not even enough time to understand what's happening. (With my knees, I couldn't go prone in less than fifteen seconds with a gun to my head. And I don't even have tenure.)
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by hepcat »

Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:32 pm
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:26 pm “He forced her to the ground” is where you should have realized you were on the wrong side of this.
The issue isn’t whether I am on the right side or not, the issue is your mischaracterization of what happened. She was not beaten, as can be clearly seen.
As I said, “he forced her to the ground” is where I draw that from. And I stand by it. It wasn’t mischaracterized on my part.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Holman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:29 pm
And this was definitely an overreaction. If I were in some kind of fight with a random stranger and you came up behind us and told us to dial it down, would I be within my rights to turn on you and slam you face down on the pavement? And would you then be charged with assaulting
You are not a police officer executing an arrest so your personal example is totally irrelevant. I’ve seen enough police arrest videos and I can tell you that anyone anywhere getting that close to police officers while they are arresting someone else is going to get themself arrested because 1) they are interfering in police business 2) it is unsafe for officers arresting someone for another person to come up on them and get that close while they are occupied with someone else. I’ve seen it happen any number of times and people that do this get arrested.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Grifman »

hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:41 pm
Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:32 pm
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:26 pm “He forced her to the ground” is where you should have realized you were on the wrong side of this.
The issue isn’t whether I am on the right side or not, the issue is your mischaracterization of what happened. She was not beaten, as can be clearly seen.
As I said, “he forced her to the ground” is where I draw that from. And I stand by it. It wasn’t mischaracterized on my part.
You didn’t say this:

“Arrested is one thing. Physically beaten is another.”

I just checked, I’m pretty sure it you that said this.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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You’re not understanding me: being forced to the ground by a cop three times your size is physical assault.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Kinda like accidentally hit by a flag vs assaulted and stabbed in the eye for being a Jewish student?
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Victoria Raverna »

hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:46 pm You’re not understanding me: being forced to the ground by a cop three times your size is physical assault.
Agree with you. She was clearly being attacked by the police. I just noticed something from the video, maybe I misheard it but did the police say he was being attacked in the video after she was forced down?
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:47 pm Kinda like accidentally hit by a flag vs assaulted and stabbed in the eye for being a Jewish student?
You really don’t like the Jews, do you?
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Victoria Raverna »

hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:49 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:47 pm Kinda like accidentally hit by a flag vs assaulted and stabbed in the eye for being a Jewish student?
You really don’t like the Jews, do you?
I don't like when people play victim to provoke people against others.

I have no problem with Jews. I just have problem with ones that like to accuse people of anti-Semitism for opposing Israel's war crimes.
Last edited by Victoria Raverna on Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:51 pm
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:49 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:47 pm Kinda like accidentally hit by a flag vs assaulted and stabbed in the eye for being a Jewish student?
You really don’t like the Jews, do you?
I don't like when people play victim to provoke people against others.
And that’s how you see Jews?
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:53 pm And that’s how you see Jews?
Are you accusing me for being racist against Jews? Opposing Israel = anti Jews?

Falsely accusing people of hate crime in US is dangerous especially accusing them of hate crime because of anti-Semitism. The "stabbed in the eye" student know that and she intentionally did it.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Just seems to be something you’re inordinately focused on to the point where you bring it up even when it’s not the topic.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Victoria Raverna »

hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:58 pm Just seems to be something you’re inordinately focused on to the point where you bring it up even when it’s not the topic.
It was an analogy. Being assaulted and stabbed in the eye vs being accidentally hit are two separate thing. Same as being forced to the ground and being beaten are two separate things.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by hepcat »

You keep bringing up one instance of an (alleged) liar, even when it’s not the topic. It’s like you see it as if it’s proof of something true of a greater whole. Why is that if that’s not the case? Most folks would just chalk it up to a lone bad actor and move on.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Holman »

Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:41 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:29 pm
And this was definitely an overreaction. If I were in some kind of fight with a random stranger and you came up behind us and told us to dial it down, would I be within my rights to turn on you and slam you face down on the pavement? And would you then be charged with assaulting
You are not a police officer executing an arrest so your personal example is totally irrelevant. I’ve seen enough police arrest videos and I can tell you that anyone anywhere getting that close to police officers while they are arresting someone else is going to get themself arrested because 1) they are interfering in police business 2) it is unsafe for officers arresting someone for another person to come up on them and get that close while they are occupied with someone else. I’ve seen it happen any number of times and people that do this get arrested.
So police authority around police violence is self-justifying?

I mean, sure, the police would like to think so. And I guess mere citizens must defer to that.

Regardless of how many police arrests videos you've seen, watch the video in question.
Last edited by Holman on Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Dogstar »

Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:32 pm
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:26 pm “He forced her to the ground” is where you should have realized you were on the wrong side of this.
The issue isn’t whether I am on the right side or not, the issue is your mischaracterization of what happened. She was not beaten, as can be clearly seen.
1. One of the two charges is for battery of a police officer. That's clearly BS, and for the nine thousandth time, it makes you wonder how much other people get charged with incorrectly that doesn't happen to be on video.

2. If we're going to discuss police physical overreactions, I'd like to submit the video of a police office tasing a protestor at Emory who was already in handcuffs and on the ground, which the Supreme Court wasn't a fan of in Thomas v. Nugent.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Holman »

Dogstar wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 8:27 pm
Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:32 pm
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:26 pm “He forced her to the ground” is where you should have realized you were on the wrong side of this.
The issue isn’t whether I am on the right side or not, the issue is your mischaracterization of what happened. She was not beaten, as can be clearly seen.
1. One of the two charges is for battery of a police officer. That's clearly BS, and for the nine thousandth time, it makes you wonder how much other people get charged with incorrectly that doesn't happen to be on video.

2. If we're going to discuss police physical overreactions, I'd like to submit the video of a police office tasing a protestor at Emory who was already in handcuffs and on the ground.
That's hard to watch because that is literally the lawn where I received my college diploma.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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When you run up to officers with their backs turned and their hands full, their backup is going to step in. Why? Because you have X cops surrounded by 20X pissed off people. When you're outnumbered like that, you don't get the luxury of quietly talking things out.
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:46 pm You’re not understanding me: being forced to the ground by a cop three times your size is physical assault.
What would you have them do - call for shorter backup to ensure that it's a fair match? Or can large cops literally never take someone smaller than them down without it being assault?

As to what not resisting looks like, it looks like getting on the grass when you are told to get on the grass. She did something that could, legitimately, represent a possible threat. Another cop steps in, grabs her arm for control and gives her an order. The responds by yelling at him and pulling away. She pulls away the entire time, as he repeats the order over and over. She didn't try to start a slow process of getting down. She didn't try to explain why she couldn't. She just kept pulling.

And when it comes to cuffing someone in the open, you have two real choices: have them willingly turn and put their hands behind their back, or put them on the ground. She wasn't going to do #1. 100 out of 100 cops in that situation are going to put her on the ground. As far as that goes, nothing I saw in their use of force was excessive. It was physical restraint, a simple takedown, and both hands placed behind her back to be secured. That's what you're supposed to do. There was no beating, no tasing, no kneeling on her neck, just one cop on each hand, pushing them behind her back to be cuffed. It was almost textbook.

Was it absolutely necessary in this situation? Maybe not, but the cops on the ground surrounded and outnumbered don't have the luxury of armchair copperbacking from a safe viewport at home. They get two seconds to make that call, and if they make the wrong one, they can end up dead.

It's not as simple as some people seem to want it to be. Use of force never is as simple as what people try to make it out to be from a video they've seen. I've been in their situation. I've had to make that call, more than once. It sucks, and you spend hours, even days, playing it back, trying to decide if you made a mistake. I still wonder what I could have done differently with a certain Mr. Megdall. But at the time, you don't have that kind of luxury.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Blackhawk wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 10:15 pm When you run up to officers with their backs turned and their hands full, their backup is going to step in. Why? Because you have X cops surrounded by 20X pissed off people. When you're outnumbered like that, you don't get the luxury of quietly talking things out.
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:46 pm You’re not understanding me: being forced to the ground by a cop three times your size is physical assault.
What would you have them do
Not wrestle her to the ground for shouting from the sidelines that they were being too rough? At no point in that video did I see her actually touch anyone. They went after her for asking why they were being so rough.

You see something fine, I don’t.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 10:18 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 10:15 pm When you run up to officers with their backs turned and their hands full, their backup is going to step in. Why? Because you have X cops surrounded by 20X pissed off people. When you're outnumbered like that, you don't get the luxury of quietly talking things out.
hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:46 pm You’re not understanding me: being forced to the ground by a cop three times your size is physical assault.
What would you have them do
Not wrestle her to the ground for shouting from the sidelines that they were being too rough? At no point in that video did I see her actually touch anyone. They went after her for asking why they were being so rough.

You see something fine, I don’t.
At 0:15 she stops shouting from the sidelines and runs forward, right up to the cops with their backs turned. They didn't make a move against her until then. Those cops' backup (whose job it is to keep other people back during the arrest) then steps up and intervenes. And they weren't responding to a violent attack, they were responding to threatening behavior. You don't wait for the attack. Had they waited until she touched someone and her intentions were violent, it would have been too late.

And if you watch, when she shouts that they were pushing her head on the concrete (which was where she ended up during the takedown), they lift and turn her back into the grass. They're doing the minimum required of them to restrain her there, and they're making a clear effort to reduce the chance for injury.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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We’re clearly interpreting that video differently.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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I'm interpreting it from the perspective of someone who has been there, and who has had training (admittedly out of date) in how to handle those situations. I'm watching the people who the other cops didn't react to. I'm watching what the trigger was for them to actually step in. I'm watching where he grabbed her, how he locked her joints, and where he put his leg when he took her down (it's about the gentlest way to take someone combative down - he basically tripped her and then lowered her down), how they handled her on the ground.

If the question is whether they should have sent the cops in in the first place, or who should be charged and with what, then I'm likely to be less supportive.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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As I said, we have a different interpretation.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Posting videos from PBS News Hour is okay, right?

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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Holman »

One thing that is clear in 95% of these cases is that cops are treating what is, at worst, trespassing as if it is a riot to be put down by force.

The cops are the rioters here.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Well, Columbia is dropping the boom: Protestors must clear out by 2:00PM ET today or face suspension.

They should have done this first before calling in the police, IMHO.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Holman »

Kurth wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 12:23 pm Well, Columbia is dropping the boom: Protestors must clear out by 2:00PM ET today or face suspension.

They should have done this first before calling in the police, IMHO.
They're not leaving, and faculty have formed a linked-arms cordon around them. Police are waiting offstage for now.

Note that nothing violent is happening that would/will justify police violence. It's all just speech, however unpleasant some of it is.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Unagi »

Yeah, I don't get the justification for a 'crack down'.

I've heard that the worst/bad elements (this a broad "I've heard...") are not the students. For any of the Universities, I would expect them to respect and protect the voices of their students. I'm okay if they want to keep non-students off school grounds.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

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Holman wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:05 am One thing that is clear in 95% of these cases is that cops are treating what is, at worst, trespassing as if it is a riot to be put down by force.

The cops are the rioters here.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Honestly it bums me out that all that energy and exuberance is channeled towards sitting in tents maybe shouting slogans at passersby.

With all the information and communication at their fingertips, literally, this is what we get? "Look at me, cops are mean!"

No one is really talking about Gaza or Palestine, they're talking about student protests and university leadership and US cops and, possibly, anti-Semitism in the US.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by LordMortis »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 4:52 pm No one is really talking about Gaza or Palestine, they're talking about student protests and university leadership and US cops and, possibly, anti-Semitism in the US.
This, but then that seems to be what the OTA press and mega donors want us to talk about.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Grifman »

You're exactly right in everything you say, Blackhawk. People are just ignorant of how police are trained to act in these circumstances, and the trouble people make for themselves when they try to intervene in a police situation and then resist. She wasn't "beaten" as was claimed, she was forced to the ground where handcuffs could be place on her, a person who was actively resisting. arrest I've seen people who never got as close as she got to the police get arrested by the police for interference - she was definitely too close and that last second lunge she made towards the police was a very bad decision on her part.
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:05 am One thing that is clear in 95% of these cases is that cops are treating what is, at worst, trespassing as if it is a riot to be put down by force.

The cops are the rioters here.
If someone is trespassing, and they refuse to leave, then the police will remove them by force and arrest them. That's SOP almost everywhere. If someone shows up on your property and you call the police to have them trespassed, and then they refuse, the police will remove them by force and arrest them. Or would you rather the police just ask them, and if they refuse, just leave them on your property to do what they want? Is that how you prefer it to be handled if it was your property?
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 8:25 pm
Grifman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:41 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:29 pm
And this was definitely an overreaction. If I were in some kind of fight with a random stranger and you came up behind us and told us to dial it down, would I be within my rights to turn on you and slam you face down on the pavement? And would you then be charged with assaulting
You are not a police officer executing an arrest so your personal example is totally irrelevant. I’ve seen enough police arrest videos and I can tell you that anyone anywhere getting that close to police officers while they are arresting someone else is going to get themself arrested because 1) they are interfering in police business 2) it is unsafe for officers arresting someone for another person to come up on them and get that close while they are occupied with someone else. I’ve seen it happen any number of times and people that do this get arrested.
So police authority around police violence is self-justifying?

I mean, sure, the police would like to think so. And I guess mere citizens must defer to that.

Regardless of how many police arrests videos you've seen, watch the video in question.
Duh, I've watched the video in question. She comes up on the scene, then makes a sudden lunge towards the officers fighting with the guy on the ground - which regardless of her intent, is a big no-no. She's actively interfering with the arrest at that point. Of course she's going to get arrested and if she resists, of course she's going to have force used on her to effect the arrest. Heck, maybe you should watch the video, because once she in on the ground, she apologizes to the cop and admits that she reacted inappropriately. She admits she was wrong - can't be much clearer than that. We have her own confession.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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hepcat
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by hepcat »

I’d be confessing to the murder of Archduke Ferdinand if it meant the cop who just threw me to the ground for pointing out they were being too rough would let me live.



….just to be clear, I was nowhere near Sarajevo in 1914.
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waitingtoconnect
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Re: Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

Post by waitingtoconnect »

hepcat wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:56 pm

….just to be clear, I was nowhere near Sarajevo in 1914.
Thats what they all say...

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