The Confederate Flag Thread

[Little Raven]

As was mentioned in the other thread, the flag has come down from the SC Capitol Building. Personally, I think this was the right call - that flag has no business flying over any official state building, much less the capitol. It’s unfortunate that it took an event like Charleston to wake politicians up to that fact, but at least some good can come out of that horrific tragedy.

But it’s always a shame to waste a good crisis, and merely taking down one flag would indeed be a waste as far as many are concerned. The recent purge started with various private entities deciding to divest themselves of any association with the flag - the General Lee lost her distinctive top, (both the toy version and the real thing), and various retailers, including Walmart, Amazon, and EBay, decided that they would no longer carry any merchandise which included the flag.

Momentum to eradicate public displays of the Confederate flag continued to build Tuesday as more retailers and online marketplaces, including Amazon and eBay, joined Walmart to remove rebel-flagged items from their shelves and websites.

After Walmart and its 11,000 stores led the way Monday night by sweeping from shelves any product bearing the Confederate battle flag, retail giants Sears, Amazon and eBay followed suit.

"We believe it has become a contemporary symbol of divisiveness and racism," said eBay spokesperson Johnna Hoff.

The wave then moved on to Congress, which ordered the removal of all confederate flags from all federal property, including private flags brought into federal cemeteries.

The House has voted to ban the display of Confederate flags at historic federal cemeteries in the deep South — a low-profile move that prompted an outcry from supporters of the flag.

The vote to ban the display of the flag at the cemeteries came Tuesday evening after a brief debate on a measure funding the National Park Service, which maintains 14 national cemeteries, most of which contain graves of Civil War soldiers.

The proposal by Rep. Jared Huffman, D-Calif., added language to block the Park Service from allowing private groups to decorate the graves of Southern soldiers with Confederate flags in states that commemorate Confederate Memorial Day. The cemeteries affected are the Andersonville and Vicksburg cemeteries in Georgia and Mississippi.

The issue is unlikely to die there, as Speaker John Boehner has called for a commission to
study all displays of the flag and confederate monuments, including the Mississippi state flag, and statues of various confederate leaders that adorn the Capitol. (As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, this appears to be a very bi-partisan issue - while some Republicans privately grumble, virtually none are willing to cast votes against any of these measures, and the Republican leadership appears nearly as committed as the Democrats are.)

Nor is this limited to the national stage. In Memphis, the city council has initiated the first step in a process to have Nathan Bedford Forest's remains relocated, and the statue under which he is interred moved from Health Science Park. (the park itself used to bear his name, but that was changed a few years ago)

On Tuesday evening the Memphis City Council unanimously passed a resolution to remove Nathan Bedford Forrest’s remains from under his statue in the Health Sciences Park on Union Avenue.

...

“It is no longer politically correct to glorify someone who was a slave trader, someone who was a racist on public property,” said City Council member Myron Lowery.

In New Orleans, the mayor has called for four Confederate monuments to be labelled as 'public nuisances', which would legally allow for their removal, even going to far as to use the term 'false valor' when referring to Confederate soldiers.

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu on Thursday joined Southern leaders in officially renouncing Confederate symbols that appear in public spaces around the city and state.

Landrieu formally asked the New Orleans City Council to start the process to remove four statues erected to honor Confederate leaders from their prominent positions throughout the city. The request follows Landrieu’s call for discussions and public hearings on the monuments in the wake of the massacre at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina.

...

Landrieu also requested the Jefferson Davis Parkway be renamed to honor Dr. Norman C. Francis, a prominent Civil Rights leader who served as president of the historically black Xavier University.

In what is probably the most extreme call to action thus far, Professor Nick Bromell has called for the display of the Confederate flag to be recognized as a hate crime, and punished accordingly, although to be fair, I don't really know what that means in a legal context. (He equates it to the Nazi Swastika, but as far as I know, the US government doesn't punish you for flying those, either.)

While I definitely believe the flag should have come down from the SC capitol building, and I can't fault retailers for making decisions about what they will and will not carry, (even if I think Apple is stupid for banning wargames with Confederate flags in them) I am left wondering if we aren't getting a little too zealous in our attempt to clean up history. Nor do I think that Confederate soldiers are any less deserving of honors than their Union counterparts. Certainly, the cause they fought for was flawed, but then, most causes are. It is difficult to defend Vietnam or Iraq as anything but horrible mistakes at best, or murderous frauds at worst, but that does nothing to diminish the valor or bravery of the soldiers we sent to fight and die in foreign lands.

I suspect this wave has a ways to go before it dies, though.

[YellowKing]

I also think removing the flag from the state building was the right move, but the other historical whitewashing is a lot of knee-jerk reaction from businesses deathly afraid of public backlash. It will pass, and while I don't think you'll ever have Amazon running Confederate flag sales on their front page, the fervor will die down.

Also, automatically ignore any "professor" who comes out with a controversial statement every time there is an issue. That trope is getting so tired, and I wish the media would stop giving them a platform to spew their bullshit.

The internet is a great agent for social change, but unfortunately it is also incredibly good at blowing things WAY THE HELL OUT OF PROPORTION just like my mother in law.

[EvilHomer3k]

I think this is R&P. It started with removing the flag from the state building. I'm moving it there.

[Carpet_pissr]

Also, automatically ignore any "professor" who comes out with a controversial statement every time there is an issue. That trope is getting so tired, and I wish the media would stop giving them a platform to spew their bullshit.

Professor Horatius A. Feelmenuts disagrees. THE Professor Feelmenuts no less, not some adjunct bullshit from your local yokel community college. That dude is legit.

[Kraken]

Removing it from public buildings is a no-brainer. I'm glad there's a broad bipartisan consensus on that. Extending that to cemeteries made me go "hmm."

As far as private displays go, I'm of two minds. In the North it's a blatant symbol of racism and hatred. I appreciate it when those people self-identify so that I can avoid them.

It's more complicated in the South. I don't like to see history sanitized, nor do I like seeing people told that their interpretation of a symbol is invalid. My dad was a Good Ole Boy. When I was a kid I had various garments with confederate flags on them. It signified that one was a "rebel," in the positive sense of going against the grain. Plus it's aesthetically a good design, let's face that. So was the Nazi flag. So is the Klingon empire's seal.

I will be glad when another bandwagon comes along and steals this one's momentum. If the lasting effect is a purge from public property, that's a net gain.

[RunningMn9]

How much of this is sanitizing history as opposed to finally not celebrating the more shameful periods? I'm a big fan of acknowledging history - but I do find it curious just how much reverence has been given to what amounted to a group of traitors. Why are most/all military bases in the South named after treasonous Confederate generals? Why is there a Confederate Memorial Day? Why can't you honor those soldiers on normal Memorial Day?

In other words, there is a difference between acknowledging history and celebrating it. I think that celebrating the Confederacy has gone on long enough. I am all for acknowledging that it happened. But I feel about most of these things the way I would feel about a monument in Hawaii to the bravery and courage of the Japanese Imperial Navy.

That said, I don't live in any of these places, so I guess I don't actually care.

[Carpet_pissr]

That said, I don't live in any of these places, so I guess I don't actually care.

Pffft! As if Ulgoth's Beard has no ambiguous symbols lining its streets?!

[dbt1949]

I've always liked the Confederate flag and though of it as cool. I of course thought of it as a culture thing and not race thing.
I can certainly understand and support the decision to remove it from government buildings. I used to always wonder why they were there all the time anyways. Odd that it comes back with the resurgence of the klan and not having been there all along.
Until recently reading about that I would never have guessed.

[Kraken]

Banning Confederate flags from Confederate graves feels wrong to me. Is it inappropriate to memorialize those soldiers with the banner they fought under? I don't think that's "celebrating" anything. Acknowledging what they fought for isn't endorsing it. The ground would heave with bodies rolling over if US flags were placed on those graves.

[pr0ner]

While I definitely believe the flag should have come down from the SC capitol building, and I can't fault retailers for making decisions about what they will and will not carry, (even if I think Apple is stupid for banning wargames with Confederate flags in them) I am left wondering if we aren't getting a little too zealous in our attempt to clean up history. Nor do I think that Confederate soldiers are any less deserving of honors than their Union counterparts. Certainly, the cause they fought for was flawed, but then, most causes are. It is difficult to defend Vietnam or Iraq as anything but horrible mistakes at best, or murderous frauds at worst, but that does nothing to diminish the valor or bravery of the soldiers we sent to fight and die in foreign lands.

I suspect this wave has a ways to go before it dies, though.

People in the DC area are already trying to strip Jefferson Davis's name from US Route 1 in Virginia. There's definitely a prevailing attitude for some people that anything and everything related to the Confederacy must go immediately.

[Drazzil]

I hate this. Its going too far. But then again I love history, which is what the confederate flag represents for me.

[em2nought]

I'm a big fan of acknowledging history - but I do find it curious just how much reverence has been given to what amounted to a group of traitors. Why are most/all military bases in the South named after treasonous Confederate generals?

We started out as a group that would have been called traitors if we'd lost, but somehow we won. Maybe that gets the CSA a bye from us. ...and I think the army just likes to name stuff after "good" generals, the north had so few. Would be confusing with every fort named Grant or Sherman.

[YellowKing]

How much of this is sanitizing history as opposed to finally not celebrating the more shameful periods? I'm a big fan of acknowledging history - but I do find it curious just how much reverence has been given to what amounted to a group of traitors. Why are most/all military bases in the South named after treasonous Confederate generals? Why is there a Confederate Memorial Day? Why can't you honor those soldiers on normal Memorial Day?

I live in NC, and I've never even heard of Confederate Memorial Day. You'll find that Confederate stuff is actually celebrated by a very small number of people. If you're from outside the region they make it sound like everyone down here is a flag waving Civil War die-hard, but it's simply not true.

Also, most/all military bases in the South are not named after Confederate generals. There are a few, but it's nowhere close to a majority. There are some that sound like they're named after Civil War generals, but are not. For instance, Camp Shelby was named for Revolutionary War hero Isaac Shelby, not Confederate general Joseph Shelby. And many of those bases were established in the early 1900s, long before any controversy over Civil War memorials.

Also, if you're going to talk about treason, then like em2nought said, we may as well throw the colonists in there who broke away from British rule.

[Holman]

There are several strands to this topic, most of which were pretty well developed in the earlier thread.

IMHO:

The Confederate battle flag is history, and it shouldn't be whitewashed out of existence. That would actually be the opposite of what's needed, which is perspective and memory. But there's no danger of this happening: you'll always be able to buy all the rebel flags you want (maybe just not at as many retail stores). Likewise, the civil war won't disappear from American awareness or American memory for another two hundred years. Some monuments will come down or be repositioned or have plaques added to their plaques, but a repositioning is not a purge. None of the meaning is going away.

But the presence of the CSA flag isn't something continuous or "natural" in American society now outrageously under fire by revisionist PC police. For a long time, the flag wasn't very visible. It had little public prominence in 1870 or 1900 or 1930. It wasn't a defiant symbol of identity enduring through the generations, except when the Klan waved it. For a long time the flag really was (mostly) a piece of history.

But that's not what it is today. The CSA flag reappeared in the 1950's and 60's as a direct challenge to integration and the Civil Rights movement. It was redeployed by state governments and other "citizen groups" not out of some thoughtful reflection of heritage and history but as an urgent, present declaration of white supremacy. No one seeing the flag flying from a truck or waving in a crowd in Mississippi in 1960 saw it as a sign of historical interest. Its message was way more direct and unmistakeable than that, and that's the message that was sent by the flags raised by state governments in the Civil Rights era. It had been the flag of Lee's army in 1865, but by 1965 it was the flag of "segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

That's the legacy that's being disassembled right now. For a brief time (probably too brief), Americans are thinking about it and acknowledging it. There will be some collateral damage in the form of monuments unnecessarily retired, sure. That's unfortunate. (Although it's equally true that some of those monuments and school renamings and etc were themselves part of the Civil Rights backlash. A suspicious number of memorials to Forrest and Jackson and Davis went up in the 50's and 60's.)

What could happen, though, is that some of these strands of history will be disentangled from each other. I love the history of the Civil War era, and it has always pissed me off that my racist contemporaries kept insisting that it was somehow about today rather than vice-versa. I appreciate the complex contexts of the 1860's and the events of that era. But when I see them lowering the flag from the the SC state house, I don't even see a historical flag; I see the Klan's flag, and Wallace's flag, and the flag of racists who put it there as an insult to every American, Southerners included.

[RunningMn9]

Also, if you're going to talk about treason, then like em2nought said, we may as well throw the colonists in there who broke away from British rule.

How many statues of Washington are there in London? How about memorials to Tory loyalists are there in Boston. Are their graves honored with the flag of Great Britain?

Although I don't really have any problem with the Battle Flag on confederate graves.

[sgoldj]

Also, if you're going to talk about treason, then like em2nought said, we may as well throw the colonists in there who broke away from British rule.

Stating the obvious, the rebels of the American Revolution were traitors to the British Crown as much as the CSA were traitors to the U.S. The significant difference being who won and who lost. If the CSA exisited today, Davis, Lee, etc. would be considered founding fathers and patriots to that country.

I agree that as a symbol of a state, Confederate flags should be taken down. It makes no more sense than to fly a confederate flag over a state of the former CSA than a Spanish or French flag.

I draw the line at changing the state seal. The theme of the shield in Alabama is historic. France, Spain, England are represented. In THAT CONTEXT, to me, it makes no sense to remove the flag from there. The CSA did exist, Alabama was part of it, and the flag flew over here. Let's not do what I perceive Germany doing, trying to erase the Nazi era by burying it, not leaving it out to be examined and remembered.

[Max Peck]

Also, if you're going to talk about treason, then like em2nought said, we may as well throw the colonists in there who broke away from British rule.

How many statues of Washington are there in London?

At least one -- in front of the National Gallery in Trafalgar Square.

[Arcanis]

So just to toss it out there. I live so far in the south If I went another 20-30 miles I'd be swimming and I've never even heard of a confederate memorial day either. Every time I've seen the confederate flag in person it has been in the context much as Kraken or DBT described, it is a southern pride or rebel cutting against the grain.

[RunningMn9]

I should have googled that first.

[Carpet_pissr]

It's a state holiday in most Southern states, including NC and LA. I also did not know it was a thing here until recently.

I think it gets as much press/acknowledgement as National Doughnut Day (actually less now that I think about it. Free Krispy Kreme doughnuts!!)

[RunningMn9]

I should have googled that first.

I am referring to the statue of Washington in London with this comment.

[Holman]

A few states celebrate Robert E. Lee's birthday and pair it with MLK day.

[hepcat]

[pr0ner]

You didn't know that? It was Lee Jackson King day in Virginia for quite a while, no less.

[Kasey Chang]

Texas, never quite the bastion of the south, went PC a LONG time ago.

When I first entered High School, which was more than 25 years ago, my high school sports team goes by "Rebels", and our mascot was a cartoon Confed gray soldier on a cartoon galloping horse flying a confed flag.



By the time I graduated, the mascot is gone, and what used to be a confed flag in the center of our basketball court was painted over with white.

In the intervening years, our school team got renamed to "Raiders". (EDIT: 1986)

And our mascot is now apparently a generic cowboy on a white horse doing the Lone Ranger "Hi-O Silver!" pose.

[dbt1949]

A few states celebrate Robert E. Lee's birthday and pair it with MLK day.

We do here. As a matter of fact at least the first few years I moved here it was listed as ROBERT E LEE & Martin Luther King's birthday.

[hepcat]

You didn't know that? It was Lee Jackson King day in Virginia for quite a while, no less.

I did not. Wow.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, the only reason I knew that was because my in-laws were teachers in the Northern-neck area of Virginia for a few years. Every January they would have "Robert E. Lee Day" on the MLK federal holiday and were expected to have some type of classroom activity related to Lee ready to go. I do not believe they were specifically instructed to spend any time teaching about MLK.

[em2nought]

I never realized it was flying in so many gov't places now. I think it's gradually increased since the zealot religious conservative side has prospered while the logical fiscal conservative side has been swept aside.

Never cared for rednecks or their redneck version, I'd rather see that go away. The real flags are fine in museums, and on confederate graves, or at the head of a southern army besieging DC.

So was the Jackson from Lee/Jackson/King day for Stonewall? Yes. I can't imagine marching 35 miles in one day in Civil War shoes.

[Isgrimnur]

Texas, never quite the bastion of the south, went PC a LONG time ago.

Not everywhere.

The president of the Fort Worth Southern Christian Leadership Conference will ask the Commissioner of Education, Michael Williams, to support his request to the Superintendent and the Board of Trustees of the Birdville Independent School District to consider changing the mascot names of Richland High School from the Rebels, Dixie Belles and Johnny Rebel.

[Kasey Chang]

There are always holdouts somewhere.

[Pyperkub]

A lot of this is an over-reaction, however - the overreaction is somewhat justified/rationalized through the hate the flag has inspired and used as a symbol for, in terms of how vociferously (and occasionally violently) it has been both defended as a symbol and used as a symbol.

There is also the element of transferance with regards to the Charleston shootings and gun control/the gun lobby - a lot of the outrage on those fronts has been funneled into this front based on how bunkered in those factions are.

At least those are a couple of thoughts on the topic.

On the good news side - the State of South Carolina can now host NCAA events again:

The NCAA will end a nearly 15-year ban on South Carolina hosting sanctioned championship events following the decision to remove the Confederate flag from the state's capitol grounds.

[Isgrimnur]

That's probably the fastest that the NCAA has moved on anything.

[Kraken]

Also, if you're going to talk about treason, then like em2nought said, we may as well throw the colonists in there who broke away from British rule.

If I had lived then, I'd probably have been a Tory.

3 reasons the American Revolution was a bad idea

[Rip]

Phase II begins.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offend ... rchandise/

A shopper perusing the merchandise at the Redwood Country Flea Market was so offended by a vendor selling Confederate and Nazi historical memorabilia, the person actually called 911.

Wallingford, Connecticut police were dispatched to the flea market to investigate.

The town resident who called 911 said there were helmets with swastikas, images of Hitler and other historical Nazi items.

“I was shaking and almost vomiting,” he tells the paper. “I had to run. My grandmother had numbers,” referring to the digits the Nazis would tattoo on prisoners.

The caller complained that the Confederate items were “not authentic” and were replicas of flags and weapons.

He says the seller told him “he was selling so much he can’t keep it in stock.”

According to the paper, the complainant also called Mayor William W. Dickinson Jr., who promptly called Chief Wright.

“I had to check with the chief over what is actionable and what isn’t,” according to the mayor. “Unless something violates state or federal law, there’s no jurisdiction for government to do anything. We had to ask, is it something controlled by law?”

And the assistant regional director of the Anti-Defamation League in Connecticut sees a difference between authentic memorabilia and “cheap replicas” “used as symbols of hate.”

“It’s unfortunate that under the law people have the right to sell these things; but it doesn’t mean they should sell these things,” Joshua Sayles says.

“It’s not a crime but I would call it hate. People look at the situation in Charleston and say it’s down in the South. But this stuff is here in Connecticut.”

Just amazed about how worked up people get over a bunch of flags and crap. Jews have been living with Swastikas and such for decades, I think this is the latest boogieman for people to focus on instead of the things that are really a threat.

[Ænima]

Phase II begins.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/offend ... rchandise/

A shopper perusing the merchandise at the Redwood Country Flea Market was so offended by a vendor selling Confederate and Nazi historical memorabilia, the person actually called 911.

Wallingford, Connecticut police were dispatched to the flea market to investigate.

The town resident who called 911 said there were helmets with swastikas, images of Hitler and other historical Nazi items.

“I was shaking and almost vomiting,” he tells the paper. “I had to run. My grandmother had numbers,” referring to the digits the Nazis would tattoo on prisoners.

The caller complained that the Confederate items were “not authentic” and were replicas of flags and weapons.

He says the seller told him “he was selling so much he can’t keep it in stock.”

According to the paper, the complainant also called Mayor William W. Dickinson Jr., who promptly called Chief Wright.

“I had to check with the chief over what is actionable and what isn’t,” according to the mayor. “Unless something violates state or federal law, there’s no jurisdiction for government to do anything. We had to ask, is it something controlled by law?”

And the assistant regional director of the Anti-Defamation League in Connecticut sees a difference between authentic memorabilia and “cheap replicas” “used as symbols of hate.”

“It’s unfortunate that under the law people have the right to sell these things; but it doesn’t mean they should sell these things,” Joshua Sayles says.

“It’s not a crime but I would call it hate. People look at the situation in Charleston and say it’s down in the South. But this stuff is here in Connecticut.”

Just amazed about how worked up people get over a bunch of flags and crap. Jews have been living with Swastikas and such for decades, I think this is the latest boogieman for people to focus on instead of the things that are really a threat.

As a Jew, I have never seen someone flying a swastika flag, let alone a state sanctioned one. If I did, I'm pretty sure I'd freak the hell out.

[Rip]

So you have never went to a flea market or gun show and seen any?

This isn't someone flying the stuff, it is stuff being sold at a flea market.

[Ænima]

So you have never went to a flea market or gun show and seen any?

This isn't someone flying the stuff, it is stuff being sold at a flea market.

I was responding to your point about people being "worked up about flags and crap". Seeing an occasional asshole sporting a tattoo or a patch on a jacket is a lot different than flying the symbol above the state house. Are people going to overreact the other way for a bit? Sure, that's human nature. But most people aren't exactly jumping up here to defend the guy at the flea market. Those people will go away soon enough.

[Smoove_B]

So you have never went to a flea market or gun show and seen any?

I've never been to a gun show, so I can't really comment. I have attended flea markets (though not in quite a few years) and I don't remember seeing Nazi flags flying or Nazi memorabilia for sale. I can absolutely understand that if I had a family member that survived the holocaust, seeing a tent filled with helmets, uniforms, flags, etc... might cause a reaction.

This isn't someone flying the stuff, it is stuff being sold at a flea market.

Which I'm pretty sure is still happening -- thereby negating the "Phase 2" elements you're implying (i.e. private citizens are no longer able to acquire and display Nazi flags or Confederate artifacts or flags). Was the call to 911 appropriate? I have no idea. People call 911 when they get the wrong order in a drive through.

I would love to learn more about The American Mirror website. I think it's a conservative headline porn depository.

[hepcat]

Rip himself is phase 2 of the overreaction plan. I suspect we're in for a lengthy campaign on his part of linked news articles like this.