Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

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Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Yes
32
65%
No
8
16%
Not sure
9
18%
 
Total votes: 49

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Grifman
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Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Grifman »

So I'm surprised this topic doesn't have its own thread, and given its timeliness and importance, I think we probably can discuss it here rather than bury it in another thread. So I first start us off with a poll.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Grifman »

I'll start with this article that opposes the filibuster under the principle that the greatest rule is to "do no harm". It lays out a very scary scenario where the Republicans regain power and what damage they could do without the filibuster to hamper them:



I tend to agree. I am very concerned about what the Republican could do without the filibuster constraining them and the above scenario was very chilling. I'd hate to live in that America.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Defiant »

I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Pyperkub »

I think the better solution is to flip the hold, so that in order to hold off the vote at least 41 Senators need to actually put their names to the holds. And /or lower the number needed to 55...
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Holman »

The Republican agenda is lower taxes, voter suppression, and culture war.

They can accomplish all of these whether Dems have the filibuster or not: taxes and budgets are not subject to the filibuster (due to reconciliation, a prior senate rule), judicial appointments are already exempt from it (due to another Senate rule), and voter suppression and culture war are up to state legislatures and the Supreme Court.

Does anyone really think the filibuster will last one minute longer than it inconveniences Republicans in a future GOP Congress?
Last edited by Holman on Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Holman »

The filibuster is not inherently virtuous, by the way. It's not in the Constitution, and it only became common practice as a means of opposing civil right legislation in the 1950s.

The founding fathers would have thought it pernicious because it thwarted decision in the body they considered most important for democratic self-rule.

(I voted "Yes," obviously)
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Kraken »

I lean Yes, but I went with Not sure.

It is imperative that HR-1 (the For the People Act) pass the Senate to preserve voting rights and overturn the wave of suppression that's occurring right now. If Republican gerrymanders and anti-voter laws are allowed to stand, Democrats will never hold power again. Republicans still control too many states, thanks to voter suppression, and they use that power to disenfranchise the majority. If that requires ending the filibuster (as opposed to altering it), then so be it. Democracy depends on it.

The next time Republicans control the Senate, they will kill it to cement their power because power is their entire agenda -- democracy doesn't suit them because their policies (insofar as they exist) are highly unpopular. Another argument for doing it now.

OTOH, Democrats need to have influence the next time they're in the minority. A watered-down filibuster might be the only way to ensure that, whether that means the talking filibuster or a lower vote threshold. I'm uncomfortable with stripping the minority party of its power to oppose -- with giving the majority party the power to pass whatever they jolly well want by one vote.

Also, the THREAT of losing the filibuster gives the minority party a strong incentive to play ball. Or it should do, anyway. The GOP will absolutely not play along on HR-1 because it's an existential threat to them. But some of them might go along with infrastructure or immigration reform if they know that absolute obstruction will cost them their power.

I guess I need a "Reform it first and see what happens" option.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by El Guapo »

Yes
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »

Yes, and they should be doing everything they can to stop whatever it is the GOP is turning into from regaining any power in 2022 and 2024.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Little Raven »

Oh god no. The Democrats play defense WAY more often than they play offence in the Senate, and the Constitution pretty much guarantees that situation will not change in the near future. Our wild swings in government are already dizzying when the executive changes. Without the filibuster, I fear they may topple us altogether.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Yes but chances are high it doesn't matter either way.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Grifman »

Defiant wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:07 pm I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
Because they didn't do it when Trump was in power and they had both the House and Senate.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Grifman wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:56 pm
Defiant wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:07 pm I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
Because they didn't do it when Trump was in power and they had both the House and Senate.
They did get rid of the filibuster for what they cared about, which was Supreme Court justices. Looking back over the last few years Senate parliamentary politics have become a tactical exercise in slow political Armageddon. The Republicans used it to obstruct to the point that the Democrats felt they needed to act during the Obama administration, then the Republicans used that as justification to take advantage of it, and here we are in the same situation again. Over and over. Always stepping closer to the edge. And here we are much closer to autocracy now.

We got a real taste of what it could look like and in the end that is why I think it won't matter. The Democrats don't act and we probably get autocracy. The Democrats act and we probably end up with autocracy. It is a grim picture but the road to stabilizing our democracy is winding, narrow, poorly lit, and frankly we don't have the political class with enough imagination or guts to plot the course along it. Worse, the same people who got us into the mess over the last 25-30 years ago are still running the show and they are still failing.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Alefroth »

If the Dems don't kill it, the GOP will and McConnell will be there with his shit-eating grin knowing he was able to pull the football away yet again.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Blackhawk »

Yesbut.

Yes, but they need to do it early and then us the time and power they've bought to fix voting and related abuses.

As someone else said, if they don't, the Republicans will, and they'll do it in a way that benefits them rather than the nation.
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Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Alefroth wrote:If the Dems don't kill it, the GOP will and McConnell will be there with his shit-eating grin knowing he was able to pull the football away yet again.
Yeah, this.

No justification needed by McConnell. But if he were to give one, he would just say “you saw how close the Dems were to doing this, it’s just a matter of time. Unfortunately we must act now, pre-emptively, otherwise we’ll be on the wrong side of this when it inevitably happens.”

I don’t buy the argument that the R’s won’t do it when they are next able, just because they haven’t yet. We’ve seen how quickly that party, if you want to call it that, has changed in the past 5 years. Is it becoming more or less reasonable and “serious”:D at seeming light speed?

I’ll throw out a super sloppy, lazy analogy and let you guys hone it since that’s what typically happens :)

Cops (Dems) arrive on the scene of a wild man crazily waving a gun around (Magas, aka The Crazy) in the middle of a very busy street. And oooh, it’s complicated - turns out wild man is an ex-cop! This dude has a hostage (American Democracy) and is verbally threatening to blow everyone up.

Somehow, cops are able to secure the situation peacefully enough to where the guy is no longer waving the gun around. Cops take gun, but he still has the hostage in a stranglehold, and he’s still clearly unstable (he’s literally frothing from his mouth!).

Maybe more importantly, only the visible, immediate danger has been defused (gun). Cops don’t know for sure, but suspect that dude has another tucked into his back waistband, or a knife, or a bomb.

Cops now have the temporary, tentative power in the situation.

They can
1. Get a sniper to take him out, with possible harm to hostage (kill filibuster)
2. Do nothing. Just wait him out and see what happens. And/or try to “talk him down”.
3. Bum rush him, hoping he has no other means of destruction. (Modify filibuster rules?)



Note that the hostage in this scenario might also be the GOP instead of American Democracy but I think it works better as is.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Blackhawk »

Shoot the hostage.

Take them out of the equation. Go for the good wound.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:33 amI don’t buy the argument that the R’s won’t do it when they are next able, just because they haven’t yet. We’ve seen how quickly that party, if you want to call it that, has changed in the past 5 years. Is it becoming more or less reasonable and “serious”:D at seeming light speed?
I don't think they have changed all that much faster in the last 5 years. They just undermined enough to finally start their end game which is the point where they can yank off their masks for the most part. They told us 20 years ago they were going to build a permanent Republican majority. 10 years into that project we elected a black President and the tea party rose as white lash against that black President and resisted his Presidency. They were white nationalism with a bullshit fiscal outlook.

They've methodically dismantled this democracy piece by piece in full view. And even now people still miss what has happened. That is why we are probably doomed. We are still talking about this tactical stuff when the Republicans are 90% of the way through implementing their strategy. They've locked up many states. They've locked up the courts. And the Democrats have formed the usual circular firing squad to debate the latch ditch effort. We're absolutely fucked.
Last edited by malchior on Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Defiant »

Grifman wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:56 pm
Defiant wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:07 pm I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
Because they didn't do it when Trump was in power and they had both the House and Senate.
They didn't block supreme court nominations from even getting a vote until they did.

If we're looking at their past behavior in order to predict their future behavior, what it tells me is that they're going to somehow manage to continue going lower and getting worse.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Defiant wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:16 am
Grifman wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:56 pm
Defiant wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:07 pm I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
Because they didn't do it when Trump was in power and they had both the House and Senate.
They didn't block supreme court nominations from even getting a vote until they did.

If we're looking at their past behavior in order to predict their future behavior, what it tells me is that they're going to somehow manage to continue going lower and getting worse.
Exactly. McConnell has been an absolute spider about this. He is patient. He waited for the right moments and they overall were strategic about it. They have taken power in bite sizes.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Blackhawk wrote:Shoot the hostage.

Take them out of the equation. Go for the good wound.
The hostage being American Democracy or the GOP?
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Blackhawk »

You'd have to ask Dennis Hopper.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Grifman »

Defiant wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:16 am
Grifman wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:56 pm
Defiant wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:07 pm I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
Because they didn't do it when Trump was in power and they had both the House and Senate.
They didn't block supreme court nominations from even getting a vote until they did.

If we're looking at their past behavior in order to predict their future behavior, what it tells me is that they're going to somehow manage to continue going lower and getting worse.
Democrats broke the judge filibuster rule first. People seem to forget that.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Holman »

Did the filibuster in the Trump years protect the country from anything McConnell wanted done? (And I mean McConnell, not Trump.)

I know Dems filibustered funding for Trump's wall and the GOP's home-grown coronavirus relief plan, but passing those were never Mitch McConnell priorities. I recall discussion that McConnell always found the message "Democrats are blocking the Good Thing" more politically useful than actually passing the Thing.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Blackhawk »

Not much. The rules were that it was blocked. But they didn't worry about the rules. They just abused executive orders to compensate.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Grifman wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:27 pm
Defiant wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:16 am
Grifman wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:56 pm
Defiant wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:07 pm I don't know (though I do think that if kept, it should, at least, be turned into the talking filibuster).

But what's to stop Republicans from getting rid of it when they gain power, given that they've shown no compunction about using dirty tactics let alone ignoring tradition and violating political norms?
Because they didn't do it when Trump was in power and they had both the House and Senate.
They didn't block supreme court nominations from even getting a vote until they did.

If we're looking at their past behavior in order to predict their future behavior, what it tells me is that they're going to somehow manage to continue going lower and getting worse.
Democrats broke the judge filibuster rule first. People seem to forget that.
I don't think anyone paying attention forgets it but the context matters. The filibuster went from rarely used to constantly used. Almost solely blocking Democratic action on judicial nominees. The Republicans court packing scheme was predicated on slowing down the process to a halt. If the Democrats hadn't 'broken' the rule first the current imbalance would have been even greater.
Holman wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:10 pmI know Dems filibustered funding for Trump's wall and the GOP's home-grown coronavirus relief plan, but passing those were never Mitch McConnell priorities. I recall discussion that McConnell always found the message "Democrats are blocking the Good Thing" more politically useful than actually passing the Thing.
I think this is right. If the Republicans cared about getting something done, for example funneling money to the wealthy they found a way. If it wasn't truly important but was perceived to build power then they grandstanded or committed to performative outrage about it. The big picture playbook is pretty obvious.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Smoove_B »

McConnell summarizes it - either let us continue to obstruct or deal with our wrath if you eliminate the filibuster.
“If they turn the Senate into a simple majority body, the Senate is lost,” McConnell said during a conservative podcast interview with “Ruthless.”

“It may not be the panacea that they anticipate it would be, it could turn the Senate into sort of a nuclear winter, where the aftermath of the so-called nuclear option is not a sustainable place,” McConnell added.
It's almost like he sees the role of the Senate as a legislative log-jam - where nothing is passed and nothing gets done.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by El Guapo »

McConnell alternates between "nuking the filibuster would be bad because then nothing would get done" and "nuking the filibuster would be bad because too much would get done, and policies would flip to opposite extremes between different Congresses". He doesn't care about maintaining any logical consistency in his arguments, so there's no real need to take them seriously.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:02 pmHe doesn't care about maintaining any logical consistency in his arguments, so there's no real need to take them seriously.
Tell that to the credulous media.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Remus West »

I voted yes but it carries the caveat that the expand all federal courts and fill them to counterbalance the damage done there by McConnell. Particularly the Supreme Court given how anti-sense that body has become under McTrumpell.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Kraken »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:45 pm McConnell summarizes it - either let us continue to obstruct or deal with our wrath if you eliminate the filibuster.
“If they turn the Senate into a simple majority body, the Senate is lost,” McConnell said during a conservative podcast interview with “Ruthless.”

“It may not be the panacea that they anticipate it would be, it could turn the Senate into sort of a nuclear winter, where the aftermath of the so-called nuclear option is not a sustainable place,” McConnell added.
It's almost like he sees the role of the Senate as a legislative log-jam - where nothing is passed and nothing gets done.
When your party platform is "none" that's the ideal role for the Senate.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Isgrimnur »

I mean, the next step is the Liberum veto.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Paingod »

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:45 pm McConnell summarizes it - either let us continue to obstruct or deal with our wrath if you eliminate the filibuster.
“If they turn the Senate into a simple majority body, the Senate is lost,” McConnell said during a conservative podcast interview with “Ruthless.”

“It may not be the panacea that they anticipate it would be, it could turn the Senate into sort of a nuclear winter, where the aftermath of the so-called nuclear option is not a sustainable place,” McConnell added.
It's almost like he sees the role of the Senate as a legislative log-jam - where nothing is passed and nothing gets done.
McConnell is operating under the assumption that Democrats won't notice that the Senate, when run by the GOP, is not about sustainable peace but total domination.

He's probably right, too. They'll opt to try and be civil with people who intend to pillage at the first opportunity. It's Tinkers bargaining with Trollocs.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I think he's almost assuredly correct in his assumption. Sadly. Where are the hard ass Democrats? Could that be Kamala Harris in 3.5 years? I sure hope so. I would love to see her visibly show some steel during this administration (as much as you can, with the limited power of the Veepship I guess).

And I will say it again, Pelosi needs to go...should have been gone. We need new ideas, and new blood to deal with this newly revealed American political reality. IMO.

I've struggled mightily with the idea of appeasement vs "go low", because it's a no-win situation. I think macro, ideologically, we have historically seen Democrats try to never go low, or at least that's the rhetoric (and trying to be as neutral as possible, that's MOSTLY been the reality). Republicans I think generally have perceived that as a weakness to be exploited (and McConnell is the GOAT here).

But this (Trump, post-Trump, Qanon, Jan 6) is new for America. As much as it sucks, sometimes you have to pull back your hand, and turn it into a fist. Now is that time IMO. We are beyond "how to deal with a bully". We've gone from the GOP/QOP saying "I STRONGLY disagree with your ideas and will do almost everything in my power to oppose them" to "I'm holding a bomb, and I support doing ANYthing to oppose your ideas, even condoning, or at least not condemning violence against you".

If there is hope to return to a "normal", functioning system, I don't think it's going to just happen organically, and we need to be asking some hard questions:

Can we ever get back to a place of bipartisanship that we have enjoyed previously in this system?
If so, what does that look like? What would a first step in that direction look like (details, not pie in sky "bipartisanship").
If not, what are the next steps?

Basically, is there ANYthing we, or any (all) branches of our government can do to pull out of this political (and really, existential, long term IMO) spiral?
Last edited by Carpet_pissr on Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:02 pmIf there is hope to return to a "normal", functioning system, I don't think it's going to just happen organically, and we need to be asking some hard questions:

Can we ever get back to a place of bipartisanship that we have enjoyed previously in this system?
There aren't too many examples of a political system that broke down this badly that just 'healed itself'.
If not, what are the next steps?
There aren't any. What you'll notice is despite an attempted insurrection the two sides have essentially gone back to their trenches and resumed the political warfare anew. No one even is bothering to get to the bottom of it because it doesn't matter. We know what happened. It is the world's worst kept secret. A President of the United States tried an autocoup with the support of street thugs. It failed and people don't want to acknowledge reality because it'd put them in the uncomfortable position of having to defend their inaction. They'll spit out some report about failures of security at the Capitol. They'll agree to some sort fix for that immediate problem but mostly we'll keep seeing various acts of performative bullshit happening. This is a system in failure.
Basically, is there ANYthing we, or any (all) branches of our government can do to pull out of this political (and really, existential, long term IMO) spiral?
If history has taught us anything though is that change often reads dramatically when read as a series of compressed events but appears disconnected at the time until packaged later. I think we're in the middle of that type of major inflection point in human history. I think at the moment the only surety is that things will get worse. We have major problems rotting away at not only our democracy but our society.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by YellowKing »

The other problem I see is that even with shifting demographics in this country, it's been demonstrated that the more the GOP lose the battle, the harder they fight. And that fighting means breaking all norms (and all laws) necessary to stay in the battle.

I fully believe the next time the GOP takes power, they are not going to chance another 2020. They're going to enact whatever laws necessary to seize and retain power for the forseeable future. We're already seeing it happen at the state level, it will happen at the federal level, and we will be fucked for decades.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by LordMortis »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:37 pm I fully believe the next time the GOP takes power, they are not going to chance another 2020. They're going to enact whatever laws necessary to seize and retain power for the forseeable future. We're already seeing it happen at the state level, it will happen at the federal level, and we will be fucked for decades.
I don't know if I believe it but I have absolutely nothing in the bag provides a reason to doubt it. Nothing. They've shown at every turn they're ready and willing and keep testing the waters for being able (Federally, locally the party and its funding expand to change the laws to retain control and fight to change existing law to empower their retention of the tyranny of the minority at every turn).
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Carpet_pissr
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

In case it wasn't clear "We've turned a corner from "I STRONGLY disagree with your ideas ...." - that's the GOP/QOP talking.

And I totally agree with the comment about each side just returning to their trenches. And even we, the people! No one really wants to face the reality of what happened. In general, we tend to be so caught up in how great we are, that we much too easily overlook things that indicate otherwise, like racism, an attempted coup, etc. Just pretend it didn't happen, or wasn't that bad, or is totally fine now, because in the American mind, to even think otherwise incorrectly means that we aren't great. That is a HUGE, largely American I think, flaw in our collective conscious/sub-conscious. If we could actually grow up a little bit and behave like adults, and at least be willing to talk about flaws and how we could be better, we all, would be in a better place right now. But the right has typically vilified that kind of discussion, labelling it anti-American, etc.

But this is what happens with head in sand behavior. Shit tends to fester. And I fear a festering "overthrow the government" sentiment will not end well for us.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by Paingod »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:52 pmI fear a festering "overthrow the government" sentiment will not end well for us.
They just kind of keep trying until they succeed. Unless they get burned.

So far no one's even warming up the fireplace.
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Re: Should the Democrats get rid of the filibuster?

Post by noxiousdog »

malchior wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:18 pm There aren't too many examples of a political system that broke down this badly that just 'healed itself'.
Ours, on multiple occasions. It wasn't a decade before early US politicians were writing Alien and Sedition acts to throw their political opponents in jail.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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