Missouri is the first state to severely restrict gender-affirming care for transgender adults amid a nationwide, GOP-led push to legislate away trans rights.
The state’s Attorney General Andrew Bailey announced an emergency regulation on Thursday that aims to limit access to gender-affirming care for Missourians by setting sweeping new rules for those seeking treatment.
“I will always fight to protect children because gender transition interventions are experimental,” Bailey said in a statement. Science actually supports gender-affirming care, and it’s not experimental.
...
The emergency rule makes it impossible for transgender people of all ages to access gender-affirming care unless they have exhibited a medically documented “long-lasting, persistent and intense” pattern of gender dysphoria for three years. They also have to prove they’ve received “a full psychological or psychiatric assessment” and “15 separate, hourly sessions” of therapy, at least 10 of which must be with the same therapist. This follows several anti-trans lobbyists and lawmakers, who’ve attempted to falsely equate transness with “severe mental illness.”
...
Care is also prohibited if healthcare workers don’t check yearly whether a patient is “experiencing social contagion with respect to the patient’s gender identity.” This is likely based on yet another GOP-spread myth that transness is a trend or craze.
LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I'm sure no one saw this coming:
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
We don't have to understand it. It concerns the person, their parents (potentially) and their doctor. They need to be as informed as possible and then make the decisions they feel are best for them.
Why is government interfering in peoples' healthcare??
I'm not a libertarian but holy hell.
Why is government interfering in peoples' healthcare??
I'm not a libertarian but holy hell.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Yeah. This. It's complete bullshit.GreenGoo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:53 am We don't have to understand it. It concerns the person, their parents (potentially) and their doctor. They need to be as informed as possible and then make the decisions they feel are best for them.
Why is government interfering in peoples' healthcare??
I'm not a libertarian but holy hell.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Are y'all really questioning why the government be involved in minors healthcare?
I mean I assume you want the government involved with those gay reeducation camps. You wouldn't argue that should be between a child, parents, and pastor?
And while I'm sympathetic to a doctor's advice, there are plenty of doctors who will sacrifice ethics for money.
I mean I assume you want the government involved with those gay reeducation camps. You wouldn't argue that should be between a child, parents, and pastor?
And while I'm sympathetic to a doctor's advice, there are plenty of doctors who will sacrifice ethics for money.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Two things. A pastor is not a doctor, and the child presumably wants to change. There's a difference between "you're broken and we're going to fix you against your will" and "we will help you, here are some options, let's discuss"noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:24 am Are y'all really questioning why the government be involved in minors healthcare?
I mean I assume you want the government involved with those gay reeducation camps. You wouldn't argue that should be between a child, parents, and pastor?
And while I'm sympathetic to a doctor's advice, there are plenty of doctors who will sacrifice ethics for money.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Sure. There's a difference and I would trust most doctors over most pastors.
But when you're talking about novel treatment, I'm not worried about most, I'm worried about fringe.
But when you're talking about novel treatment, I'm not worried about most, I'm worried about fringe.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Obviously this is more politically charged at the moment, but seems like the same principals should apply to transitional medical care as other types of medical care. Seems like there's a proper public oversight role in ensuring core elements like: (1) consent - do they agree to the procedure; and (2) competency - do they understand what the procedure entails and do they have the capacity to make a decision on it. Seems like both get more complicated when minors are involved, especially if the minor is pushing for a procedure and the parents are opposed.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Without unanimous agreement, no surgery.
That seems like a no-brainer.
That seems like a no-brainer.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Fringe is going to fringe. We should stop letting fringe be a political weapon to oppress most.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:47 am Sure. There's a difference and I would trust most doctors over most pastors.
But when you're talking about novel treatment, I'm not worried about most, I'm worried about fringe.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
That's the government's job. Protect everybody; not just the ones with access to good doctors.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I'm fine with there being laws and enforcement against the fringe. I'm not fine with the actions of the fringe being used to shackle the many.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Gender care such as mental health and social support
are no-brainers.
Medical and pharmaceutical gender transitions are more problematic IMO.
are no-brainers.
Medical and pharmaceutical gender transitions are more problematic IMO.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Who is part of unanimous? Child and doctor? One parent? Both parents? Do you make a distinction based on age of the child? Do you set different rules for reversible treatments, reversible but with more chance of permanent side effects, and non-reversible?
More or less what LawBeefaroni said while I was typing!
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
The article asserts, "swedish authorities found that the risks of physical interventions currently outweigh the possible benefits and should only be offered in exceptional cases. In Britain, a paediatrician (sic) found gender-affirming care had developer without "some of the normal quality controls that are typically applied when new or innovative treatments are introduced"
Finnish authorities consider it experimental and France said do it with "great medical caution" (duh)
I would recommend the article. It goes on further to discuss a lot of details and studies.
I completely agree with it's conclusion, "both within America and without, whatever the loudmouths may claim, the vast majority of practitioners are simply trying to eat the genuine suffering of adolescents afflicted by gender dysphoria. But in America in particular the charged atmosphere has made it very difficult to separate the science from the politics."
Finnish authorities consider it experimental and France said do it with "great medical caution" (duh)
I would recommend the article. It goes on further to discuss a lot of details and studies.
I completely agree with it's conclusion, "both within America and without, whatever the loudmouths may claim, the vast majority of practitioners are simply trying to eat the genuine suffering of adolescents afflicted by gender dysphoria. But in America in particular the charged atmosphere has made it very difficult to separate the science from the politics."
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Unanimity when one party can be swapped out as many times as you want for a yes, isn't a fair vote.Madmarcus wrote:Who is part of unanimous? Child and doctor? One parent? Both parents? Do you make a distinction based on age of the child? Do you set different rules for reversible treatments, reversible but with more chance of permanent side effects, and non-reversible?
More or less what LawBeefaroni said while I was typing!
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Also complicating it is that there's a significant number of Americans that are trying to suppress and erase anything that isn't hetero-normative. Allowing doctors the space to help figure these things out doesn't work when you have voters and politicians actively removing their ability to do so.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:27 am But in America in particular the charged atmosphere has made it very difficult to separate the science from the politics."
EDIT: I know this is what you're saying (generally), but it goes beyond politics and science. It's religious fundamentalists that are driving the pressures, applied through politics and science.
Last edited by Smoove_B on Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I hadn't seen that take before.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:27 am the vast majority of practitioners are simply trying to eat the genuine suffering of adolescents afflicted by gender dysphoria.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Doesn't make me any more comomfortable circumventing evidence based medicine and minimum safety protocols.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:31 amAlso complicating it is that there's a significant number of Americans that are trying to suppress and erase anything that isn't hetero-normative. Allowing doctors the space to help figure these things out doesn't work when you have voters and politicians actively removing their ability to do so.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:27 am But in America in particular the charged atmosphere has made it very difficult to separate the science from the politics."
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"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
This is not a sound position.GreenGoo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:53 am We don't have to understand it. It concerns the person, their parents (potentially) and their doctor. They need to be as informed as possible and then make the decisions they feel are best for them.
Why is government interfering in peoples' healthcare??
I'm not a libertarian but holy hell.
It’s actually a perfect example of left and right crossover. Now you’re arguing that the government should get the hell out of the healthcare business??? What’s next? Down with Obama Care? Fuck your “Death Boards”? All health care should be dictated by the private market? Etc. etc.
The government (the FDA, for one) plays a key role in regulating health care, and it’s a critical role. Of course the government needs to make sure that medical treatments, including pharmaceutical treatments, for gender alignment, need to be safe, effective and with minimal side effects. Can you even imagine the number of hucksters and scammers who might try to make a buck by selling untested, worthless, potentially dangerous treatments to desperate people and their families? Unanimous consent is not even close to sufficient protection.
Also, as the government takes a bigger and bigger role in providing health insurance, it is responsible for making sure the procedures and treatments it is paying for are efficacious.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Nom nom nomIsgrimnur wrote:I hadn't seen that take before.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:27 am the vast majority of practitioners are simply trying to eat the genuine suffering of adolescents afflicted by gender dysphoria.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
This is an incredibly politically frought space now which complicates the efforts to devise the best and most appropriate treatment plans. On the one hand you have very real bigotry and efforts on the right to treat all LGBT sexuality as mental illness (especially as regards trans people and trans care). But you also have people on the left who treat any analysis or discussion on complicated issues here as presumptive bigotry.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:31 amAlso complicating it is that there's a significant number of Americans that are trying to suppress and erase anything that isn't hetero-normative. Allowing doctors the space to help figure these things out doesn't work when you have voters and politicians actively removing their ability to do so.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:27 am But in America in particular the charged atmosphere has made it very difficult to separate the science from the politics."
EDIT: I know this is what you're saying (generally), but it goes beyond politics and science. It's religious fundamentalists that are driving the pressures, applied through politics and science.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
This. It's a minefield to even discuss right now. There are a few genuine questions out there that need real consideration and debate, but honest debate is seen as hate.El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:59 am On the one hand you have very real bigotry and efforts on the right to treat all LGBT sexuality as mental illness (especially as regards trans people and trans care). But you also have people on the left who treat any analysis or discussion on complicated issues here as presumptive bigotry.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
What also is being discounted/suppressed is the statements and sentiments being delivered by individuals that went through gender-affirming care. Situations where they specifically note how it saved their life. Write a book about that? That's banned at a school. Want to have a drag queen (and yes i know not all drag queens are LGBTQ+) read books to children? No we can't have that either. It's a coordinated effort to make sure anyone that feels or believes they are not within a very strict boundary should remain hidden and quiet.
It's absolutely a minefield regardless, but when a significant cohort is doing everything they can to eliminate anything related to the topic, it shouldn't be surprising that a similarly motivated group forms in direct opposition to that sentiment.
It's absolutely a minefield regardless, but when a significant cohort is doing everything they can to eliminate anything related to the topic, it shouldn't be surprising that a similarly motivated group forms in direct opposition to that sentiment.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
That's simply not true. For one, your government is only tertiarily involved in your healthcare to begin with. Except for medicare/medicaid/veterans, your government is embarassingly absent from the caring for the health of its citizens.
For another, of FUCKING COURSE I don't want government making healthcare decisions. See abortions for an easy example of how the left is not interested in politicians' opinions on things.
This is not a new or unique stance, as you seem to imply it is.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Start with protecting moms from their unwanted zygotes. We can move forward from there.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:07 am That's the government's job. Protect everybody; not just the ones with access to good doctors.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
It would be nice if they fucking acted like it.That's the government's job. Protect everybody
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
This was crystal clear based on Smoove's post, which I was responding to.
None of those questions are roadblocks. We've answered them before for lots of things.
And you're god damned right I'm changing doctors if my doctor refuses to care for the health and welfare of my child. Geezus. How is that question?
Last edited by GreenGoo on Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Fair to who? Because I think it's incredibly fair to the one person at the center of all this.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:28 am Unanimity when one party can be swapped out as many times as you want for a yes, isn't a fair vote.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
What frustrates me is that this is a national discussion at all. Why the fuck should strangers have an opinion or worse, a say, in the healthcare of someone else's child. And give me a break about "protecting the child". Protecting them from what? What god made them in the first place?
Every time we cut someone open there are risks. That's not an argument against anything. A consideration? Yes. A roadblock? Wtf?
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Yeah, I agree that it's not surprising. When you listen to a lot of GOP politicians talk about trans issues and how this is all mental illness, I 100% get how any discussion along the lines of "we need to make sure that minors have the competency and capacity to make the decision to get transition procedures that will permanently alter their bodies" as being on that spectrum of bigotry. But that doesn't make the real and sometimes complicated issues involved here go away.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:16 pm What also is being discounted/suppressed is the statements and sentiments being delivered by individuals that went through gender-affirming care. Situations where they specifically note how it saved their life. Write a book about that? That's banned at a school. Want to have a drag queen (and yes i know not all drag queens are LGBTQ+) read books to children? No we can't have that either. It's a coordinated effort to make sure anyone that feels or believes they are not within a very strict boundary should remain hidden and quiet.
It's absolutely a minefield regardless, but when a significant cohort is doing everything they can to eliminate anything related to the topic, it shouldn't be surprising that a similarly motivated group forms in direct opposition to that sentiment.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I think this is what pisses me off the most. The absolute arrogance it takes to decide what's right for someone else's child. Like we have some sort of say and stick our noses in between a patient and their doctor and parents.
If everyone involved decides the rewards outweigh the risks, who are we to decide that they don't?
If everyone involved decides the rewards outweigh the risks, who are we to decide that they don't?
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Absolutely not. But it doesn't warrant a public decision making process from a public that generally can't be assed to vote, let understand what they are voting for. Somehow public opinion is valuable in complicated fields and new medical procedures? It's garbage.
We've witnessed politics influencing science in both our countries. And not as an ethical backstop either.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I don't think that anyone here is arguing for the right to make decisions about the treatment of particular kids. But I think you're acting like everything here is always simple and clear, and I don't think it is. If the parents, kid, and doctor are all in agreement on the appropriate healthcare for a kid, then I think there's general agreement that 99% of the time the government has little role here (other than its general role licensing / approving medicines / treatments).GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:35 pm I think this is what pisses me off the most. The absolute arrogance it takes to decide what's right for someone else's child. Like we have some sort of say and stick our noses in between a patient and their doctor and parents.
If everyone involved decides the rewards outweigh the risks, who are we to decide that they don't?
But as soon as there isn't agreement it gets more complicated. What if a 13 year old wants transition care and their parents refuse their consent? Can the kid sue and get a court order authorizing the care over his parents' objections, or are they SOL until they reach the age of consent? What if one parent consents and the other doesn't? Does a biological divorced parent get any input?
Black Lives Matter.
- El Guapo
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Welcome to democracy (for as long as it lasts). Idiots get to weigh in on stuff far beyond their expertise all the time.GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:38 pmAbsolutely not. But it doesn't warrant a public decision making process from a public that generally can't be assed to vote, let understand what they are voting for. Somehow public opinion is valuable in complicated fields and new medical procedures? It's garbage.
We've witnessed politics influencing science in both our countries. And not as an ethical backstop either.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
No one voted on heart surgery. It's not remotely a democratic issue, and that's not addressing the for profit nature of healthcare in your country.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I'm acting like the fact that the GOP is muddying the waters so that the public thinks their opinion has value is a joke.
At no point am I saying it's an easy decision or that it obviously achieves its goals 100% of the time.
What I am saying is shut the fuck up and get out of the way, random people not involved.
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
I don't think it's about deciding what is right for someone else. It's about avoiding what is potentially harmful. Apply the same evidence based approach that is used to bring a drug to market or approve a chemo therapy. This doesn't require new legislation, just existing laws and the scientific method.
Who is everyone? A doctor and a family? What if the medical consensus is against a particular treatment? If a single doctor and a family want to chelate their child to treat autism, that's OK? "Everyone" agrees. Ignore the FDA if a doctor says its OK?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
MYT
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Re: LGBT issues thread (was Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases)
Nobody should be making decisions for anyone else's child.
Except if you're suppressing discussion of information required to make it an informed decision.
Or if your decision is to do things that hurt that child.
Those things need study, discussion, and debate. Once the data is there, it may or may not require some level of government intervention. But right now, study, discussion, and debate are being hindered by both sides.
Except if you're suppressing discussion of information required to make it an informed decision.
Or if your decision is to do things that hurt that child.
Those things need study, discussion, and debate. Once the data is there, it may or may not require some level of government intervention. But right now, study, discussion, and debate are being hindered by both sides.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.