[?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANGER!!

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[?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANGER!!

Post by Kasey Chang »

GGW is selling Borderlands 2 key for 50% off ($29.99) and B2 w/ Season Pass for $49.99 (regularly $99 on Steam)

The problem is I've never heard of them before so I don't know how legitimate they are.

http://www.gameguideworld.net/platform/steam.html" target="_blank

EDIT: As others shown below, you need to do VPN to some foreign country to activate the game, probably not worth the risk.
Last edited by Kasey Chang on Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by Kasey Chang »

Supposedly they just lowered their price further to $20.99 with the game guide (that's the regular B2, without the DLC Season Pass)

EDIT: With Season pass is a mere $39.99 (base and Pass)
Last edited by Kasey Chang on Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by morlac »

Wow that is cheap. Never heard of them either but can't find anything bad about them doing a quick search.
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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by ColdSteel »

Amazon has the game for $29.99 right now. Tempting.
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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by Alefroth »

I bought it from GGW. Order is still processing. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ack. Got a scanned code jpeg and a message saying I might have to use a VPN to activate it. I'll try when I get home, and if it doesn't work, I'll see if PayPal can stop the charge.

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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by Blackhawk »

VPN?

No thanks - that's a red alert for me on Steam games.
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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by Alefroth »

Blackhawk wrote:VPN?

No thanks - that's a red alert for me on Steam games.
Yeah, same here.

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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by Kasey Chang »

Yikes, that means the Steam codes are from a different country.
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Re: [?] Borderlands 2 Steam Key for sale at GameGuideWorld

Post by morlac »

Kasey Chang wrote:Yikes, that means the Steam codes are from a different country.
Yep, a little more digging indicates they use Russian codes quite a bit which is probably a red flag so to speak.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Blackhawk »

You essentially have to hack your system to trick Steam into letting you activate a game you're not supposed to.

I have an incredible number of games on Steam, enough that I'm not willing to risk my account to save $10.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

I tried the key and of course it didn't work. I opened a dispute through Paypal claiming there was no indication that it wasn't a US version and would require 3rd party software and misrepresenting my geographical location to Steam in order to activate. The seller declined the refund request stating the terms and conditions did not allow refunds on digital purchases. I escalated it to a claim, and Paypal is investigating it.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Kasey Chang »

Sorry to hear that, but thanks for taking an arrow to the knee for the team. ;)
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

Paypal wouldn't rule in my favor because the product is intangible. I was able to get my CC to do a chargeback. Looks like I'll have to wait until the holiday sale now.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

I received an intent to sue letter via email today from the proprietor of GameGuideWorld. He is saying he will summon me to small claims court in Maryland if I don't settle for the price of the item plus $50. He would sue for the maximum allowable in MD, which is $600 plus expenses.

I've got a free 30 minute consultation with a lawyer in Maryland.

Anyone think there is anything I can do?

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Smoove_B »

This story has taken a turn I didn't expect. I cannot offer legal advice, but good grief...
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Did Steam or Gearbox have anything to say about this? Seems to me GGW is playing fast and loose with licensing. Smells like an empty threat but definitely get a qualified legal opinion.

Might also want to throw out some feelers to Popehat, this reeks of a scam/bullying.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Smoove_B »

I was going to say there has to be some type of online gaming media outlet that would gobble this up - like RPS or Bill Harris. But going after a bully? Absolutely Popehat. :D
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Kasey Chang »

And what exact is he going to sue you for? Breach of contract?

You are refusing to pay for an item that is "not as described, with hidden caveats". Print out Steam's policy on key "hacking" and potential penalties, and their website's description, which clearly did not mention such shenanigans.

So what is he going to "settle" for? You pay him cost of item PLUS $50? I'd say you countersue him for cost of item plus + cost of taking a day off to show up in court. But that's IMHO.

If he's offer a refund plus $50 then maybe you can take it. Something to think about. :)

Do they even ALLOW lawyers in small claims in Maryland?

You may also want to register an account over on RealScam and/or Quatloos. Both are consumer fraud places, and I know Quatloos is read by real lawyers.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

He is claiming it is fraudulent chargeback because I did receive the item.

I think what it comes down to is that in the description of the game, it does mention VPN activation is required. However, it was not stated on the product listing. I went straight to the cart by clicking "Add to cart" and didn't see any of that information I do have screenshots of the steps going from product listing to cart, but don't know if they'd have any weight.. He does state that using the VPN is safe and legal, which really doesn't seem to be true.

Maybe it's just a case of not reading the fine print, but I think it's reasonable to not expect to receive a foreign version of the game, or to have to go through those hoops to use it. Especially since I'd just made a purchase from Green Man Gaming, and that was perfectly smooth.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by GreenGoo »

First, small claims court has a max limit because after that it can no longer be "tried" in small claims court. Don't be frightened off by that number. Second, typical small claims court rulings cover the original costs. It's a way to have a legal option to make people play "fair". There is zero chance you are going to be forced to pay $600. I don't think the word punitive even exists in small claims. At worst, they might ask you to repay the original price plus some pittance, which is exactly what he's asking for.

Outside of the stress and time investment, why wouldn't you want this settled in court? I understand being risk adverse but this seems incredibly low risk. Using a VPN gate is for intentionally circumventing the restrictions on the licensing agreements for these keys. Using a VPN is not illegal. Using a VPN to break a licensing agreement without the licensor knowing has got to be a civil issue. Small claims should back you.

Bottom line, he is trying to bully you. You could completely ignore him, or go on the offensive, or simply take a passive role and wait for him to make another move.

I'd almost certainly fight it, because the risk is small, the product was scammish, and he's being a dick.

I probably wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place, but I would not be afraid of small claims court threats.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by LawBeefaroni »

GreenGoo wrote:First, small claims court has a max limit because after that it can no longer be "tried" in small claims court. Don't be frightened off by that number. Second, typical small claims court rulings cover the original costs. It's a way to have a legal option to make people play "fair". There is zero chance you are going to be forced to pay $600. I don't think the word punitive even exists in small claims. At worst, they might ask you to repay the original price plus some pittance, which is exactly what he's asking for.

Outside of the stress and time investment, why wouldn't you want this settled in court? I understand being risk adverse but this seems incredibly low risk. Using a VPN gate is for intentionally circumventing the restrictions on the licensing agreements for these keys. Using a VPN is not illegal. Using a VPN to break a licensing agreement without the licensor knowing has got to be a civil issue. Small claims should back you.

Bottom line, he is trying to bully you. You could completely ignore him, or go on the offensive, or simply take a passive role and wait for him to make another move.

I'd almost certainly fight it, because the risk is small, the product was scammish, and he's being a dick.

I probably wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place, but I would not be afraid of small claims court threats.
How much (in both time and money) does it cost to fly from Washington to Maryland to appear in small claims court?

That's why the guy is making the threat, he knows many people would just say "screw it" and will pay. He has no intention of actually going to small claims court. He wants his chageback +$50.

Again, I'd check with Steam. It might be against the SSA to use a VPN to spoof to avoid region locks.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm pretty sure Section F of the agreement is what you're looking for:
You are entitled to use the Software for your own personal use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve, except to the extent expressly permitted elsewhere in this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use); (ii) host or provide matchmaking services for the Software or emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Software, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Software, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, websites or services, without the prior written consent of Valve; or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose.
(emphasis added)
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by GreenGoo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: That's why the guy is making the threat, he knows many people would just say "screw it" and will pay. He has no intention of actually going to small claims court. He wants his chageback +$50.
Of course. I'm just looking past that to the worries Alefroth might have if he tells the guy to have at it.

We both know the guy is going to make a bunch more noise and move on, but for Alefroth who has to worry about the consequences, no matter how unlikely they might be, it's good to know that the worst case scenario isn't particularly scary.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by GreenGoo »

Also, the part of Smoove's quote that he didn't highlight makes it possible that the original sale of the key was illegal in the first place, depending on GGW's standing in the distribution chain. Are they selling legally obtained keys meant for R5 to people in other regions? I could see that as a buyer beware situation. Are they reselling keys they bought in bulk from a recognized (by Steam/software company)? If so, they are already in violation of Steam's licensing.

If I was standing in front of a judge, I would say I bought the key in good faith, but upon receiving it and the extra instructions I grew suspicious. After reading some I was highly dubious that the transaction was legal I returned the key (lol?) and reversed the charges. Now the crook is trying to extort money from me.

Lil' help, small claims court guy? I'm American, you're American, but this crook is probably located in Nigeria somewhere, if you know what I mean. *wink* *wink*.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by LawBeefaroni »

GreenGoo wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote: That's why the guy is making the threat, he knows many people would just say "screw it" and will pay. He has no intention of actually going to small claims court. He wants his chageback +$50.
Of course. I'm just looking past that to the worries Alefroth might have if he tells the guy to have at it.

We both know the guy is going to make a bunch more noise and move on, but for Alefroth who has to worry about the consequences, no matter how unlikely they might be, it's good to know that the worst case scenario isn't particularly scary.
Well, if Ale tells him to piss off, the guy could file in hopes of a default judgement. Or not, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't just blow it off without talking to counsel first.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by GreenGoo »

Oh, see, I assumed the guy was overseas (where did he get region locked keys if he's not in Russia/wherever?) and I assumed Alefroth was in Maryland, because I thought he was suing in the state where the transaction originated.

In any case, I never suggested not getting legal advice, which should be a no brainer any time someone threatens (in a credible way) to sue you.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by LawBeefaroni »

GreenGoo wrote:Oh, see, I assumed the guy was overseas (where did he get region locked keys if he's not in Russia/wherever?) and I assumed Alefroth was in Maryland, because I thought he was suing in the state where the transaction originated.

In any case, I never suggested not getting legal advice, which should be a no brainer any time someone threatens (in a credible way) to sue you.
Guessing this is the business address.

The fact that he's in the US is what made me mention contacting Steam and/or Gearbox in my earlier post, he's obviously not a kosher reseller.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Blackhawk »

I would strongly consider reporting these events directly to Valve. Make it clear you aren't looking to them for a solution, but just want to inform them of what is taking place.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

GreenGoo wrote:First, small claims court has a max limit because after that it can no longer be "tried" in small claims court. Don't be frightened off by that number. Second, typical small claims court rulings cover the original costs. It's a way to have a legal option to make people play "fair". There is zero chance you are going to be forced to pay $600. I don't think the word punitive even exists in small claims. At worst, they might ask you to repay the original price plus some pittance, which is exactly what he's asking for.

Outside of the stress and time investment, why wouldn't you want this settled in court? I understand being risk adverse but this seems incredibly low risk. Using a VPN gate is for intentionally circumventing the restrictions on the licensing agreements for these keys. Using a VPN is not illegal. Using a VPN to break a licensing agreement without the licensor knowing has got to be a civil issue. Small claims should back you.

Bottom line, he is trying to bully you. You could completely ignore him, or go on the offensive, or simply take a passive role and wait for him to make another move.

I'd almost certainly fight it, because the risk is small, the product was scammish, and he's being a dick.

I probably wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place, but I would not be afraid of small claims court threats.
I would definitely appear if I lived in Maryland. I live in Washington.

The letter of intent said he could sue me in MD as per the terms of service. I read them today (the ToS was actually down the first two times I tried to access them) and didn't see any mention of that. But if the business is in MD, I suppose that's where the jurisdiction would be.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by stimpy »

Didnt you say the key doesnt work? If you can prove that, what kinda case does he have?
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:First, small claims court has a max limit because after that it can no longer be "tried" in small claims court. Don't be frightened off by that number. Second, typical small claims court rulings cover the original costs. It's a way to have a legal option to make people play "fair". There is zero chance you are going to be forced to pay $600. I don't think the word punitive even exists in small claims. At worst, they might ask you to repay the original price plus some pittance, which is exactly what he's asking for.

Outside of the stress and time investment, why wouldn't you want this settled in court? I understand being risk adverse but this seems incredibly low risk. Using a VPN gate is for intentionally circumventing the restrictions on the licensing agreements for these keys. Using a VPN is not illegal. Using a VPN to break a licensing agreement without the licensor knowing has got to be a civil issue. Small claims should back you.

Bottom line, he is trying to bully you. You could completely ignore him, or go on the offensive, or simply take a passive role and wait for him to make another move.

I'd almost certainly fight it, because the risk is small, the product was scammish, and he's being a dick.

I probably wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place, but I would not be afraid of small claims court threats.
How much (in both time and money) does it cost to fly from Washington to Maryland to appear in small claims court?

That's why the guy is making the threat, he knows many people would just say "screw it" and will pay. He has no intention of actually going to small claims court. He wants his chageback +$50.

Again, I'd check with Steam. It might be against the SSA to use a VPN to spoof to avoid region locks.
It is most certainly is against the SSA-

"You agree that you will not use IP proxying or other methods to disguise the place of your residence, whether to circumvent geographical restrictions on game content, to purchase at pricing not applicable to your geography, or for any other purpose. If you do this, we may terminate your access to your Account."

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Oh, see, I assumed the guy was overseas (where did he get region locked keys if he's not in Russia/wherever?) and I assumed Alefroth was in Maryland, because I thought he was suing in the state where the transaction originated.

In any case, I never suggested not getting legal advice, which should be a no brainer any time someone threatens (in a credible way) to sue you.
Guessing this is the business address.

The fact that he's in the US is what made me mention contacting Steam and/or Gearbox in my earlier post, he's obviously not a kosher reseller.
That's the address. I chuckled when I told the lawyer Funkstown.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

stimpy wrote:Didnt you say the key doesnt work? If you can prove that, what kinda case does he have?
I would say not a good one at all, but the real problem is having to appear in MD.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

Blackhawk wrote:I would strongly consider reporting these events directly to Valve. Make it clear you aren't looking to them for a solution, but just want to inform them of what is taking place.
I will indeed do that.

Thanks everyone for all the ideas. It's really a big help.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by tgb »

There's a doctrine in the law called clean hands, which essentially means that courts don't enforce or reward questionable transactions. When hepcat sold me that baby powder claiming it was primo Peruvian, there was nothing I could do. You should be safe.

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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Blackhawk »

tgb wrote: When hepcat sold me that baby powder claiming it was primo Peruvian, there was nothing I could do.
Does Hepcat not have kneecaps?
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Moat_Man »

From GGW website today:

None of our Products Require VPN
.

*STARTING DECEMBER 21ST 2012* We've heard you, and we've listened. You've told us, "We hate using a VPN to activate some keys!", so we have decided to remove all VPN Activated or VPN Required products from our website. All of our products are Region Free. In the event they are region restricted, it will indicate as such, though this would only be a USA only or EU only restriction; we will no longer sell foreign keys that require VPN activation. If you want us to supply you with foreign keys that require VPN, reach out to support@gameguideworld.net.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Kasey Chang »

In that case, reply that they themselves have invalidated their own argument. Either give you a key that does NOT require VPN, or you'll countersue them for fraud. ;) IMHO, of course.
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by stimpy »

And they added this:


"Over the holiday season we had an extremely high number of credit card chargebacks from customers that received their merchandise but knew they could get away with filing an unauthorized transaction chargeback with their credit card company ; and they did. During our holiday sale we were only making a few dollars per game, so if someone bought a game for $45, and we were only making $4, then they did a chargeback, that chargeback alone negated 10 non-chargedbacked sales due to losing all the money, not to mention Google Checkout does not fight chargebacks with us unlike PayPal, and they also charge a $10 chargeback fee. All in all, we lose money by allowing Google Checkout. Sorry to those who used it the right way; I hope in the future we can bring back an option you like."

Now I'd tell him to go fuck off.
He/Him/His/Porcupine
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Alefroth
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Re: [?] CHEAP Borderlands 2 Steam Key at GameGuideWorld DANG

Post by Alefroth »

Ha, poor guy :roll:

Interesting development. Wonder if it will strengthen my case.

Ale
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