Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:48 pm
Hmmm. Well, Drazzil, you certainly piqued my interest.
My first gut reaction to your tirade (which is totally forgivable IMO, given the situation), was almost exactly in line with the replies you saw already:
1. What you are suggesting is a GOP style "dirty tricks" playbook. Not technically illegal, but certainly goes against the "spirit" of the laws and the ideals of the country. Morally distasteful.
2. If we even COULD do what you are proposing (probably not even possible), we would practically become that which we are railing so hard against. I mean, the EXACT same shit you propose is the kind of shit that is and has already happened from the right, and has propelled us along this path to authoritarianism.
I guess the difference between my take and most of the replies I have seen is that some were suggesting that we would lose the country for sure if that were to happen, and I personally think we have already crossed that line and HAVE lost.
We "won" in November, technically, but only technically, in the most superficial way. Won the battle, lost the war and all that. November (and January's) results were similar to..maybe a late war battle/skirmish/encounter that Japan or Germany won against the Allies very late during WWII. Sure, they "won", but they were already losing, or so far down the losing path that it didn't matter (though I'm sure it felt good to them at the time, if they didn't look too far down the road at their future).
So I get your overall idea, and don't disagree with asking the REALLY important question, which is:
IF we have already "lost" (and I think the failed Jan 6 commission vote is a HUGE marker for that argument), and the gears and machination, and system is now and already in place to benefit the GOP (or whatever they have become) to get re-elected and stay in power for decades to come, what are we WILLING to do to prevent that?
Anything? No, that's why you are getting all the pushback. I think your response to that is "yes - whatever it takes".
So there are limits to what we can and should do, and feel morally comfortable doing. You can go the Machievelli/McConnell route, or you can go the Ghandi/Biden...Rousseau(?) route. Will Machievelli crush Ghandi when it comes to pure power grabs in a failing/failed Democracy? Yeah, probably. But PERSONALLY speaking, I would rather "lose" knowing I tried to do it the right way, with dignity and scruples, than "win" at all costs as you suggest. In a lot of ways, that's the easy way, and one of the biggest reasons I despise everything the modern GOP stands for: They couldn't do things the traditional, and right way and win, so they cheated. They bent the rules. They lied. They did things that had journalist (and many here) clutching their pearls for YEARS, and simply pointing out that it was "unprecedented" (because no one wanted to believe what was REALLY happening).
But even something as big as the fate of the country itself (which let's face it is already an idea on the verge of being too nebulous or ambiguous to really qualify) is not worth losing your soul. I am not looking for moral superiority, or some smug satisfaction that I didn't get in the dirt with the likes of the Giulianis, Gingriches and Stones of the world, either, it's not that. It's just that what you are suggesting is so distasteful to my personal sense of being/worth/whatever you want to call it, that I would refuse to sign on with it unless I was threatened with imminent death of a loved one or something along that scale.
We tried to do it the right way, but it wasn't enough. That's a stupid fairy tale, IMO...and a dangerous idea to teach kids...that "light" always somehow magically beats "dark"...for...reasons? No, sometimes (hell, OFTEN), the good guys lose, and lose hard.