(Ironrod's idea): what issue drives your vote?

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What issue is most critical to your vote?

The war in Iraq
7
9%
Abortion
1
1%
The economy/jobs/taxes
17
21%
Homeland security
5
6%
Civil liberties
15
19%
We have to "keep Bush in"/"get Bush out" or else!
19
24%
Health care/Stem cell research
7
9%
"The other guy is an idiot"
9
11%
 
Total votes: 80

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geezer
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Eightball wrote:Banning research on them WILL stop people from being able to use them, however. That's an absolute guarentee. But you absolutely have to give people the chance.
Who banned research on them?

And you will *NOT* sigh at me again. :)
Nobody banned it (yet), and that's a critical point. HOWEVER, again, it's simply a fact that basic research is more the realm of universities and foundations than it is the realm of drug companies, (because basic research is simply not directly lucrative). Unfortunately basic research is what is needed for embryonic stem cell studies now, and that research is highly dependent on public funding. So by banning public funding you DO ban a huge and important source of support for basic research, without which the potential of embryonic stem cells cannot or will not be reached in any reasonable timeframe, if at all.

I'm not debating that adult progenitor cells have tremendous potential as well (and even that they have more immediate practical uses). I'm simply stating that these adult cells are NOT a substitute for embryonic cells and that it's not just a matter fo harvesting more types of adult cells to take the place of one type of embryonic cell.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:I'm not debating that adult progenitor cells have tremendous potential as well (and even that they have more immediate practical uses). I'm simply stating that these adult cells are NOT a substitute for embryonic cells and that it's not just a matter fo harvesting more types of adult cells to take the place of one type of embryonic cell.
Well, the article I read certainly seemed to have enough links to research to suggest that this may no longer be the case.

Since they have been able to find a lot more adult stem cells, and they've found that they are capable of greater differentiation than previously thought.

I will however concede Eightball's point on cell aging effects.

Of course - I'm for funding embryonic stem cell research, so you probably knew that already.

One important point. Bush didn't even put the schnide on all public funding. He put the botch on federal funding (for now). I believe one poster has already said that CA is committing $3B for ESCR. Are they the only ones?
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
geezer wrote:I'm not debating that adult progenitor cells have tremendous potential as well (and even that they have more immediate practical uses). I'm simply stating that these adult cells are NOT a substitute for embryonic cells and that it's not just a matter fo harvesting more types of adult cells to take the place of one type of embryonic cell.
Well, the article I read certainly seemed to have enough links to research to suggest that this may no longer be the case.

Since they have been able to find a lot more adult stem cells, and they've found that they are capable of greater differentiation than previously thought.

I will however concede Eightball's point on cell aging effects.

Of course - I'm for funding embryonic stem cell research, so you probably knew that already.

One important point. Bush didn't even put the schnide on all public funding. He put the botch on federal funding (for now). I believe one poster has already said that CA is committing $3B for ESCR. Are they the only ones?
No idea on state funding, but by eliminating NIH grants, you have killed a huge source of basic research funding, no two ways about it.

Regarding the article you are referring to, the only one I am familiar with that is similar was published in Nature awhile back. If you could provide a link, I'd love to pas it along for comment :) A quick scan of the Nature article that I think you MIGHT be referring to is, quite specific in saying that these results are functionally meaningless as they have not been duplicated.

Further, because negative results are not often published, and scientists certainly have TRIED to duplicate plasticity in adult cells, it really does cast enough doubt at this time to make the argument that embryonic stem cell funding should be curtailed in lieu of adult funding a dubious proposition at best.
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Post by Spock's Brain »

Frankly, I'm most worried about which of these partisan tools gets to select the next two or three US Supreme Court Justices. Presidents have a relatively short life span, but Justices are the gift that keeps on giving.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:Further, because negative results are not often published, and scientists certainly have TRIED to duplicate plasticity in adult cells, it really does cast enough doubt at this time to make the argument that embryonic stem cell funding should be curtailed in lieu of adult funding a dubious proposition at best.
Well, I am being somewhat half-assed in presenting the other side of the argument - because, well, it's the OTHER side of the argument, and not mine.

But, the thing I wanted to convey to Ironrod, is that my research did lead me to conclude that there are grounds for this decision that aren't completely retarded (despite me still not agreeing with them).

And I don't think there's any way to slice it - CA spending $3B (which was several times more than Kerry is proposing to spend on it IIRC) on this research means that I'm not concerned about Bush's stance at all. The money is being spent on the research, and it's Californians that are footing the bill. I'm alright with that. :)
And in banks across the world
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
geezer wrote:Further, because negative results are not often published, and scientists certainly have TRIED to duplicate plasticity in adult cells, it really does cast enough doubt at this time to make the argument that embryonic stem cell funding should be curtailed in lieu of adult funding a dubious proposition at best.
Well, I am being somewhat half-assed in presenting the other side of the argument - because, well, it's the OTHER side of the argument, and not mine.

But, the thing I wanted to convey to Ironrod, is that my research did lead me to conclude that there are grounds for this decision that aren't completely retarded (despite me still not agreeing with them).
OK, and what *I* want to convey to Ironrod is that *every* scientist I have talked to that studies and works in this field (and by no means are all, or most, dependent on embryonic stem cell funding by the way) disagrees with the idea that adult progenitor cells have the same ultimate capabilities as embryonic stem cells.

I'm glad it's not *your* position - I'm not trying to attack you, but rather just pointing out that when laypersons (like you or I) try to understand science based on popular press (if you read the actual scientific paper, and not a summary report, I apologize for the assumption) they come to wrong conclusions and, ultimately, through the democratic process lead science (via funding) in direction it ought not to go because the recommendations are based on faulty underpinnings.

It's unfortunate because someone like you, who is clearly educated and rational, comes to a worng or incomplete conclusion and convinces others of that same proposition and then, unwittingly, decisions get made based on that wrong information. This goes back to my entire issue with the panel that made the stem cell recommendations to Bush -- it was lead by an ethicist, not a scientist, and STARTED from the proposition that life is "sacred.' I have a problem with that when the ultimate issue to be decided is where research fits into a legally secular country.

So many things about this bug me -- I apologize if I'm unloading, but Ironrod now considers that possibly adult progenitor cells might serve as well as embryonic stem cells. Ironrod may factor that into a vote in this election or some other. The problem is, scientifically speaking, that is at best unconfirmable despite repeated attempts to try, and at worst flat dead wrong.

/rant

Sorry folks.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:Ironrod may factor that into a vote in this election or some other.
I wouldn't worry about it - his vote doesn't count anyway. :)
And in banks across the world
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And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
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The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
geezer wrote:Ironrod may factor that into a vote in this election or some other.
I wouldn't worry about it - his vote doesn't count anyway. :)
damn you for making me laugh.

hehe :D
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Post by Poleaxe »

geezer wrote: This goes back to my entire issue with the panel that made the stem cell recommendations to Bush -- it was lead by an ethicist, not a scientist, and STARTED from the proposition that life is "sacred.' I have a problem with that when the ultimate issue to be decided is where research fits into a legally secular country.
But isn't life "sacred" from a secular philosophical view as well as a religious view? Don't we, and haven't we since the dawn of recorded history, treated life as something to be protected. Wouldn't you agree that legal protections placed on life in all cultures spring from secular practicality as much as religious mumbo-jumbo?

Pure science is capable of great excess without ethics. Why should ethics not lead scientific research rather than the other way around? Is it because you find the scientific search for truth to be "sacred?"
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Post by geezer »

Poleaxe wrote: But isn't life "sacred" from a secular philosophical view as well as a religious view? Don't we, and haven't we since the dawn of recorded history, treated life as something to be protected. Wouldn't you agree that legal protections placed on life in all cultures spring from secular practicality as much as religious mumbo-jumbo?
Sometimes, but we have also made, and continue to make daily, value judgments as to the value of that same life. Speaking legally, we have all sorts of artificial limitations on when life is held to be "sacred" and when it is not. Truly, if the concept that life was "sacred" was the overriding value of our society, there would be no legal war, there would be no legal execution and there would be no leeway when it comes to classes of murder/killing. That said, I'm ok with the idea that society values life (generally) with regard to a greater/lesser good - i.e. the idea that sometimes one must sacrifice a small number of lives to save a greater number. In that light, it seems that sacrificing a relatively small number of embryos to eventually save a large number of viable children/adults is a no-brainer.
Poleaxe wrote:Pure science is capable of great excess without ethics. Why should ethics not lead scientific research rather than the other way around? Is it because you find the scientific search for truth to be "sacred?"
No -- honestly I'm not sure I believe ANYTHING is truly "sacred" in the sense that it should be valued above all else. More to the point though, I don't understand how someone without a full and personal understanding of the science at hand can give an opinion on the ethical or societal ramifications of said science. Well, let me rephrase. They can give an opinion, of course, but there is a problem when that opinion is formed based on a faulty understanding of the science.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:More to the point though, I don't understand how someone without a full and personal understanding of the science at hand can give an opinion on the ethical or societal ramifications of said science.
How would someone without a full and personal understanding of ethics give an opinion on the ethical or societal ramifications of any particular science?

The answer of course, is that neither can operate on their own. You need ethicists *and* scientists.
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
geezer wrote:More to the point though, I don't understand how someone without a full and personal understanding of the science at hand can give an opinion on the ethical or societal ramifications of said science.
How would someone without a full and personal understanding of ethics give an opinion on the ethical or societal ramifications of any particular science?

The answer of course, is that neither can operate on their own. You need ethicists *and* scientists.
Agreed, and sensible, though I would argue that morality and ethics are much more easily understood by scientists than is hard science understood by someone without the requisite factual background in the subject.
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Post by Kraken »

OK, here comes an omnibus catchup post. I was offline all morning because I didn't realize the URL for this place had changed. My bookmarks were broken.
RunningMn9 wrote: I believe one poster has already said that CA is committing $3B for ESCR. Are they the only ones?
I apologize for speaking too soon about that. Californians will decide this question on Tuesday.
OAKLAND, CALIF. – Next Tuesday, California voters could overthrow three years of cautiously crafted national policy on perhaps the most controversial area of modern science. By approving Proposition 71, they would authorize the state to spend $3 billion on stem-cell research, trumping the Bush administration's go-slow approach and potentially setting the nation on a new course.

Although the research is in its infancy, understanding how stem cells work could revolutionize medical science - promising treatments for diseases it has been unable to cure, say many scientists. With its $3 billion bond, California would instantly become a leader in the field, attracting businesses and biologists from across the world.

But the concerns are broad, touching on issues as varied as fiscal responsibility and Christian morality, women's health and medical ethics. Audacious even by California's standards, the decision could have a transforming impact on science and society, both bringing the nation closer to long-sought cures and to the edge of cloning's slippery slope.
RunningMn9 wrote:CA spending $3B (which was several times more than Kerry is proposing to spend on it IIRC) on this research means that I'm not concerned about Bush's stance at all. The money is being spent on the research, and it's Californians that are footing the bill. I'm alright with that. :)
You'd better read my link.
geezer wrote: OK, and what *I* want to convey to Ironrod is that *every* scientist I have talked to that studies and works in this field (and by no means are all, or most, dependent on embryonic stem cell funding by the way) disagrees with the idea that adult progenitor cells have the same ultimate capabilities as embryonic stem cells.
Are you guys fighting over li'l ol' ME? How very flattering. For the record, I was not convinced by RM9's statement, although I have reopened my mind to the possibility. So far in this thread I see RM9 referring to an article that isn't linked, and geezer talking about unnamed scientist friends. All well and good, but not too persuasive on either side.

This remains an important issue to me. I have a strong bias toward free inquiry. Bush's policy runs counter to that, and I believe that scientists, not politicians, should be the ones deciding how finite research dollars are best spent.

Carry on, it's an interesting conversation (if something of a thread hijack; maybe it needs its own home, given that it polled almost no interest).
Poleaxe wrote: But isn't life "sacred" from a secular philosophical view as well as a religious view? Don't we, and haven't we since the dawn of recorded history, treated life as something to be protected. Wouldn't you agree that legal protections placed on life in all cultures spring from secular practicality as much as religious mumbo-jumbo?
Given our long propensity for war and enslavement, I have to go with a big No here. Human life seems very cheap and expendable.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:Agreed, and sensible, though I would argue that morality and ethics are much more easily understood by scientists than is hard science understood by someone without the requisite factual background in the subject.
I don't know that I agree with that. The requisite factual background on the subject isn't necessary to discuss the ethics. For instance, the ethical considerations surrounding this primary stem (pun intended) from the fact that this research, in effect could potentially create a "market" for human embryos.

Well, that's an example of an ethical question. Knowing the "science" behind embryonic stem cell research isn't required - beyond knowing that they are using human embryos. Even if the scientists argue that they are using discarded embryos - the ethical question remains.

My point? Administration's *should* have a Palmer Joss. He just probably shouldn't be allowed to rule the roost as it were.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

Ironrod wrote:This remains an important issue to me. I have a strong bias toward free inquiry. Bush's policy runs counter to that, and I believe that scientists, not politicians, should be the ones deciding how finite research dollars are best spent.
But who gets to decide which scientists get to decide how to spend the money? Since we don't have enough for all of them.

Like it or not - those are choices for your elected representatives. And if you don't like your representation - you know what to do. :)

Earlier in the week, I was just crusading against the sudden rise of binary logic in these here forums. Carry on. :)
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Post by geezer »

Ironrod wrote:Are you guys fighting over li'l ol' ME? How very flattering. For the record, I was not convinced by RM9's statement, although I have reopened my mind to the possibility. So far in this thread I see RM9 referring to an article that isn't linked, and geezer talking about unnamed scientist friends. All well and good, but not too persuasive on either side.
FWIW, they are unnamed out of respect for their privacy and mine as they are personal acquaintences (and in one case a family member) of mine. But if it helps, many are associated with the Christopehr Reeve Paralysis Foundation and work in the lab of the immediate past president of the Society for Neuroscience, two leaders in the field.

Edit - Incidentally my wife attended the conference last week (actually, she was a featured speaker at a symposium -- I'm so proud :) ) where the paper you referred to (about the embryonic cells making rats walk again) was presented. She is trying to get some info on the exact results, which I'll relate here when she does (along with her interpretation of them).
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
geezer wrote:Agreed, and sensible, though I would argue that morality and ethics are much more easily understood by scientists than is hard science understood by someone without the requisite factual background in the subject.
I don't know that I agree with that. The requisite factual background on the subject isn't necessary to discuss the ethics. For instance, the ethical considerations surrounding this primary stem (pun intended) from the fact that this research, in effect could potentially create a "market" for human embryos.
OK, but without knowing the true, posible value of said embryos in relation to existing prospects with adult cells, how can you make an informed decision on whether or not that risk of an "embryo market" is worth running?

Unless your view is absolute (i.e. it is NEVER ok/worth it to destroy embryos for scientific reasons) you kinda need to know what you are weighing, don;t you think? :)
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Post by Poleaxe »

Ironrod wrote: Given our long propensity for war and enslavement, I have to go with a big No here. Human life seems very cheap and expendable.
In practice yes, but the overarching philosophy is one of protection of life.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

geezer wrote:OK, but without knowing the true, posible value of said embryos in relation to existing prospects with adult cells, how can you make an informed decision on whether or not that risk of an "embryo market" is worth running?
You need three things to make your decision.

You need scientists telling you why you want human embryos. You need scientists telling you why human embryos aren't necessarily necessary. And you need ethicists exploring the ethics of creating markets for human embryos.

Which is what I've been saying here for how long? You need ALL of these things to make an informed decision.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Post by Eightball »

RunningMn9 wrote:Who banned research on them?

And you will *NOT* sigh at me again. :)
Sigh. :wink:

Here's the issue. Mind you, prop 71 hasn't passed yet, but if it does, here's the deal: CA has said it will give 3 billion to stem cell research over 10 years. That's 300 mill per year, which sounds like an amazing amount, right?

Not really. Federal funding is so much more than that. In 2001, (most recent figures I could find, but it's the yearly average up to then), the NIH gave Johns Hopkins alone 334 million for research in grants. 300 million is a lot to fund one subject as Prop 71 is geared to fund, I'll give you that, but it's not an amazing amount, especially in a young research field where research will be extremely costly (no established procedures to go by, as an example, and man labor hours will be quite long). Reason why I brought up the prion example is simply that; sometimes it takes 20 years to work it out; sometimes much, much longer. And universities would probably spend 10-15% (or more) of their budget on stem cell research if they could; it is such a hot topic, it's the future of medicine.

I used the term "banned" almost euphemistically. The government has restricted stem cell research to only those created before August 9, 2001. However, if you're familiar with basic cell biology, you can replicate and replace cells only so long before they start to have issues with genetic instability and viability. According to an article in the May 2003 issue of Science magazine, those 70 lines that were the lines available for research have dwindled. To 11 viable lines.

11 lines. From my experience working in basic science research (primarily with with heart cells, myocytes), you expect a cell line to be viable for 2-3 years until it's basically "run out". Those are stock, replicating lines. Cell lines that are fragile or nonreproductive (ie heart and nerve cells) need to be freshly harvested. For just our experiment, we harvested 100 neonatal rat hearts a week. It's amazing to me that those 11 embryonic lines have lasted as long as they have.

If the feds don't fund it, you're hoping that CA passes Prop 71 and CA can fund it. Else those 11 still viable lines will die out...and then no one will progress. Without federal funding, there's no funding. And that's basically banning the research. Federal funding is the lifeblood of university research (and obviously, without federal funding, the NIH won't be researching it either). Theoretical research like that on embryonic stem cells won't be conducted by private firms, either (takes too long to show a profit, whereas when the government funds a theoretical research project, privates can adapt the science that the government funding has proven).
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Post by geezer »

RunningMn9 wrote:
geezer wrote:OK, but without knowing the true, posible value of said embryos in relation to existing prospects with adult cells, how can you make an informed decision on whether or not that risk of an "embryo market" is worth running?
You need three things to make your decision.

You need scientists telling you why you want human embryos. You need scientists telling you why human embryos aren't necessarily necessary. And you need ethicists exploring the ethics of creating markets for human embryos.

Which is what I've been saying here for how long? You need ALL of these things to make an informed decision.
Sure :) No argument there.
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Post by Kraken »

RunningMn9 wrote: But who gets to decide which scientists get to decide how to spend the money? Since we don't have enough for all of them.
Easy. The director of the research institution considers the funding requests of his or her scientists, and submits them to the proper government agency.
RunningMn9 wrote: Like it or not - those are choices for your elected representatives.
No, it is their job to enact a global science budget based on a bottom-up process. Do elected officials really consider line-item financing requests, or is this done by expert bureaucrats in the various agencies? I'd think politicans are ill-suited to decide how Harvard and MIT should spend their money.
Eightball wrote:CA has said it will give 3 billion to stem cell research over 10 years. That's 300 mill per year, which sounds like an amazing amount, right?
Actually, it's over 30 years, which reinforces your point. It will cost them $6 billion to repay. Money well-spent, IMO. Healthcare/medicine is one area of our economy that's growing like gangbusters, and this would steal much of the focus away from Boston.
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Post by Eightball »

I'd highly recommend not letting politicians/lawyers tell researchers where to spend their research funds. Just like you don't want your research scientists telling lawyers how to make the law.

From my classmates in law school, what little they know of basic science is pretty astonishing. Most don't know what a CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) is for instance. Cabbage? What's Cabbage?

They don't know the difference between DNA and RNA; they probably couldn't even tell you what the acronyms stand for.

You don't want someone with that absolutely limited knowledge of science telling you what to research. They ask what I researched, and I say "g-protein signalling transduction cascades involving the ras/raf gene complex that results in left ventricular cardiac hypertrophy." To someone with a basic biological science background, that's pretty simple.

To a lawyer, that's greek.
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