The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

Here in Los Angeles, they aren't waiting for folks in marginalized areas to go to the big sites for vaccines. They are bringing the vaccines to their neighborhoods along with their priest or pastor, and local pharmacists that they know. The marginalized areas have up to 50% immunity because Covid has hit them so hard. 40% of California's incoming vaccines are dedicated to those areas as well, and counties can't move up in tiers until they've demonstrated that a substantial amount of the people living in those areas have gotten vaccinated.

I do wish like hell that they'd used these same people in the initial messaging for Covid, but at least they are correcting the issue, and hopefully LA is on its way to some sort of herd immunity.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41315
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:37 am
There has been a push for prominent state and national public health figures to start getting more political - start running for office. I don't know how that will work out either.
This one doesn't make much sense to me. We've seen public health narratives undermined by political considerations. I can't think of a worse medicine. It isn't like politicians are more trusted. If invisibility is the problem become more visible. I don't get layering in a new layer of distrust. Still I get folks are just trying different ideas out.
I assume the hope is to have health professionals in "the room where it happens" when decisions are being made on how much funding to give health agencies, in deciding what health efforts to fund, in assessing health communications by the state, etc.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:28 pm I assume the hope is to have health professionals in "the room where it happens" when decisions are being made on how much funding to give health agencies, in deciding what health efforts to fund, in assessing health communications by the state, etc.
It has happened - quite recently.

I should also note that up until relatively recently, public health lobbyists were...not a thing. For my own state, our public health local leaders *refused* to rebrand and join the national organization because it would mean (1) alignment with a national movement and (2) paying money to a lobbyist. I'd have to look, but I think it only happened (abandonment of state-level independent identity to join national organization) in the last decade.

Public health is highly fractured in my own state; it's even more fractured nationwide.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55361
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

It's all politics, Smoove. Look at how policy varies state by state. Here we have a mayor laying down a different set of rules for vaccination than the state and feds. You have all municipalities widely varying guidance for businesses and gatherings. Few to none of the variances are based on evidence, just political calculations.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:58 pm It's all politics, Smoove. Look at how policy varies state by state. Here we have a mayor laying down a different set of rules for vaccination than the state and feds. You have all municipalities widely varying guidance for businesses and gatherings. Few to none of the variances are based on evidence, just political calculations.
For better or worse, that's deliberate. What can work in California may very well not work in Wyoming. In the specific case of Covid, there are counties in CA that have hardly any people living there and they are nearly normal lives except masks. And other counties where Covid is still a big problem. So the policies have to go with what's going on locally. And of course that can become political, but really you would not want a one size fits all policy (except for masking) for the entire country.

At the end of the day, too many people are interested in keeping white supremacy over anything rational, and they associate anything rational with removing their white supremacy. They suffer terribly for this, in many many ways, but until national leaders get these people past racism, that's how it's going to be.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55361
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Lorini wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:07 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:58 pm It's all politics, Smoove. Look at how policy varies state by state. Here we have a mayor laying down a different set of rules for vaccination than the state and feds. You have all municipalities widely varying guidance for businesses and gatherings. Few to none of the variances are based on evidence, just political calculations.
For better or worse, that's deliberate. What can work in California may very well not work in Wyoming. In the specific case of Covid, there are counties in CA that have hardly any people living there and they are nearly normal lives except masks. And other counties where Covid is still a big problem. So the policies have to go with what's going on locally. And of course that can become political, but really you would not want a one size fits all policy (except for masking) for the entire country.

I'd agree with regional differences but we're using random map boundaries rather than evidence. Why is Illinois different from Indiana different from Michigan? Why is far down state Illinois the same as a Chicago suburb? It's like we're applying tax strategy to public health.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:33 pm
Lorini wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:07 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:58 pm It's all politics, Smoove. Look at how policy varies state by state. Here we have a mayor laying down a different set of rules for vaccination than the state and feds. You have all municipalities widely varying guidance for businesses and gatherings. Few to none of the variances are based on evidence, just political calculations.
For better or worse, that's deliberate. What can work in California may very well not work in Wyoming. In the specific case of Covid, there are counties in CA that have hardly any people living there and they are nearly normal lives except masks. And other counties where Covid is still a big problem. So the policies have to go with what's going on locally. And of course that can become political, but really you would not want a one size fits all policy (except for masking) for the entire country.

I'd agree with regional differences but we're using random map boundaries rather than evidence. Why is Illinois different from Indiana different from Michigan? Why is far down state Illinois the same as a Chicago suburb? It's like we're applying tax strategy to public health.
Yep, it's the best we've got. They are not going to create new communities especially for Covid because that's just another layer of government. And when Covid is over then what? Doesn't Illinois have counties or county equivalents so that far south Illinois could have a different Covid strategy than Chicago?
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

I mean, this is what we're still dealing with at a national level:


Rep. @Jim_Jordan
asks when Americans get liberty & freedom back.

Dr. Fauci: "You're indicating liberty & freedom. I look at it as a public health measure to prevent people from dying and going to the hospital...This will end for sure when we get the level of infection very low.
Jordan's tone is disgusting. I give Dr. Fauci credit. I was have been throwing chairs.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28133
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

Deeply unserious people.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Like...Jim Jordan voted against relief but now he's a champion of the people? He's a grandstanding touchhole and an embarrassment to public service.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70212
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Hey Jim Jordan, when will you bring back nearly 600,000 from their COVID deaths so they can exercise their first amendment rights, so they can gather in their homes with friends, so they can go to church, they can petition their government, so they can attend a funeral. I just want to know the measure? You know what's up. Tell me. It's a simple question. When is the time? What is the metric of dead and what risk is acceptable for not understanding chronic conditions is OK. How many are you willing to sacrifice? What's the measure? it's obvious you don't see this is a public health problem, what is the measure? You think the virus gives a single flying fuck about your interpretation of the constitution?

Fucker's all constitution this and that when not three months ago he was in the vanguard to wipe his ass with it in attempt to overturn the election and deny the certification of the 46th President of the United States. You lost all freedom and Constitution high ground you might have thought you had.

Edit: Wow. I really do wonder how long it is going to be for me to get over the people trying to take my vote away. I think I'm all fine one day and then a day of disgust hits me as bad as if we elected someone like the 45th. Is that what flashbacks are like? Or is that just sign gajillion that I'm getting old and need a cane for sky shaking?
malchior
Posts: 24795
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:34 pm Like...Jim Jordan voted against relief but now he's a champion of the people? He's a grandstanding touchhole and an embarrassment to public service.
He is a champion of the people unless they are being sexually abused.
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30194
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by YellowKing »

Jordan sounds like a 5-year old throwing a tantrum because his mom told him Christmas was still 6 months away.

Half a million dead. DEAD. And all this fuckwad cares about is that he has to wear a mask when he goes to Target.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82287
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Isgrimnur »

BI
California Rep. Maxine Waters erupted at Ohio Rep. Jim Jordan on Thursday while the Republican lawmaker was berating Dr. Anthony Fauci during a House subcommittee hearing on the COVID-19 pandemic.
...
Waters intervened on Thursday as Jordan was in the middle of grilling Fauci, telling the Republican lawmaker to "respect the chair and shut your mouth."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

There's no one in public health - not even Dr. Fauci - that can compete with this

Tucker brings on Glenn Beck to talk about that the covid vaccine is “about something else.” Beck then says he won’t be getting the vaccine citing his prior case of covid. Tucker warns that getting vaccine if you have antibodies is dangerous.
It's disinformation being blasted out of a firehouse in the homes of millions.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16518
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zarathud »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:25 pm Jordan sounds like a 5-year old throwing a tantrum because his mom told him Christmas was still 6 months away.

Half a million dead. DEAD. And all this fuckwad cares about is that he has to wear a mask when he goes to Target.
Public Health is like National Security. You reclaim your Constitutional rights once the virus is under control, asshole.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70212
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Does Tucker ever not look like a three year old trying to figure out why unsweetened chocolate does not taste like the Easter bunny?
User avatar
YellowKing
Posts: 30194
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:02 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by YellowKing »

He's got a resting moron face.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41315
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

Zarathud wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:27 am
YellowKing wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:25 pm Jordan sounds like a 5-year old throwing a tantrum because his mom told him Christmas was still 6 months away.

Half a million dead. DEAD. And all this fuckwad cares about is that he has to wear a mask when he goes to Target.
Public Health is like National Security. You reclaim your Constitutional rights once the virus is under control, asshole.
eh, not sure I would use that analogy. The thing with rights lost for temporary national security emergencies is that the loss of rights tends not to be temporary.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

I guess we'd need to really argue then as to whether or not the government or a business requiring that you wear a mask in public infringes upon your Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

I'll let the audience guess what my position is.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16518
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zarathud »

But Republicans and Americans will happily make that trade off. Typhoid Mary sat in quarantine for years, so don’t tell me there isn’t long precedent.

We cannot allow Jim Jordan to make this bullshit argument because it’s historically wrong. And will kill us in more ways than one.

But I’ve been a communitarian for decades after realizing these problems with libertarian dogma.
Last edited by Zarathud on Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 29840
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by stessier »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:56 am I guess we'd need to really argue then as to whether or not the government or a business requiring that you wear a mask in public infringes upon your Constitutionally guaranteed rights.
I've learned that the correct legal answer is almost always "It depends."
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles____2018: 1318.91 miles__2019: 2000.00 miles
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Zarathud wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:57 am But Republicans and Americans will happily make that trade off. Typhoid Mary sat in quarantine for years, so don’t tell me there isn’t long precedent.
I'll humbly suggest that's not a good example; it was a rather complex situation that wouldn't occur today (she was held indefinitely until she died). She was a poor immigrant with limited skills; it didn't help her case. We can't hold people indefinitely now - whatever order we issue has a laundry list of items that need to be addressed in front of a judge.
We cannot allow Jim Jordan to make this bullshit argument because it’s historically wrong. And will kill us in more ways than one.
I have no doubts legal scholars are going to be debating 2020 and beyond for the next decade. Things that I was taught (and that I teach) that were considered firmly established (like the powers of local health) are being overturned in various locations nationwide. The courts have repeatedly been on the side of public health in permitting limits on individual freedoms during times of public health crisis. The problem is we have no modern example of something of this scale and length. Add in how it was intentionally made worse and I honestly don't know what the landscape looks like when we're all done.

Just focusing on the vaccination battle, here in NJ in January of 2020 (right before the pandemic), the State lost its case in trying to put hard limits on childhood vaccination exemptions. NJ is a pretty liberal state but our legislators were swayed by a small vocal group and so loopholes still exist. This type of attack is coordinated and has been happening nationwide for 2+ decades. It has without question impacted our current trajectory.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

Here in CA they had a bunch of anti-vax exceptions until there was a measles outbreak at Disneyland. Now it's nearly impossible to get an anti-vax exception for your kid. They also went after a doctor who was doing anti-vax exemptions for $100 a pop.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Yes, I use the CA measles case in my class - it's a great example and well documented. :D There was actually an even bigger measles outbreak in CA that happened between 1988 and 1990 (also well documented and there's been a few papers written). And (you might want to sit down) it was largely focused on poor Hispanics. There was a lapse in immunization programs and education and so overall herd immunity dropped in CA significantly. Lessons were learned...and then forgotten.

Regardless, I think CA was able to pass legislation because of what happened - the public support was there because there was a visible, relatable event that occurred. We haven't had that happen here yet; everything we're trying to do is to reduce the risk of it happening. However, I've learned time and time again, humans don't typically support proactive public health initiatives.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43851
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Blackhawk »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:30 pm Indiana's mask mandate lifted today. Wal-Mart still officially requires shoppers to have masks. I had to swing by the local store to pick up some water today.

I'd estimate that about 40% of the people I saw were wearing masks. All of the employees were, of course, including the employee wearing a confederate flag mask (which I reported to their ethics hotline when I got home.)

Whada woild.
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:29 pm I hope that bypassing the usual 'feedback' pit at Wal-Mart (which just relays the feedback to the local store) and going directly to their national ethics site will result in a better response. Of course, I'm unlikely to ever know the outcome, but I did what I could.

Nope. They passed the buck and told me to contact the store manager. The same store manager that allowed him to wear it in the first place.

11 months after making the news for doing exactly the same thing.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Formix
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:48 am

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Formix »

It seems like it's just okay to ignore mandates. I was in a local town yesterday that is almost as popular with the tourists as Asheville, and I saw, at best, 10% of the folks wearing masks. And when I say wearing them, I don't mean they had them around their necks or off their nose, I mean there was no mask anywhere in sight. Literally, hundreds of people walking around without masks, even though we still have a mask mandate. If I didn't have kids, I'd say that I welcome our upcoming extinction event, because as a species, we're just too selfish and stupid to survive.
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25747
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by dbt1949 »

I saw on TV the other day where our governor doesn't think we'll get more than 70% of Arkansas fully vaccinated. Truly Trump country.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

When people ask me why I'll be wearing a mask for the foreseeable future, avoiding dining in restaurants, and avoiding crowds, here's why:
One listing offered eBay customers an “Authentic CDC Vaccination Record Card” for $10.99. Another promised the same but for $9.49. A third was more oblique, offering a “Clear Pouch For CDC Vaccination Record Card” for $8.99, but customers instead received a blank vaccination card (and no pouch).

All three listings were posted by the same eBay user, who goes by “asianjackson” – using an account registered to a man who works as a pharmacist in the Chicago area – and all were illegal, federal regulators say. The account sold more than 100 blank vaccination cards in the past two weeks, according to The Washington Post’s review of purchases linked to it.

...

For months, officials have been a step behind the scammers, who have openly discussed strategies to fake the cards on social media, sold them on sites such as eBay and pulled blank photos off state websites. Federal officials’ decision to use paper cards that can be easily photocopied or even printed off a template, rather than a digital tracking system, worsened those risks.

“This is exactly the scenario that you want to guard against. It undermines the entire effort by having falsified cards out there,” said Jennifer Kates, who oversees global health policy for the Kaiser Family Foundation and reviewed asianjackson’s eBay listings. “It certainly bolsters the argument for a digitized mechanism – which isn’t a tamper-proof system, but certainly a more secure one.”
Last edited by Smoove_B on Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24795
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

Formix wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:13 am It seems like it's just okay to ignore mandates. I was in a local town yesterday that is almost as popular with the tourists as Asheville, and I saw, at best, 10% of the folks wearing masks. And when I say wearing them, I don't mean they had them around their necks or off their nose, I mean there was no mask anywhere in sight. Literally, hundreds of people walking around without masks, even though we still have a mask mandate. If I didn't have kids, I'd say that I welcome our upcoming extinction event, because as a species, we're just too selfish and stupid to survive.
It is interesting because I don't think this is a 'species' problem. I see it as American exceptionalism was a run of good luck especially in regards to geography and natural resources, but the system was flawed from the beginning. I think we're at a point where this Lockean experiment in nearly absolute 'human rights' has reached an inflection point where we can start the debate whether other governmental philosophies are more scalable and lead to more humane outcomes. It sounds a bit crazy but relying on individuals to act cooperatively without coercive government is starting to look like it delivers dismal results even compared to some 'so-called' oppressive regimes.

What is more oppressive? Not having nearly unlimited access to guns or worrying that your spouse will get mad one day and blow your head off or that you or loved ones might get mowed down by a brony misanthrope at work or a supermarket because they can't get laid. Or less extremely, being 'forced' to wear a mask for the 30 minutes you go to a store is somehow more oppressive than giving someone a deadly disease that'll sideline them for weeks, months, or years.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41315
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:46 pm
Formix wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:13 am It seems like it's just okay to ignore mandates. I was in a local town yesterday that is almost as popular with the tourists as Asheville, and I saw, at best, 10% of the folks wearing masks. And when I say wearing them, I don't mean they had them around their necks or off their nose, I mean there was no mask anywhere in sight. Literally, hundreds of people walking around without masks, even though we still have a mask mandate. If I didn't have kids, I'd say that I welcome our upcoming extinction event, because as a species, we're just too selfish and stupid to survive.
It is interesting because I don't think this is a 'species' problem. I see it as American exceptionalism was a run of good luck especially in regards to geography and natural resources, but the system was flawed from the beginning. I think we're at a point where this Lockean experiment in nearly absolute 'human rights' has reached an inflection point where we can start the debate whether other governmental philosophies are more scalable and lead to more humane outcomes. It sounds a bit crazy but relying on individuals to act cooperatively without coercive government is starting to look like it delivers dismal results even compared to some 'so-called' oppressive regimes.

What is more oppressive? Not having nearly unlimited access to guns or worrying that your spouse will get mad one day and blow your head off or that you or loved ones might get mowed down by a brony misanthrope at work or a supermarket because they can't get laid. Or less extremely, being 'forced' to wear a mask for the 30 minutes you go to a store is somehow more oppressive than giving someone a deadly disease that'll sideline them for weeks, months, or years.
That sounds crazy because it is. Lots of democratic countries have responded well to COVID - e.g., Australia, South Korea, Japan, etc. There is a degree to which America is more focused on individual rights than a lot of other countries, which can I think be a hindrance to effective responses on collective issues, but it's surmountable and a matter of degree rather than kind. The bigger issue for us is that our archaic political and constitutional structure empowers our crazy reactionaries disproportionately.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

The more people you have, the more likely you are to have a lot of different opinions. I don't like comparisons of the US with island or near island nations because containment for those nations is a lot easier than here, especially because they tend not to have the culture of 'nearly anything goes' that's found in the US. Also islands are a lot easier to protect than giant nations like the US or like whole continents like Latin America. Comparing the US response to France (which I don't have info on) would be somewhat more reasonable, even though France can nearly fit inside the state of California.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

I know this is going to sound touchy-feely, but I have genuine belief the idea of "self over all" has carved our current path. My belief is that Americans as a whole have little to no connection with the communities they live in and so the idea of thinking like a community member (i.e. my choices potentially impact others) isn't a factor. I base this on my anecdotal experiences in the public sector and the apathy I've encountered from the tax-paying masses.

On top of that, there's been documented declines in various volunteer and service club memberships over the last 25+ years, nationwide - organizations that promoted and reinforced community. This is why living in the age of social media is so ironic - we're more connected than ever and yet likely the most disconnected we've ever been. It's getting worse.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Daveman
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Daveman »

Here in South Jersey my wife and I, plus my in-laws and extended family have gotten both Pfizer shots. On Friday our 18 yo son got his email prompting him to schedule his shots but we ran into issues with the website... kept telling us we had to select a location where he received his first shot but we were making his first appointment?

We put in a service ticket and to my surprise got a reply last night, telling us to call the support line. Girding myself for a lengthy time on hold this morning I was shocked when someone picked up in less than a minute, found a glitch in his registration and corrected it.

We could have gotten an appointment this afternoon at the Gloucester County mega site but with his schedule went with Thursday instead. Is this a good or bad sign that on the first wide-open registration date we could get an appointment right away with no hassle?
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Daveman wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:10 pm We could have gotten an appointment this afternoon at the Gloucester County mega site but with his schedule went with Thursday instead. Is this a good or bad sign that on the first wide-open registration date we could get an appointment right away with no hassle?
NYC had thousands of open appointments over the weekend; I think there's concern we just rocketed through the supply issue and are about to see that demand doesn't match anymore. There was some talk about people saying they were intentionally waiting (in NYC) to get the first shots (I think) over the perception that the sites were crowded and that they'd be at increased risk for exposure while waiting in line, but I'm not really sure that's driving the gap we're seeing now in some places.

Anecdotally, there were quite a few openings in my rural corner of NJ as well , all last week and into the weekend.

We sure are living in interesting times.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24795
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:51 am
malchior wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:46 pm
Formix wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:13 am It seems like it's just okay to ignore mandates. I was in a local town yesterday that is almost as popular with the tourists as Asheville, and I saw, at best, 10% of the folks wearing masks. And when I say wearing them, I don't mean they had them around their necks or off their nose, I mean there was no mask anywhere in sight. Literally, hundreds of people walking around without masks, even though we still have a mask mandate. If I didn't have kids, I'd say that I welcome our upcoming extinction event, because as a species, we're just too selfish and stupid to survive.
It is interesting because I don't think this is a 'species' problem. I see it as American exceptionalism was a run of good luck especially in regards to geography and natural resources, but the system was flawed from the beginning. I think we're at a point where this Lockean experiment in nearly absolute 'human rights' has reached an inflection point where we can start the debate whether other governmental philosophies are more scalable and lead to more humane outcomes. It sounds a bit crazy but relying on individuals to act cooperatively without coercive government is starting to look like it delivers dismal results even compared to some 'so-called' oppressive regimes.

What is more oppressive? Not having nearly unlimited access to guns or worrying that your spouse will get mad one day and blow your head off or that you or loved ones might get mowed down by a brony misanthrope at work or a supermarket because they can't get laid. Or less extremely, being 'forced' to wear a mask for the 30 minutes you go to a store is somehow more oppressive than giving someone a deadly disease that'll sideline them for weeks, months, or years.
That sounds crazy because it is. Lots of democratic countries have responded well to COVID - e.g., Australia, South Korea, Japan, etc. There is a degree to which America is more focused on individual rights than a lot of other countries, which can I think be a hindrance to effective responses on collective issues, but it's surmountable and a matter of degree rather than kind. The bigger issue for us is that our archaic political and constitutional structure empowers our crazy reactionaries disproportionately.
That wasn't anti-democracy. More so just comparing us to other systems. For example, many here consider Britain's libel and loser pay's system and Germany's hate speech laws as less free/more oppressive. At the more extreme end China's totalitarian capitalism experiment obviously has many shortfalls but is smoking us in several areas.

I was trying to say that our founder's believed they were intellectual descendants of Locke and set up that archaic structure accordingly. They thought that providing the most individual freedom possible would be stable. It was 'distorted' since then and it was bullshit when you think about non-white, non-female participation but at the core it was an experiment in extreme freedom. And I've increasingly been convinced that the United States experiment in mostly unfettered natural "rights of man" has not scaled and isn't tenable as the population increased.

For example, back to how most Democracies don't allow hate speech. We somehow think that better ideas will win out but its arguable that our country is poisoned with white supremacy right now - especially throughout important functions like the police. Or that recently we've evolved to easy access to powerful guns for pretty much everyone and that has led to near daily murder sprees. And when I look at other democracies that aren't as "free" as ours I wonder if they've pretty much proved that the American concept of governance is flawed all the way down.

Edit: Back on topic, even now we recently had SCOTUS say that COVID restrictions weren't constitutional if they possibly infringed on religious activity even when other secular activities are held to the same standard. We keep inventing new ways to endanger the population and somehow think that America is exceptional. I'm at the point where like others I want to leave because I see this as a lost cause. Our bedrock principles are killing us and we can't even talk about fixing issues. In the past this mostly worked out because we weren't challenged by outside forces that could beat us. Now that we are it's beginning to unwind on us now. And it is going to be ugly.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Great opinion piece from the CEO or the RWJF published this morning in USA Today:
Americans face a challenge of our own making on the path to herd immunity: our failure to properly consider the needs of children.

While we can celebrate the fact that more than 200 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been administered in the U.S., few of them, outside of clinical trials, have gone into the arms of children younger than 16. That’s why we need to recalibrate our expectations — and redouble our efforts — so that the tens of millions of children in this country are kept safe.

As both parents and pediatricians, we’re troubled by the governors who appear to have declared victory, removing mask mandates, fully reopening businesses, and acting with apparent disregard for what this virus is capable of. What was true a year ago remains so today: children are only protected when adults do their part. When adults get vaccinated, a growing body of evidence suggests that they also protect those who cannot: children and people with medical conditions which preclude them from being vaccinated. But until children are vaccinated, they and many adults in their communities will be at risk, and a full return to normal life is premature.

...

We have reached a critical juncture in the pandemic, with climbing vaccination rates, declining death rates and effective short-term policy responses. Even so, this pandemic is not over: tens of thousands of new cases are still reported each day, variants are spreading rapidly and some states’ commitment to public health guidance is waning. The policy and public health decisions we make over the next few months will determine when and how this pandemic will end.

Our children have been steadfast in their patience, given what they’ve endured. Now it’s our turn to remain steadfast in our efforts to keep them safe.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70212
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Rest assured, when I am fully vaccinated, I will do everything in my power to continue to stay away from children 16 and under. Actually, to be safe, let's make that 25 and under.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54703
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

LordMortis wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:41 pm Rest assured, when I am fully vaccinated, I will do everything in my power to continue to stay away from children 16 and under. Actually, to be safe, let's make that 25 and under.
Just by being fully vaccinated, you're helping - even if you're not in proximity! Think of yourself as a pylon, helping to power additional defenses.

YOU MUST BUILD ADDITIONAL PYLONS

In other news, I am hoping this is widely circulated as well as an example of what we can do, once the numbers are right:


#publichealth officials not requiring life long mask mandates. Israel just dropped outdoor mask mandate after going below average 25 #COVID19 cases per million per day. Likely can abandon indoor when <5 cases if maintain
With freedom being more important here, I'm not exactly sure how this will all work. When some states are already mask free that's going to drive up infections so for states still using masks I'm not sure I'd encourage going maskless until we're at a nationwide low-level. The fear (for me) would be to say in one state we're now clear to go maskless, but our neighbors that have been doing it for 2+ months already are seeding more cases, which means eventually our rates will go up again and mask mandates could come back. Easier to maintain a current path than to message on/off guidelines, imho.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13751
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Max Peck »

Well, it's taken him a year to do it, but Doug Ford (the populist Conservative Premier of Ontario) has finally lived up to my early expectations that he would Trump up the pandemic response. It becomes official with the Washington Post publishing an op-ed calling on Ford to resign following his most recent policy shenanigans.

Opinion: Doug Ford must resign
As Ontario Premier Doug Ford sat down at a Friday afternoon news conference to announce his plans to extend the province’s covid-19 measures, social media feeds erupted with posts from around the province, from around the country, uniformly expressing outrage, frustration, shock and despondence.

Ford opened by blaming the federal government for not providing the province with sufficient vaccine supply, abdicating his responsibility for a pandemic that was never going to be solved immediately by vaccines. He moved on to the absurd claim that Ontario has the toughest measures in North America, which is untrue. He said he was restricting outdoor gatherings (which tend to be far safer than indoor gatherings) while permitting factories, food-processing plants and warehouses to operate, intimating that a seesaw is a greater threat than a fulfillment center — or, at least, that outdoor recreation and the physical and mental health that comes with it are less important than moving goods. On Saturday, he reversed a decision to close playgrounds but kept other outdoor restrictions in place.

Gaunt and drawn on Friday, he announced that his government was empowering police to arbitrarily stop anyone who is outside their residence during the province’s lockdown, giving law enforcement extraordinary powers that threaten civil rights, especially among vulnerable and racialized populations. Within hours of the news conference, several police departments indicated they would not being conducting “random” checks, including Ottawa, Waterloo and Peterborough. Others soon followed, including Toronto and Hamilton. That may seem welcome news, but it is not nearly good enough. These statements are not guarantees that individuals won’t be harassed, intimidated, fined or arrested. On Saturday, Ford updated this measure, too; the regulation, however, remains a civil liberties threat.

As he deflected blame and lost the plot, Ford made no mention of paid sick days, which advocates have been begging for. Indeed, aside from promising to improve hot-spot vaccination distribution and limit interprovincial travel, he offered little of value to fight Ontario’s third wave, as cases surge and the health system nears the brink of collapse. We’ve all heard that we ought not to let the perfect become the enemy of the good, but it’s a bit too much to expect us to let whatever is politically expedient for the premier take the place of what is necessary for the rest of us.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Post Reply