OOWW: JLA ... GAME OVER!

[purge]

Sigh. Purge, let me explain this as clearly as possible. I have claimed nothing. The post mimicing Grund's comment was simply to draw attention to the manner in which he escaped attention. I have already said as much several times yet you continue to suggest I made some form of claim.

I was just looking at the list and thought I'd take a shot at getting a claim from you.

[bb2112]

Anarchy

[Unagi]

Seems kinda stupid to start killing off the good guys right now, doesn't it?

First, who are you talking to. Me?
Second, are you saying that I am saying we should kill a good guy?

At MOST I am saying we should put Lagom up to N-1 and/or request him to make a claim.

Did I say that we should then go on with the Lynch and kill him no matter what? Hell - the implication is actually that we would NOT do that (unless perhaps we had a more credible COUNTER claim, right?)

So, where are we saying we should kill good guys today.

And, please don't pretend that the Evil team (if Lagom is good) hasn't scanned Lagom to determine if he should be a top or bottom priority, so him telling US what he is - how does that hurt us compared to him dying quietly in the night with everything he may know. How does him brain dumping hurt us MORE than him dying tonight at their hands?

And - seriously - a Protector in this game may actually be a problem for us - as we will not be digging the whole "Conversion!?" panic that it sets forth.

And - then , to your points about being thwarted later by a Two-Face, etc.... Isgrimnur could clearly be Two-Face and he could die Normal and we wouldn't know it. Who the hell cares - it's not like we even have a 'grand total' of Villains versus Good Guys that we know if we are about to win or lose, etc. Right? I guess I am just basically saying "Yes, this game is mega borky and we will all hold everyone as suspect until the bitter end".

done.

[Unagi]

Regarding the discussion of roles claimants, that is, me and Grund, I agree on principle. But I won't give you my exact role today.

I am one of:
Wonder Woman
The Flash
The Elongated Man
Atom

I'll let you figure out why it's better that the villains try to work out who I am, rather than me handing it to them on a silver platter.

However,

 Grundbegriff 
 

Does anyone think it's interesting that Lagom finds himself in the same boat as Grund, but makes this move?

I guess I just find it odd that Lagom doesn't feel that Grund may also be best served by not revealing his true role, and giving Grund the 'room' that he is asking we all give him. Instead it's like he's just saying "better Grund than me".

[RMC]

I know we are worried about outing certain hero's, and I guess that makes sense. But if they are powered good guys, and they are claiming some type of role..If the bad guys kill them at night, we get nothing out of it. We don't even know what their role was.

I know it seems to make sense to say, "give me some room, my role requires it." Okay I can see that, but the bad guys then have more information than we do. They know that LL and Grund have some type of power. Hell If LL is atom, and they tried to kill him on Night one, they know who he is (or suspect it strongly) now, and he will not out himself, for a good reason.

But I am also understanding that some of our roles are better off in the dark for as long as possible.

So maybe we need to table LL and Grund for this cycle, and focus on others. <shrug>

I am not validating that they are powered hero's, and I think we need to know their roles, but we can wait one more day/night to really press them.

Now, who do I think we should go after? Well... I am not sure. I have some ideas, but have to go to a bunch of meetings so I will try to type out some thoughts tonight after work.

[Mr Bubbles]

[western] Lagom has got lot of nerve showing himself in these parts of the woods. He better mosey himself on down out of here before he gets a necktie.[/western]

[Remus West]

I do not actually agree fully that leLagom has been scanned by now. For one thing, they may not have a direct "Player X is what role" type scanner. For another thing, Grund made the same type of play. It would then fall between the two of them as to which would be the scan target. All of which assumes they are both good. If either is Evil then obviously the other would be the scan. If both are Evil then anyone may have been scanned.

[Remus West]

RMC, if Lagom is Atom and has been scanned then his identity has been "confirmed" and he is essentially powerless.

[Unagi]

I do not actually agree fully that leLagom has been scanned by now. For one thing, they may not have a direct "Player X is what role" type scanner. For another thing, Grund made the same type of play. It would then fall between the two of them as to which would be the scan target. All of which assumes they are both good. If either is Evil then obviously the other would be the scan. If both are Evil then anyone may have been scanned.

Are you making a point ?

[purge]

I'm saying, take Harley off the table. That paranoia can wait - Unagi, you're the one with Supe-is-already-evil theory, and then bringing up that night one was most likely conversion. No, no it isn't most likely - it is, at best, a 50/50 shot given all the ifs (.15 vs .15 (truncated to 2 decimal places) from a bunch of math based on mean number of villains and protectors I did before scrapping it in my last post).

We have villains to kill, so lets not look over our own shoulder and question our few claimed roles. Assuming 4 villains start, we have a 2 in 6 shot of not having the joker. Let the scanners figure out if they're telling the truth.

As to Lagom - I don't feel like discussing his role as obfuscation is pretty much part of his value, so analyzing it publicly means that we identify vulnerability. They should want to kill the ones who can defeat them - Lagom is, at best, an inconvenience. There are plenty more people on-board that may or may not be a bigger threat to them, and while taking out a protector is a smart move, they may be motivated to find Batman, WW, convert Superman, etc.

IF HE'S A BADGUY, that is one out of a possible 3-5. Once again, at least he's staked a claim. We can analyze it, or let the villains solve this mystery with a night kill (which is proof enough on DAY FRICKIN' TWO).

I will not vote Lagom, and I'm not sure I'm going to vote Grund.

Tru1cy and Superman are also off the table for me.

Now let's talk about the remaining group, and us getting more "proven" and taking a shot.

My order of preference is:

[list=][*]1. We vote to call out the pair of Hawks to take a shot, and kill a suspected villain. Reason being: they are at greatest risk to losing their power with lynch or night kills, given that if one hawk dies, no shot can be made.
[*]2. If no hawks come out, we then call the green arrow to take a shot on a claimed human (e.g. Grim or another volunteer). They will be protected during the night.
[*]3. We each put up a list of who we think should be tested from the pool of unclaimed. NOTE: This is dependent on 1 vs 2 - GA vs HM/HW shifts what we're looking for.
[*]4. Assuming success in 1(or 2) and 3, step 4 is discussion and defense. We can also take volunteers.
[*]5. We call for Green Lantern to disable the targets power.
[/list]

Since we don't want anyone outed, and we don't know if these roles exist, we simply put it out there and HM/HW, GA and GL can choose to participate or not.

Implementation should be as follows:

• A. POST THE QUESTION/ACTION REQUEST.
• B. EVERYONE REPLY WITH a quote of the question posed, and the word "ACKNOWLEDGED". If it is step one or two, the GA / HM / HW can pipe up with their role, should they choose to do so. GL should NOT reveal.
• C. We move to the next step, and repeat A, B, and C.*
  If the shooter(s), or GL decide not to participate, then that is their decision and they can keep that to themselves.

The only part of this that includes discussion is to WHO we choose to test, and that isn't something we can do until we know who's willing to use their powers. Step 2 should be skipped if HM/HW have decided to participate.

I think this is the best way to ensure we go fishing without revealing those who want to remain hidden, and gives us a chance to get ahead of the villains. They've potentially failed once, and with the most people alive today (save Qantaga ), we need to get ahead of the game.

Thoughts, concerns?

[Remus West]

You are mistaken when you say "we don't want anyone outed". I very much want Grund's claim. I'm torn on a more specific claim from Lagom. I do not like the idea that they could kill him then emmulate his role while telling us Lagom must have been one of the others. As pointed out, if he has been scanned then they know his role already and know if they need to target him or leave him as a suspicion magnet. Thus further obfuscation is pointless and detrimental to our cause in finding the Evil players.

[purge]

Now let's talk about the remaining group, and us getting more "proven" and taking a shot.

My order of preference is:

1. We vote to call out the pair of Hawks to take a shot, and kill a suspected villain. Reason being: they are at greatest risk to losing their power with lynch or night kills, given that if one hawk dies, no shot can be made.
2. If no hawks come out, we then call the green arrow to take a shot on a claimed human (e.g. Grim or another volunteer). They will be protected during the night.
3. We each put up a list of who we think should be tested from the pool of unclaimed. NOTE: This is dependent on 1 vs 2 - GA vs HM/HW shifts what we're looking for.
4. Assuming success in 1(or 2) and 3, step 4 is discussion and defense. We can also take volunteers.
5. We call for Green Lantern to disable the targets power.

Implementation should be as follows:

1. POST THE QUESTION/ACTION REQUEST.
2. EVERYONE REPLY WITH a quote of the question posed, and the word "ACKNOWLEDGED". If it is step one or two, the GA / HM / HW can pipe up with their role, should they choose to do so. GL should NOT reveal.
3. We move to the next step, and repeat A, B, and C.*
   If the shooter(s), or GL decide not to participate, then that is their decision and they can keep that to themselves.

Since we don't want anyone outed, and we don't know if these roles exist, we simply put it out there and HM/HW, GA and GL can choose to participate or not. The only part of this that includes discussion is to WHO we choose to test, and that isn't something we can do until we know who's willing to use their powers. Step 2 should be skipped if HM/HW have decided to participate.

I think this is the best way to ensure we go fishing without revealing those who want to remain hidden, and gives us a chance to get ahead of the villains. They've potentially failed once, and with the most people alive today (save Qantaga ), we need to get ahead of the game.

Thoughts, concerns?

Quoted to fix BB code. Variant from GT which I'm used to. :le_sigh:

[purge]

You are mistaken when you say "we don't want anyone outed". I very much want Grund's claim. I'm torn on a more specific claim from Lagom. I do not like the idea that they could kill him then emmulate his role while telling us Lagom must have been one of the others. As pointed out, if he has been scanned then they know his role already and know if they need to target him or leave him as a suspicion magnet. Thus further obfuscation is pointless and detrimental to our cause in finding the Evil players.

His planting a claim yesterday or today means nothing tomorrow, if we get another no-kill scenario. He's had plenty of time to wiggle in his claim, and ultimately it can be scanned and proven / not proven. Let's deal with taking a shot first, and then the lynch target. Grund has claimed a special role - so he's either good or bad, and not normal (like that's a surprise )

You're like a dog with a bone - while I admire your not letting go of it, it's also an easy play if grund was an scan by the villains last night (good candidate for it too) and trying to get the lynch kill on him and save them the trouble of having to waste a night kill.

He could be good, he could be bad. Him revealing his role right now doesn't help us any. There are only two-to-three roles that I'm petitioning that we use, while we still have as many heroes as possible.

[Remus West]

Which is another thing. You are pushing that we use the Hawk and/or the Arrow. In doing so we wipe out the majority of our ways to handle the possibility of triggercut being converted. If he hasn't been and they have one available wouldn't you think they would go after him? Even if it does not outright win the game for them, getting rid of an Evil Superman requires the use of some of our limited resources. Why are you so eager to spend those resources now? Why do you want to know so badly if those resources exist?

[El Guapo]

purge, not to harp on the "evil superman" theory, BUT if we use up all our shooters, and there's a joker (who survives the shooting phase), and the Joker hasn't used his conversion yet (and/or did hit superman with it already), then wouldn't your plan cause us to immediately lose?

Also, I'd think if we were activating our shooter(s) that we would want Shazam (if he's around) to prove himself to avoid having us shoot him. Heck, it might be a good idea to have him prove himself anyways just to reduce the unknown pool.

[Isgrimnur]

I'm getting this sense that if we use our shot and the villains convert Superman, we're kinda up a creek. Somebody tell me if I'm off base here.

[coopasonic]

I'm getting this sense that if we use our shot and the villains convert Superman, we're kinda up a creek. Somebody tell me if I'm off base here.

I don't think anyone has really considered that possibility.

[El Guapo]

I'm getting this sense that if we use our shot and the villains convert Superman, we're kinda up a creek. Somebody tell me if I'm off base here.

You probably get that from the fact that Chaosraven has said so. Well technically, we would have to have none of the following available:

(1) The Shooters (Hawks, Green Arrow)
(2) Green Lantern
(3) Technically Martian Manhunter (since he could connect with Evil Supes, and if he's killed by the villains that night Supes would die too). Though I'm not really counting this since it'd be difficult to execute.

I think that's everyone. If all of them are dead or not in the game + Supes conversion = heroes loss.

[El Guapo]

hmmmm...I'm thinking that I lack super sarcasm detection.

[coopasonic]

hmmmm...I'm thinking that I lack super sarcasm detection.

Failure to detect sarcasm is an evil trait. It is known.

[Remus West]

Guapo, 3 would not be difficult to achieve, it would be impossible. A converted Supes would be able to say "Hey guys, don't attack MM because he is in contact with me right now."

[El Guapo]

Guapo, 3 would not be difficult to achieve, it would be impossible. A converted Supes would be able to say "Hey guys, don't attack MM because he is in contact with me right now."

Yeah, you're right (assuming that Supes gets his PM before the villains choose their target). Not that I was counting on that anyways, I guess.

Come to think of it, doesn't MM give the villains a two-for-one kill once MM inadvertently contacts a villain? They get a PM, which presumably identifies MM to the villains. Then they just wait until none of them get a PM from MM (so MM is not in contact with a villain). Then just kill MM, and blammo.

[purge]

And Hawkwoman gets killed tonight, what did that get us?

Their shot is more likely to be nullified, which is why I recommend green arrow SECOND.

I'm not pushing that we mass out, or that we waste a shot.

You want to shoot superman now? Then VOTE FOR IT.

Keep in mind that you're giving that power to Parasite, and if he's the last one standing and THEN uses that power (in a 2/1 situation), he gets a night kill to win.

Ooo, look, failure.

It just takes longer to get there.

[Chaosraven]

VOTE


2 Isgrimnur - El Guapo, coopasonic
2 Lagom Lite - Remus West, Unagi
2 theohall - bb2112, Austin

1 bb2112 - theohall
1 Unagi - Mr Bubbles
1 Mr Bubbles - triggercut
1 purge - Isgrimnur
1 Grundbegriff - Lagom Lite

No Vote: Grundbegriff, Lassr, tru1cy, RMC, purge



16 Players remain, Majority is 9

[Chaosraven]

[CR - I understand the order to mean that the present nights kill cannot be selected for the parasite to use on the next phase. Please chime in if my assumption is wrong]

Correct, as Parasite chooses a Dead Player. The Night Target is not killed until after Orders are submitted.

CR, can you clarify the additional powers Batman would gain with Two-face in the mix?

In the TwoFace description:
Two-Face - Harvey Dent will scan as Normal, both for Lynching and for Powers unless Batman is alive and in the Game. In the event he is Lynched, Batman will get a PM that he was Two-Face. In the event a Power identifies him, Batman will get the Truth. If Harvey Dent is shot by the Green Arrow, he will survive and be identified as Normal (Batman will receive his true identity)

Hawkman / woman - same question as the Wonder twins: can one exist without the other, or were the power selections based on the pair?

In Determining Roles, a Hero Role that is Randomly Determined to be Hawkman or Wonder Twin will generate an EXTRA Hero (drawn from the Potential Normals), increasing the ((Number of Heroes)).

Since he is killed, does he get to report one of his attackers or clues to how he was killed?

Dr Fate will be allowed a Mindburst if KILLED AT NIGHT. He may use any five words (and no, HEYGUYSLORDMORTISISDARKSEID is not "one" word.), if he was scanning, his result will come along with his own DEATH message, before he is able/required to Mindburst.

[Chaosraven]

CR, I sent you a PM re: using the FAQ message to host any answers you end up having to respond to. I like that you have the FAQ section there - I think it's a great idea and it would help us instead of sifting through 27 pages of Remus hating on BB for the sky being blue, and then Unagi telling us to kill superman cuz he might be evil, and my conspiracy-gene buying into it.

Thanks!

As the game has progressed, I have added occasional updates to the rules or the FAQ area with answers.
I will comb through for my answers, and provide LINKS to those posts in the FAQ. But it will take me a bit to set that up.

[theohall]

Since someone is bored

withdraw bb2112

 coopasonic 
 

[RMC]

RMC, if Lagom is Atom and has been scanned then his identity has been "confirmed" and he is essentially powerless.

That makes sense, but he would not know that he had been scanned, hence why he would not want to self reveal. I mean he has to essentially be a target for a scan now, if there is a chance he is Atom.

But if he were to self out himself, does that count as being confirmed, so he would loose his power? Correct?

Better to make team evil use a scan to determine that..

<shrug> Still thinking on who I want to vote for now..

[purge]

Thanks for the reply - sorry I wasn't sure about the Batman extra powers - if there was some other power besides two-faces' description.

My last question was if Fate would be able to identify his killer, not whether he'd get an opportunity to mindburst his latest scan.

[purge]

RMC, if Lagom is Atom and has been scanned then his identity has been "confirmed" and he is essentially powerless.

That makes sense, but he would not know that he had been scanned, hence why he would not want to self reveal. I mean he has to essentially be a target for a scan now, if there is a chance he is Atom.

But if he were to self out himself, does that count as being confirmed, so he would loose his power? Correct?

Better to make team evil use a scan to determine that..

<shrug> Still thinking on who I want to vote for now..

Read the FAQ, CR has already answered that one.

(thanks for updating with the links, CR! Awesome job considering the monumental task - much appreciated).

[Chaosraven]

Thanks for the reply - sorry I wasn't sure about the Batman extra powers - if there was some other power besides two-faces' description.

My last question was if Fate would be able to identify his killer, not whether he'd get an opportunity to mindburst his latest scan.

In the event he dies due to scanning Croc, he would receives that info.

[Lassr]

 theohall 
 


I'll go back to my last vote. We can keep talking and rehashing the same stuff or we can move the game along and get some intel by lynching.

[coopasonic]

 theohall 
 


I'll go back to my last vote. We can keep talking and rehashing the same stuff or we can move the game along and get some intel by lynching.

What intel? Didn't we just decide the lynch trains teach us nothing because everyone is too experienced? I guess we get the intel of whether the dead was good or bad. At least it will move the game along.

[Chaosraven]

VOTE

3 theohall - bb2112, Austin, Lassr

2 Isgrimnur - El Guapo, coopasonic
2 Lagom Lite - Remus West, Unagi


1 Unagi - Mr Bubbles
1 Mr Bubbles - triggercut
1 purge - Isgrimnur
1 Grundbegriff - Lagom Lite
1 coopasonic - theohall

No Vote: Grundbegriff, tru1cy, RMC, purge



16 Players remain, Majority is 9

[Lassr]

 theohall 
 


I'll go back to my last vote. We can keep talking and rehashing the same stuff or we can move the game along and get some intel by lynching.

What intel? Didn't we just decide the lynch trains teach us nothing because everyone is too experienced? I guess we get the intel of whether the dead was good or bad. At least it will move the game along.

exactly

[Unagi]

 theohall 
 

What intel? Didn't we just decide the lynch trains teach us nothing because everyone is too experienced? I guess we get the intel of whether the dead was good or bad.

the votes that are on lynch trains are just one place where people interface with the game - and it's a very basic system, one that is easy to talk about, discuss (endlessly), and exploit - as we have all learned.

However, when people actually play the other part of the game (slinging mud around and debating with other players), there are more complex things that people can try and learn from that, after the results of a lynch are made known.

That's why people that aren't debating and/or having any verbal exchanges with other players look like they are hiding from exposure.

[purge]

Clearly there is no support for the Hawks to come forward and/or Green Arrow.

[Chaosraven]

VOTE

4 theohall - bb2112, Austin, Lassr, Unagi

2 Isgrimnur - El Guapo, coopasonic


1 Lagom Lite - Remus West
1 Unagi - Mr Bubbles
1 Mr Bubbles - triggercut
1 purge - Isgrimnur
1 Grundbegriff - Lagom Lite
1 coopasonic - theohall

No Vote: Grundbegriff, tru1cy, RMC, purge



16 Players remain, Majority is 9

[RMC]

 theohall 
 


Theo is one that has pinged my radar from a few of his thoughts. So I can get behind this vote.

[triggercut]

Now we've got some useful data. Reading. Collating. Computing....