The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Lorini »

Well thus the need for vaccine passports. A lot of people support them in CA.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by YellowKing »

I work for a hospital where other types of vaccinations (flu, tetanus, etc) are mandatory.

We have a robust vaccination system with multiple vaccination sites and super-easy access for employees to make appointments with a click of a button.

Yet to date, only 62% of staff are vaccinated. I totally believe "the wall" is real. If we can't get 40% of our vaccine-familiar healthcare workers dosed, I don't know what hope we have for the rest of the population.

I also fully support vaccine passports, because I don't think the stick is working. We need a carrot, and that carrot needs to be access to movies, concerts, vacations, and other fun things. Then if you still don't want to get the shot, enjoy being bored out of your mind for another year while everyone else has fun.
Last edited by YellowKing on Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Well thus the need for vaccine passports. A lot of people support them in CA.
For reference, there's been a real strong push to stop referring to them as "vaccine passports" and instead use vaccine proof.

it sounds like a small distinction (and it is), but apparently the research that's been done on the "vaccine passport" phrase has insanely high pushback from the usual suspects. When it's instead framed as a statement of fact ("vaccine proof"), acceptance improves.

I haven't seen it widely reported yet, but it's something that might eventually make its way through the CDC language and advice - the pressure is coming from lower levels to make the change in phrasing.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by noxiousdog »

The good part of that is the lower the population density, the lower the risk to the rest of us.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Need to wait to see how it plays out. My wife still isn't eligible and refuses to let me get her a shot at work because she refuses to "cut". She won't officially be eligible for another 2 weeks. There's is a huge backlog in urban areas.

If rural areas are hitting the end of demand I see some problems but if 40% of rural Illinois county who refuse a poke represents 1,100 people and there are still 2M waiting and eager to get vaccinated in Chicago, ship those fucking doses to the city.



Edit: one of the wife's students is a banking exec with a place in Georgia. He went down there to get his vaccine and has been inviting people to fly down to get theirs. Apparently you can just walk in day of and be done in 20 mins.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:54 am The good part of that is the lower the population density, the lower the short-term risk to the rest of us.
Slight adjustment. Either way, as long as there are entire countries scrambling to get vaccinated (and that haven't even started yet), we're all still at risk. More virus circulating means more of a chance of a mutation that can have breakthrough. It's in our collective (human) best interest to get as many people on the planet vaccinated as quickly as possible; no half measures.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:58 am
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:54 am The good part of that is the lower the population density, the lower the short-term risk to the rest of us.
Slight adjustment. Either way, as long as there are entire countries scrambling to get vaccinated (and that haven't even started yet), we're all still at risk. More virus circulating means more of a chance of a mutation that can have breakthrough. It's in our collective (human) best interest to get as many people on the planet vaccinated as quickly as possible; no half measures.
Which is why % numbers based on geography rather than population is completely misleading. If 90% of a town with population of 24 refuses to vaccinate, who cares when you have a waiting list 10,000 long in the nearest city, even if that city is at 70% vaccinated?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

:shock:

Pfizer-BioNTech have asked the FDA to extend authorization of the vaccine to kids 12-15. That means the authorization could be in hand in just 3-4 weeks. (Dosage is the same as in adults, so no reason kids can't start getting vaccinated right after).
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by ImLawBoy »

That would be great. My wife took my oldest to a doctor's appointment today and the doctor said he expected authorization for kids 6-11 to come in 9-12 months. If they can speed the 12-16 cohort up, though, that bodes well for the younger set, too.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by hitbyambulance »

WA state now has a 'no questions asked' policy for vaccinations. you're supposed to be on the honor system, but if you fill out the eligibility form honestly and you aren't in the qualifying group, you will still be approved for an appt - but you are 'not supposed to do that'. so the eligibility questionnaire is completely useless AND misleading.

i think a lot of people are in the mindset of that if the eligibility form says they're good to go, they're going to go for it no matter what.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by dbt1949 »

Personally I think by this time anyone (adults) who wants it should be able to get it.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

The FDA and CDC have announced that they are calling for an immediate pause on the use of the single-dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine on Tuesday after discovering six cases in the United States of a rare and severe type of blood clot that developed about two weeks after the vaccine was administered in these patients.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-calls-halt ... d=77040882
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by hepcat »

dbt1949 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:26 pm Personally I think by this time anyone (adults) who wants it should be able to get it.
My stepfather refuses to get it, as does my brother and his partner. All three just shrug when asked why and say because they don't think they need it, or because it might cause side effects. Meanwhile, I urged my 84 year old father to get it as soon as he was able to and he did. He didn't try to give excuses for why he wouldn't, he didn't complain, he didn't put it off...he just did it because he knows he's in the high danger group for Covid and it was the smart thing to do.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Finally convinced my 82 YO Dad to get it last week. But did it very reluctantly and insisted on JNJ - nothing else.

Well he did get it, but not without sarcastically reading the warnings out loud to everyone within hearing distance in the store (I think it was CVS, all this according to my sister who went with him).
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

Defiant wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:02 am
The FDA and CDC have announced that they are calling for an immediate pause on the use of the single-dose Johnson & Johnson vaccine on Tuesday after discovering six cases in the United States of a rare and severe type of blood clot that developed about two weeks after the vaccine was administered in these patients.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-calls-halt ... d=77040882
Smoove, what do you think about this? My first reaction is that it seems like any benefits of a pause in light of what seems to be at most an *extremely* rare side effect is likely to be dramatically outweighed by the costs in terms of likely increased vaccine hesitancy for J&J and for vaccinations in general.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

A pause is warranted, given the EUA. With 6 individuals out of ~8 million shots (in terms of incidence) experiencing the effect, this is being done out of an abundance of caution, not a sense of alarm. I don't know enough about the condition to say what the expected incidence is in a given population but at some point the numbers get nutty when you're vaccinating millions and millions of people all at the same time and monitoring for *anything* to happen.

Thankfully we still have the other two shots, but this could impact the overall vaccine effort - depending on how long the pause is. It's also unfortunate that it's for the 1-shot vaccine as that could really change the trajectory of having [unknown, important] level of vaccine-based immunity.

And yes, it's likely going to fuel the vaccine hesitant and militant anti-vax positions, which isn't great - even if the CDC and FDA come back in two weeks and give it the green light.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

At least, unlike Europe, we've got a large supply of alternative vaccines so pausing J&J won't slow things down much.

But I worry about it fueling vaccine hesitancy.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by gilraen »

When they mentioned the AstraZeneca vaccine and the few cases of blood clots - mostly in women under 50 - my first thought was "is there a connection to birth control pills" (since they always carried a risk of blood clots). Now they are seeing it with J&J vaccine, and again - women between 18 and 48. At least the article actually mentions it this time.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, that's a good theory about the birth control pills - or maybe any type of birth control. Either way, the process is working as it should and no one is injecting bleach or putting flashlights in their rectum (at least, for COVID treatment).
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 am A pause is warranted, given the EUA. With 6 individuals out of ~8 million shots (in terms of incidence) experiencing the effect, this is being done out of an abundance of caution, not a sense of alarm.
This is the part that I struggle with. I get that the FDA isn't acting out of a sense of alarm, but that is 1,000% how I would expect it to be received by the public. The FDA can do all the messaging that it wants, but I really don't see how it can expect this to be taken by the public as anything other than "The FDA isn't sure that Johnson & Johnson is safe".

Kind of seems like it's likely to cause more people to die overall, as I would expect that "people who refuse vaccinations because of fears about vaccine safety" is likely to be considerably higher than the group of "people who get blood clots because of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine."
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by pr0ner »

Just look at how Alex Berenson is reacting to this:

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Well, until Nate Silver tells me what to believe, I'm just going to hold off on using what I know to draw any conclusions.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Isgrimnur »

You know what a serious side effect of the disease is? Death.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

I guess I don't get the logic of the suspension if (as seems likely) people are less likely to die taking the vaccine than if they don't take the vaccine. It makes sense to review the data and make updated recommendations to physicians in light of what they're seeing. But the cost/benefit analysis of suspending J&J vaccinations for everyone during that review seems way out of whack.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 am Well, until Nate Silver tells me what to believe, I'm just going to hold off on using what I know to draw any conclusions.
I don't care about Nate Silver, I'm just a little baffled by the suspension decision and I'm interested in the support for it.

FWIW this sounds like a normal step that the FDA takes with new drugs all the time. My impression is that it seems like the FDA isn't sufficiently factoring in the unusual media environment applicable to the COVID vaccines. But maybe they are and that's already factored into their thinking - I'm just curious what the thinking is on that, if so.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:50 am I guess I don't get the logic of the suspension if (as seems likely) people are less likely to die taking the vaccine than if they don't take the vaccine. ....But the cost/benefit analysis of suspending J&J vaccinations for everyone during that review seems way out of whack.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:00 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:50 am I guess I don't get the logic of the suspension if (as seems likely) people are less likely to die taking the vaccine than if they don't take the vaccine. ....But the cost/benefit analysis of suspending J&J vaccinations for everyone during that review seems way out of whack.
Welcome to the field of public health and the general argument for public health vaccinations over the last 40+ years. How can I help you with the transition to your new office on your first day here?
So it sounds like this decision doesn't totally make sense but it's kind of how these things work in general?
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Add me to the non-public-health-policy camp that doesn't quite get the pause. Certainly the reduced ability to vaccinate people will lead to more deaths and have a larger public health impact than the relatively rate potential side effects of blood clots, right? Any idea how many people were getting the J&J vaccine over the last few days that now may have to wait to get a vaccine? I'm guessing it's a quite a few, but haven't looked for those numbers.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:02 pm So it sounds like this decision doesn't totally make sense but it's kind of how these things work in general?
I think we're in uncharted territory because of the EUA. Add in the surveys and projections that are showing significant vaccine hesitancy in pockets of the U.S. and I'm guessing the last thing this administration wants is for this to snowball into a much larger issue than it is. Add in what's been happening with AZ and (I think) they're trying to do something to re-assure the public that everything is ok and are hoping that after this is said and done, that will be the upshot - the public feels better. However, the very act of hitting "pause" does make it seem like an alarm and I'm not sure the public understands nuance for these decisions (which I've mentioned before).

I honestly don't know what the right call is here, so taking a pause and verifying everything does make sense (to me). However, I know I'm not the general public and I don't think about these things or evaluate and then message them in the same way.

I've already heard from a few of my peers in Jerz that they're anticipating major issues in rollout now. From what I've been made to understand, the J&J vaccine was like the Riders of Rohan coming to the final battle and they've apparently just been waylaid.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Zaxxon »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pmI'm not sure the public understands nuance
Image
I've already heard from a few of my peers in Jerz that they're anticipating major issues in rollout now. From what I've been made to understand, the J&J vaccine was like the Riders of Rohan coming to the final battle and they've apparently just been waylaid.
This is the part I don't get. This seems (to my layman's understanding) like it's approximately equally likely to be noise or a very minor issue that's dwarfed by the good that the J&J vaccine does, and therefore the 'pause' is not being undertaken for health reasons but for PR reasons. (Since pausing the rollout will significantly increase the expected death count for the duration of the pause) And while I grok the rationale behind saying hey, we have this very minor set of data points and we want to check it out, the practical effect of the pause seems like it's going to be to cause hesitancy to a much greater extent than it resolves hesitancy.

If something had to be done, why not just keep administering but not to anyone 'at risk' of clotting while it's worked out? This seems like a major 'make the perfect the enemy of the good' thingamajigger to me.

But again, I have no idea what I'm talking about, other than a basic understanding of mathematics.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by LordMortis »

Without the ability to choose your vaccine, I don't see a suspension to investigate as a huge negative. But then I'm working on trying to convince my mother to vaccinate and her side of the family have major problem some sort or hyperactive blood clotting protein. So doubling back to further investigate vaccines that cause problems in some small fraction of a percentage of mainly women related to blood clotting in favor of vaccines without that sort of report helps me to try and move the needle. I'm selfish that way. Of course, I'd have preferred that specific side effect, starting with AZ not to have ever been seen/present.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Defiant »

Something that occurs to me is - do we even know that it's only six people that have gotten blood clots? It's not like they follow people closely the way they do for those in the trials. It may be that there are other people that have gotten blood clots and they haven't yet determined if they were vaccinated by J&J.

(Though I would still think if that's the case, it's still a very tiny percentage)
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

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Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:02 pm So it sounds like this decision doesn't totally make sense but it's kind of how these things work in general?
I think we're in uncharted territory because of the EUA. Add in the surveys and projections that are showing significant vaccine hesitancy in pockets of the U.S. and I'm guessing the last thing this administration wants is for this to snowball into a much larger issue than it is. Add in what's been happening with AZ and (I think) they're trying to do something to re-assure the public that everything is ok and are hoping that after this is said and done, that will be the upshot - the public feels better.
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I get that these are hard decisions that need to be made with imperfect information. But the idea that the public will feel better about any vaccinations after this than before this seems crazy. I certainly hope that this decision works out for the best, it's just not where my money would be on the outcome here.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by Smoove_B »

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:35 pm This is the part I don't get. This seems (to my layman's understanding) like it's approximately equally likely to be noise or a very minor issue that's dwarfed by the good that the J&J vaccine does, and therefore the 'pause' is not being undertaken for health reasons but for PR reasons.
Mostly. However, right now they're doing an inventory of the situation. They will be reaching out to vaccinators, health care providers and possibly the public to ask if there have been issues. While this was always happening, this will be a more aggressive review of the data to make sure nothing was missed (to Defiant's point above)
If something had to be done, why not just keep administering but not to anyone 'at risk' of clotting while it's worked out? This seems like a major 'make the perfect the enemy of the good' thingamajigger to me.
They might get there, but only after they can run the numbers. It always has to come back to verifying the study findings and looking at the actual data we have for 6.8+ million people that have received the J&J shot.
But again, I have no idea what I'm talking about, other than a basic understanding of mathematics.
I've learned over 20+ years that math doesn't endear people to public health. I could (and have) provided all kinds of cost/benefit evaluations and worked through thought exercises on what might happen over inaction. The CDC provides a helpful reminder to the public over vaccines,but I don't see if referenced often. I think people (generally) have a difficult time agreeing with the externalized benefits and instead focus on the possible personal negatives.

I really don't know what a realistic timeline is here, but unofficially I'm not expecting anything before next week. Jerz has already locked down the J*J shots and made sure they're not going out anymore. Maybe we'll know more before the weekend (in terms of what it all means), but I just don't know. Not really the news I was expecting to read on a random Tuesday in April, that's for sure.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pmI honestly don't know what the right call is here, so taking a pause and verifying everything does make sense (to me). However, I know I'm not the general public and I don't think about these things or evaluate and then message them in the same way.

I've already heard from a few of my peers in Jerz that they're anticipating major issues in rollout now. From what I've been made to understand, the J&J vaccine was like the Riders of Rohan coming to the final battle and they've apparently just been waylaid.
I just saw mention the pause might be only a few days. Hopefully the state can figure that out.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by pr0ner »

Trump issued a statement saying the J&J vaccine needs to be put back in use ASAP because Pfizer is secretly behind getting the FDA to pause J&J distribution.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:00 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pmI honestly don't know what the right call is here, so taking a pause and verifying everything does make sense (to me). However, I know I'm not the general public and I don't think about these things or evaluate and then message them in the same way.

I've already heard from a few of my peers in Jerz that they're anticipating major issues in rollout now. From what I've been made to understand, the J&J vaccine was like the Riders of Rohan coming to the final battle and they've apparently just been waylaid.
I just saw mention the pause might be only a few days. Hopefully the state can figure that out.
I think the main downside to the pause is just any pause of any length, because of the headlines it generates. So having done it, they should take the time they need to get it right. Worse case scenario is that they do the pause, then reinstate the vaccine, then have some other side effect that they missed. Pause twice and you're pretty much SOL, I would imagine.
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Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Post by El Guapo »

pr0ner wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:03 pm Trump issued a statement saying the J&J vaccine needs to be put back in use ASAP because Pfizer is secretly behind getting the FDA to pause J&J distribution.
Did he really? In a bizarre way that could be incredibly helpful. If Johnson and Johnson could become the "Republican / Trump" vaccine that the Deep State doesn't want you to be able to get, that could dramatically increase vaccination penetration in conservative areas.
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