The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:45 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:41 pm Maybe they're getting confused about the uncertainty over whether those vaccinated can still be carriers and spread the disease?

So easy to get messages mixed up isn't it? Reminds me of the childhood game telephone.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:46 pm

There appears to be a growing number of people who think getting vaccinated spreads the disease (or maybe I'm just becoming more aware of it). In the past week, 4 different people from different parts of my life have brought it up. I'm not sure how you fight that one.

It sounds like a variation of the influenza myth - that when you get vaccinated you're being given the influenza virus and it will make you sick with the goal of then protecting you. It's likely broadly related to not fully understanding how vaccines work and how they "trick' the immune system into responding to a disease.

The CDC does have a page with with information, but in my experience in talking with people about these things even after having a discussion, they remain unconvinced. I have a friend that is adamantly against vaccines (recently learned). Not that they're toxic or evil but that they're pointless - all the immunity you need can be acquired naturally.

While that's technically true, I suspect these views stem from never having to live through polio or know people that have issues related to vaccine-preventable diseases - because we've largely controlled them in the U.S. for 40+ years now. I am not aware of an effective way to convince someone that getting the disease and becoming immune is one path, but getting a vaccine to gain the benefits of exposure with much lower risk is better.

And that doesn't even get into the benefits you're providing to others by vaccinating.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:50 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:22 am It's funny I keep hearing about his abuse of EO (which might very well be a thing.

All I hear are attacks on the number. If they had anything on the substance, one would assume that the message would be different.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:54 pm

Not sure if this is easing us into what the official CDC recommendations will be, but this article has a good overview:

Many elderly Americans have said they plan to see their children and grandchildren post-vaccination. If all adults in a family are vaccinated, such a gathering becomes "fairly low risk," according to Dr. Céline Gounder, an infectious-disease physician at New York University. That's because coronavirus infections are generally mild or asymptomatic in children.

"What concerns me is the people who are not yet vaccinated," Gounder told Insider. "For example, you have three generations in a family: vaccinated grandparents, but not children or adults. That could still be a real problem."

Kass also said it's probably safe for elderly, vaccinated people to see their unvaccinated grandkids.

"My parents are vaccinated, which means that my kids can go visit my parents with a sense of relief that we haven't had before," Kass said.

Kids under 16 likely won't be eligible to receive a shot until at least the fall or winter, or perhaps even early 2022.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:12 pm

Just found out a friend of mine lost her 22 year old daughter to Covid. People don't understand that it's a horrible way to die, not to mention the disabling effects if you do live!!!! No way would I turn down the opportunity to get that vaccine and all the rest of them. I HATE being sick, hate it. I feel like my life is shortened if I can't do anything and have to be in bed or worse in a hospital. I'm working on my weight, I do my 150 minutes of exercise a week, I've greatly improved my diet, just to avoid being sick.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:05 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:50 pm
LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:22 am It's funny I keep hearing about his abuse of EO (which might very well be a thing.
All I hear are attacks on the number. If they had anything on the substance, one would assume that the message would be different.

The first thing that comes to mind for me is to wonder how many of those executive orders are simply cancelling Trump's executive orders. I've been assuming that the Democrats were tracking Trump's EOs as they were issued and were prepared to move to nullify what they deemed necessary right from day one, so it seems natural that their would be an initial flurry of EO activity aimed at returning the government to normality as soon as possible.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:19 pm

https://www.federalregister.gov/preside ... ive-orders

34 EOs. When I reviewed earlier the opening Salvo was lots of different EOs to jump on fighting COVID.

I now suspect Twitter dude, MD because he uses the term Executive Actions in his bumper sticker to inflate numbers in the graphic when he is quoting Biden on EOs. That's a former frequent R&P poster level of game playing that earns disdain.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:25 pm

Twitter dude, MD is my US Rep.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:12 pm

22 of those were reversals of Trump's policies. So the majority.

And I really couldn't care less what the GOP thinks of Biden's EOs or what they deem his lack of unity. Typical Republican playbook. Break the rules all you want while you're in power, but cry foul and complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:37 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:12 pm 22 of those were reversals of Trump's policies. So the majority.

And I really couldn't care less what the GOP thinks of Biden's EOs or what they deem his lack of unity. Typical Republican playbook. Break the rules all you want while you're in power, but cry foul and complain when the shoe is on the other foot.

Just like the Democrats cry foul and complain when Repubs do it.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:59 pm

Some good news for people in TX - not every one is nuts:

As Texas lifts most of its pandemic measures, allowing a majority of businesses to reopen at full capacity next week, several major firms will still require employees to wear masks at work, including Target and Macy's.

Workers at General Motors, Toyota Motor, Target, and Macy’s in the Lone Star State will maintain face-covering protocols at work, the companies announced Tuesday, according to Reuters.

...

Target said customers and staff will still be required to wear masks while inside the store, according to a company spokesman.

Department store Macy’s said its mask policy requiring customers and employees to wear face covers would not change.

I'm sure there won't be irate customers at all.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:03 pm

stimpy wrote:Just like the Democrats cry foul and complain when Repubs do it.

Given that they're not actively trying to destroy American democracy, I'll give them a pass.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:05 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:59 pm I'm sure there won't be irate customers at all.

Hopefully they don't take to murdering employees and security guards like they idiots have been known to do one stupid state I know.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:43 pm

Maybe they met in the middle at Jose Tejas and had a margarita while they worked out the agreement. The 2 HQs are 30 minutes from each other.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:36 pm

Corporations cooperating is the opposite of competition and thus objectively Socialism.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:35 pm

I keep seeing "enough vaccines by the end of May." That's great, now can we get thousands of local regions coordinated enough to actually use them, or are they just going to sit in storage?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:17 am

@SmooveB. I'm at the Meadowlands megasite and all.i can say is it is chaos. I'd explain in detail but all I can say is that I had an 8 AM appointment. It is 815, I am standing in a crowded social undistant mess as people argue over who has appointments or doesn't outside the venue. They are suddenly enforcing the rules on appointments differently than last time so tons are people are arguing with them - this impacted my wife but I threw her the keys and just rolled my eyes. Absolute chaos.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:00 am

My understanding for some of the megasites is that a significant number of people have been hanging out there to try and get appointments when there are no-shows and it's become a real problem. I'm not aware of changes in how they're dealing with appointments, but given the size of operations at the Meadowlands, I'd imagine there's potential for a lot of people there looking for no-show slots, people there really early and people there on time. I have repeatedly heard the megasites in our area are chaos. I'm visiting my county site this afternoon and have heard nothing but good things, so I can at least offer that comparison.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:15 am

Wow, the TX governor sure is concerned about reckless behavior. If only there was something he could do to control the spread of COVID.

The Biden Administration is recklessly releasing hundreds of illegal immigrants who have COVID into Texas communities.

The Biden Admin. must IMMEDIATELY end this callous act that exposes Texans & Americans to COVID.

Also, your governor is a racist.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:51 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:00 am My understanding for some of the megasites is that a significant number of people have been hanging out there to try and get appointments when there are no-shows and it's become a real problem. I'm not aware of changes in how they're dealing with appointments, but given the size of operations at the Meadowlands, I'd imagine there's potential for a lot of people there looking for no-show slots, people there really early and people there on time. I have repeatedly heard the megasites in our area are chaos. I'm visiting my county site this afternoon and have heard nothing but good things, so I can at least offer that comparison.

Now that I'm not in the middle of a throng I'll offer some detail. When we went to the first shot, they gave my wife and I different 2nd shot appointment times. She wandered over and said her time was 2:40 PM. The lady had just assigned me 8 AM. My wife was asked for a time and she naturally chose the time we were seated (to keep us in sync). I wasn't offered a time I was told a time. I asked if we could sync it since we're just wrapping up - no it is done but it doesn't matter. "She can come at the same time as you." Ok, fine then.

Cut forward to today, the place is bedlam. We have the people clamoring to do day of registration. For actual appointments, they are only allowing the appointment time up to the gate and are strictly checking. So they turned away my wife. This was happening to a lot of folks who had come to their 1st shot together. So they needed a common sense rule to schedule 2nd appointments to keep people in sync. Book the time the people are sitting 21 days from now. Seems simple. Oy. But this is causing a lot of drama. Now we live about an hour away so its inconvenient but not the end of the world.

However, by the time the line actually got moving past the initial pile up it was about 8:20 so they were telling people that 8:20 and before could be in this mess of a line. They then were trying to corral it because it wasn't allowed to go into the parking lot and could only wrap a certain way, etc. My wife watched and said there were 10 soldiers moving the line. It is a big parking lot. Additionally they are mixing in the day of registration with the appointments and there isn't enough room. Why they had parking in the first row only 10 feet from where the queue begins? Why is the entrance to the queue literally into the parking lot where it isn't allowed to be? I don't have answers to the obvious questions. Did they not expect crowds? It seemed logical to block off the first row of the *huge parking lot* to make room for the appropriate size queue. This isn't rocket science.

Then I get inside and they don't know how to manage traffic inside. There was a woman running around telling soldiers to move people to the right, 1st shots here, 2nd shots there, change this lane, etc. Bottom line I had an 8 AM - opening appointment and was toward the front of the mess and my butt didn't hit plastic until 8:45. Partly because they run through the same backed up registration as the 1st time and partly because they didn't know how to route us. So the whole operation is 45 minutes behind. Is this just a bad day? I don't know but it gets worse. She sticks me and I start bleeding like crazy. She said this happens with some of the guys and she is having trouble managing the bleeding. She apologizes because she is trying to do her work one handed. Why? She says they've had a glove shortage there and they are trying to use one glove at a time.

In the end, I definitely didn't get the feel this is a well-oiled machine. It felt like the 1st day of an operation and not the 40th or so day. They don't know how to manage the crowds still, it was just soldiers with a megaphone left to their own devices, they haven't prepared the queues in a safe or logical way - circuses do a better job of this, there is no social distancing in those lines, etc. I'm glad it isn't being reported since it'd discourage people but this process is just an utter mess.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:14 am

Jesus that's grim. It sounds like what they really need it a dramatic increase in vaccines - that'll solve the problem. I am guessing the site you visited is one of the busiest, if not the single busiest site in NJ. Now that they're juggling new + second vaccines, plus increased volume overall I'm not surprised to hear it's total chaos. They better figure out things soon as they'll absolutely be the limiting factor in another month, not the supply.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:25 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:14 am Jesus that's grim. It sounds like what they really need it a dramatic increase in vaccines - that'll solve the problem. I am guessing the site you visited is one of the busiest, if not the single busiest site in NJ. Now that they're juggling new + second vaccines, plus increased volume overall I'm not surprised to hear it's total chaos. They better figure out things soon as they'll absolutely be the limiting factor in another month, not the supply.

Yeah - the Meadowlands megasite being crazy busy makes sense. Though some of this is clear lack of process. Consultant brain was like...why do they not have a consistent process to schedule follow ups? They should have had a simple process to schedule follow up appointments.
Why does the 2nd shot go through the same registration as 1st shots? The 2nd shot registration is quicker but they had to station people to direct people off the lines into the right spots to manage the overlap.

At the entrance, they have a separate line for day of registration after the 'merged queue'. The problem is that at some point they changed the *inside of the house* but decided not to redesign the front door so it is crowded and as I said makes no sense considering how parking is being allowed. They are still blocking doors with desks for no discernible reason. I actually thought there was a reasonable chance they might be in violation of the fire code because of the blocked doors. That aside, it is clearly just something happening instead of something being managed and improved.

That said I did see one or two improvements since 3 weeks ago. The first time I went the shots were given at tables in what was essentially an open space. They've now put up privacy partitions to create mini open suites of 2 vaccine stations though they are situated so you are face to face with the person across from you getting their shot. Lol. They also have someone with a paddle whose job is to keep the line moving to open slots versus the first time where it was a vaccine specialist waving their arms like crazy. This time I got there and they were preparing the shot instead of chasing me down. That said they are fixing the smoothest part of their operation and not addressing the bottleneck I saw last time that still remains (queue management and the registration).

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:22 pm

There needs to be criminal investigations.

“Since DeSantis started using the state’s vaccine initiative to steer special pop-up vaccinations to select communities, his political committee has raised $2.7 million in the month of February alone, more than any other month since he first ran for governor in 2018”

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:30 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:22 pm There needs to be criminal investigations.

“Since DeSantis started using the state’s vaccine initiative to steer special pop-up vaccinations to select communities, his political committee has raised $2.7 million in the month of February alone, more than any other month since he first ran for governor in 2018”

This is the guy being bandied about as Trump's successor...well let's be honest... it won't last once Trump hears it and undermines him. Still this is the usual grift that the morally bankrupt right accepts.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:12 pm

Organized religion strikes again.

Some US bishops discourage Catholics from getting Johnson & Johnson vaccine if others are available

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:30 pm

I can't wait for the debate between malchior and Smoove on whether NJ's vaccination efforts have been "horrific" or "abysmal".

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:34 pm

News says new infections are down 3% or so. But then on the flip side testing is down 30+%. So infections could be a LOT higher.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:53 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:30 pm I can't wait for the debate between malchior and Smoove on whether NJ's vaccination efforts have been "horrific" or "abysmal".

I have a facebook group and the crap people are doing to try and get appointments is insane. You thought buying a PS5 was hard.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:59 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:15 am Wow, the TX governor sure is concerned about reckless behavior. If only there was something he could do to control the spread of COVID.

The Biden Administration is recklessly releasing hundreds of illegal immigrants who have COVID into Texas communities.

The Biden Admin. must IMMEDIATELY end this callous act that exposes Texans & Americans to COVID.
Also, your governor is a racist.

Don't worry, the Governor's Mansion has maintained suspension of tours because of COVID risk so he'll be OK.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:02 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:53 pm
El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:30 pm I can't wait for the debate between malchior and Smoove on whether NJ's vaccination efforts have been "horrific" or "abysmal".
I have a facebook group and the crap people are doing to try and get appointments is insane. You thought buying a PS5 was hard.

That is part of the insanity. People can't get through online so they've heard (accurately based on what I saw today) that going in person boosts your chances significantly. The woman in front of me is a teacher's aid and said she is up at 4 or 5 everyday helping the older teachers get appointments. They are focused on CVS because the megasites are impossible. She asked me to hold her spot while she jumped out to try to register a teacher in person.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:10 pm

I'll probably be the last person in the state to get a shot, because I just can not deal with fighting people to get this. The whole last year has just been fighting with people to get anything.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:15 pm

I think while it sounds pretty terrible the opposite would truly be awful, if they had the vaccines and no one wanted them.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:19 pm

Lorini wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:15 pm I think while it sounds pretty terrible the opposite would truly be awful, if they had the vaccines and no one wanted them.

It remains to be seen if enough do to matter.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:20 pm

Somebody just needs to figure out how to flip vaccines on Ebay and shit will get real.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:10 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:30 pm I can't wait for the debate between malchior and Smoove on whether NJ's vaccination efforts have been "horrific" or "abysmal".

I just received my first shot and the entire process from start to finish was *textbook* perfect. They did it exactly the way I was trained and it couldn't have been any better. Once again, where you live in NJ dictates the service you receive. My appointment was 12:35pm; I was back on the road at 1:05pm - all done via drive through.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:16 pm

We've averaged over 2 million doses a day for the last week. At this rate, we'll be at ~75% by September.

(And I would hope the doses per day continues to rise)

Also, we're towards the top of the countries in terms of giving doses per capita, though UK and especially UAE and Israel are way ahead of us (I refuse to believe that Seychelles and Maldives - who are also ahead - are real countries - I've never heard of them). And it will take the world about 5 years to vaccinate 75% of the worlds population.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:19 pm

my parents reported that their county vax site (Scott County, MN) was well organized and efficient - but apparently not very many people knew about it, as the queue kinda just ... ended, and the whole operation was wrapping up around 2pm that day. they said they only found out from a friend of a friend who clued them into it.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:31 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:15 am Wow, the TX governor sure is concerned about reckless behavior. If only there was something he could do to control the spread of COVID.

The Biden Administration is recklessly releasing hundreds of illegal immigrants who have COVID into Texas communities.

The Biden Admin. must IMMEDIATELY end this callous act that exposes Texans & Americans to COVID.
Also, your governor is a racist.

Obviously setting up Biden and immigrants for the deaths to come...

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:43 pm

All I know is that I could never live in a red state. They finally have things under control and we're rolling out the vaccines and he just says fuck it we can't wait. I'm sure it will be fine though, because everything I've seen the people that don't give a crap seem to be the ones that are fine.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:27 pm

I thought Texans were exposing Texans to covid?