The Viral Economy

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malchior
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:16 pm Guy from "Omega Family" is on CNBC trying to make the case that the wealthy investor has been getting screwed since 2008. This won't end well for him.
This segment is so painful to watch. One of the panelists was literally face palming at one point while he was reiterating the same points again.
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LordMortis
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Re: The Viral Economy

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I didn't get to see/hear panelists. It was just him when I could hear him the background and I was :shock: on what I was hearing so I had to stop and pay attention for a few minutes. From the two minutes or less I heard from him, I can only imagine the mass of WSB calling for Robinhood's head just took pause to find out what they can about him.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Analyst from Credit Suisse says this going away. In a month this will be gone. Did he not watch TSLA this last year? Did he not see the rise of Robin Hood? Free Trades? SPACs?

I am not a savvy investor but I don't hear any more hot takes than I do from Credit Suisse? Do people actually trust them and follow their guidance? They came under microscope in August and I have not read one reliable or reasonable thing from them since.

http://octopusoverlords.com/forum/viewt ... 3#p2752863
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Re: The Viral Economy

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I thought Ted Cruz left Twitter and facebook for Parler



Edit link is the not post I linked so
AOC wrote:I am happy to work with Republicans on this issue where there’s common ground, but you almost had me murdered 3 weeks ago so you can sit this one out.

Happy to work w/ almost any other GOP that aren’t trying to get me killed.

In the meantime if you want to help, you can resign.
Ted Cruz wrote:Fully agree.
Down pointing backhand index
twitter.com/aoc/status/135…
AOC wrote:This is unacceptable.

We now need to know more about @RobinhoodApp’s decision to block retail investors from purchasing stock while hedge funds are freely able to trade the stock as they see fit.

As a member of the Financial Services Cmte, I’d support a hearing if necessary. twitter.com/motherboard/st…
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malchior
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Re: The Viral Economy

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LordMortis wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:10 pm Analyst from Credit Suisse says this going away. In a month this will be gone.
It is part wishful thinking and part reality that the WSB guys didn't have the heft to move the markets until the big players bought into their theory.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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LordMortis wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:10 pm Analyst from Credit Suisse says this going away. In a month this will be gone. Did he not watch TSLA this last year? Did he not see the rise of Robin Hood? Free Trades? SPACs?

I am not a savvy investor but I don't hear any more hot takes than I do from Credit Suisse? Do people actually trust them and follow their guidance? They came under microscope in August and I have not read one reliable or reasonable thing from them since.

http://octopusoverlords.com/forum/viewt ... 3#p2752863
I am a pretty big believer in their stock reports. At one point, they were the most accurate in terms of stated price targets for stocks, of all the major houses - but I have not researched this recently to see if it still holds true. It takes quite a bit of work and going to multiple different accounts and websites (although in theory some out there like TipRanks tries to do this work for you, now).
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Freyland »

I'm really really trying, and while small isolated bits make sense, I generally don't understand what's happening in this conversation.

Signed,
Ignorant About the Market
Sims 3 and signature unclear.
malchior
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Freyland wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:58 pm I'm really really trying, and while small isolated bits make sense, I generally don't understand what's happening in this conversation.

Signed,
Ignorant About the Market
Regular people tried to make money the way wealth does by manipulating the market. Other wealthy people saw the strategy...said oh shit...there is something there and made a ton of money because regular folks were dumping their money in the pot recklessly. Once the juice was all squeezed out, wealth responded by stepping on their throats in a fairly transparent way that strongly indicates that the whole system is rigged.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Incoming populist tax scheme!

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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Defiant »

So let me start by saying that I'm far from knowledgeable about the stock market and I haven't read much on what actually happened. Now that my ignorance on this topic is clear, let me put in my two cents:

Didn't this cost the people that tried to drive up the price (to hurt those trying to short it), unless they got out early, since they'll be left with an overinflated stock? (and, given the whole stock app stuff, it sounds like it hurt others too).

Also, this strikes me like mob justice - I don't think manipulating stock market prices to make someone lose money is much better than manipulating it to make money. Just because it was driven by social media doesn't make it better.

(Also, I have to wonder if some people manipulated social media to do this in order to make money off of it).
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Defiant wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:09 am So let me start by saying that I'm far from knowledgeable about the stock market and I haven't read much on what actually happened. Now that my ignorance on this topic is clear, let me put in my two cents:

Didn't this cost the people that tried to drive up the price (to hurt those trying to short it), unless they got out early, since they'll be left with an overinflated stock? (and, given the whole stock app stuff, it sounds like it hurt others too).

Also, this strikes me like mob justice - I don't think manipulating stock market prices to make someone lose money is much better than manipulating it to make money. Just because it was driven by social media doesn't make it better.

(Also, I have to wonder if some people manipulated social media to do this in order to make money off of it).
100% accurate.

Cheering for this is like cheering for anarchy. Real people are going to get hurt. Again.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
malchior
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:15 am
Defiant wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:09 am So let me start by saying that I'm far from knowledgeable about the stock market and I haven't read much on what actually happened. Now that my ignorance on this topic is clear, let me put in my two cents:

Didn't this cost the people that tried to drive up the price (to hurt those trying to short it), unless they got out early, since they'll be left with an overinflated stock? (and, given the whole stock app stuff, it sounds like it hurt others too).

Also, this strikes me like mob justice - I don't think manipulating stock market prices to make someone lose money is much better than manipulating it to make money. Just because it was driven by social media doesn't make it better.

(Also, I have to wonder if some people manipulated social media to do this in order to make money off of it).
100% accurate.

Cheering for this is like cheering for anarchy. Real people are going to get hurt. Again.
I agree but at the same time it is far more complicated. The anarchy here springs from the same fountain that the anarchy we saw on the streets in the summer comes from. It has roots in real corruption in these markets and feed the wealth inequality problem that is driving this behavior.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:36 amI agree but at the same time it is far more complicated. The anarchy here springs from the same fountain that the anarchy we saw on the streets in the summer comes from. It has roots in real corruption in these markets and feed the wealth inequality problem that is driving this behavior.
Do you really believe that?

These are guys trying to make a quick dollar and damn who it hurts. Sure, they can justify it saying they're doing the same things other folks are and it's a political statement, but let's not pretend this isn't pure unmitigated greed.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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LordMortis
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:45 am
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:36 amI agree but at the same time it is far more complicated. The anarchy here springs from the same fountain that the anarchy we saw on the streets in the summer comes from. It has roots in real corruption in these markets and feed the wealth inequality problem that is driving this behavior.
Do you really believe that?

These are guys trying to make a quick dollar and damn who it hurts. Sure, they can justify it saying they're doing the same things other folks are and it's a political statement, but let's not pretend this isn't pure unmitigated greed.
Depends on which these guys you are talking about. There are a lot forces at play here. But oh yeah there are people trying to make a quick dollar and damned who it hurts to paraphrase the media of the last four years... "on both sides".

The mob justice thing is the fascinating part. This is mob justice coming to a head over a decade of inaction that is now front and center after three days of watching the mob while ignoring the long standing conditions that have triggered them.

I wouldn't touch it with YOLO money and don't have gambling money to get near it but I'm being affected by it just the same. And I'm still fascinated by it, and by all of the forces at play trying to profit and trying to control. Both in terms of cash in in terms of clout.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:45 amThese are guys trying to make a quick dollar and damn who it hurts.
The hedge fund managers who bet on companies to fail and pick over their corpses, or the people trying to stand on each other to take a stab at billionaires? Maybe both?
LordMortis wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:53 amThe mob justice thing is the fascinating part. This is mob justice coming to a head over a decade of inaction that is now front and center after three days of watching the mob while ignoring the long standing conditions that have triggered them.
I think a lot of people are joining this cause, and not just to make a buck. Many people see the billion-dollar companies and billionaires as part of the problem in society right now and are willing to take a personal hit in order to be a part of striking back at something they've never been able to even dream of striking at before.

When rioters take to the streets to protest, they know there's a risk they'll be arrested or hurt. I see this as a financial riot.
Black Lives Matter

2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:45 am
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:36 amI agree but at the same time it is far more complicated. The anarchy here springs from the same fountain that the anarchy we saw on the streets in the summer comes from. It has roots in real corruption in these markets and feed the wealth inequality problem that is driving this behavior.
Do you really believe that?

These are guys trying to make a quick dollar and damn who it hurts. Sure, they can justify it saying they're doing the same things other folks are and it's a political statement, but let's not pretend this isn't pure unmitigated greed.
Everyone is "greedy". Anyway, if you don't see the wealthy inequality angle then you aren't actually listening to what some of these folks are saying. Are there people just grifting in there. Totally. Are there people making huge piles of money and then donating it to causes publicly. Yep. Are there people talking about sticking it to the man. Yep. It's a mob in a sense but it isn't mindless.

And I truly believe a lot of this anarchy is inequality driven. A lot of these kids or young adults saw their own lives or parents lives negatively impacted by 2008, saw the wealthy get away with everything, saw them bailed out, and then listened to those same people talk down to them about how they were living their lives. They are angry. And that is a whole lot of populist fury ready to channeled again. It is no mystery why the @aoc and Trumps are on the same side of this issue. They see this clearly as well.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:38 pm And I truly believe a lot of this anarchy is inequality driven. A lot of these kids or young adults saw their own lives or parents lives negatively impacted by 2008, saw the wealthy get away with everything, saw them bailed out, and then listened to those same people talk down to them about how they were living their lives. They are angry. And that is a whole lot of populist fury ready to channeled again. It is no mystery why the @aoc and Trumps are on the same side of this issue. They see this clearly as well.
From where I sit this is what I see.

It is not inconsistent with
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:15 am Real people are going to get hurt. Again.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Paingod wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:14 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:45 amThese are guys trying to make a quick dollar and damn who it hurts.
The hedge fund managers who bet on companies to fail and pick over their corpses, or the people trying to stand on each other to take a stab at billionaires? Maybe both?
That's not how it works.

I'm ignoring the extremes here. Clearly there are ways to manipulate stock prices that can have an impact on the companies themselves. This is super rare though. I'm not even sure it's really a thing outside of hostile takeovers.

Betting on something to fail is an subjective statement as to the truth worth of something. Selling shares short doesn't affect the underlying business at all. People don't like it because they don't want to a see a contrarian opinion to everything goes up.

No, who is going to get hurt are the people trying to coat tail. Look at it like the Q-Anon folks. There are clearly mentally-ill people who are going to wind up in prison because Watkins wanted to make a buck. There's people going to bet their life savings on Gamestop or whatever's next. Stickin' it to the hedge fund managers isn't a good reason.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: The Viral Economy

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malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:38 pm And I truly believe a lot of this anarchy is inequality driven. A lot of these kids or young adults saw their own lives or parents lives negatively impacted by 2008, saw the wealthy get away with everything, saw them bailed out, and then listened to those same people talk down to them about how they were living their lives. They are angry. And that is a whole lot of populist fury ready to channeled again. It is no mystery why the @aoc and Trumps are on the same side of this issue. They see this clearly as well.
Sure. Just like tulips, the dot com bubble, and everything else where people did stupid stock market things... I'm looking at you TSLA.

Don't assign virtue to the action. I understand the folks on the outside looking in who say screw TD Ameritrade or short hedge funds or anyone else. The carnage is a lot of schadenfreude. But the actors are not noble.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:51 pm There's people going to bet their life savings on Gamestop or whatever's next. Stickin' it to the hedge fund managers isn't a good reason.
The question (for me) remains why do "we" suddenly care about their financial health only after they effect change with the presumed effective short squeeze, first a curiosity with Tesla but now a force. It is my prognostication, that this question, after a decade of festering controls over infusing money in to the financial systems, is going to continue to move the mob. Where? I have no idea. This isn't first nor the second motivated mob in the last year organized by social media into action at a national scale. We'll see how they are treated and for how long.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:54 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:38 pm And I truly believe a lot of this anarchy is inequality driven. A lot of these kids or young adults saw their own lives or parents lives negatively impacted by 2008, saw the wealthy get away with everything, saw them bailed out, and then listened to those same people talk down to them about how they were living their lives. They are angry. And that is a whole lot of populist fury ready to channeled again. It is no mystery why the @aoc and Trumps are on the same side of this issue. They see this clearly as well.
Sure. Just like tulips, the dot com bubble, and everything else where people did stupid stock market things... I'm looking at you TSLA.

Don't assign virtue to the action. I understand the folks on the outside looking in who say screw TD Ameritrade or short hedge funds or anyone else. The carnage is a lot of schadenfreude. But the actors are not noble.
Who is assigning nobility to them? You asked if I believed if wealth inequality drove it. And the above is a piece of why I see it as a big driver of this behavior. You are IMO oversimplifying the outcomes here. Are there similarities to other weird stock market things. Yes. Easy money, frothy markets, but those are conditions that enabled this particular event to happen. The underlying reason why isn't always the same when markets fail.
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Defiant wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:09 am (Also, I have to wonder if some people manipulated social media to do this in order to make money off of it).
A YouTube streamer who helped drive a surge in the shares of GameStop is a 34-year-old financial advisor from Massachusetts and until recently worked for insurance giant MassMutual, public records and social media posts show.
After online brokerages restricted trading in GME on Thursday, Gill posted that he had lost $14.8 million that day alone, but was still up $33 million overall.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/29/famed-g ... visor.html

:ninja:
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Re: The Viral Economy

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malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:06 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:54 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:38 pm And I truly believe a lot of this anarchy is inequality driven. A lot of these kids or young adults saw their own lives or parents lives negatively impacted by 2008, saw the wealthy get away with everything, saw them bailed out, and then listened to those same people talk down to them about how they were living their lives. They are angry. And that is a whole lot of populist fury ready to channeled again. It is no mystery why the @aoc and Trumps are on the same side of this issue. They see this clearly as well.
Sure. Just like tulips, the dot com bubble, and everything else where people did stupid stock market things... I'm looking at you TSLA.

Don't assign virtue to the action. I understand the folks on the outside looking in who say screw TD Ameritrade or short hedge funds or anyone else. The carnage is a lot of schadenfreude. But the actors are not noble.
Who is assigning nobility to them? You asked if I believed if wealth inequality drove it. And the above is a piece of why I see it as a big driver of this behavior. You are IMO oversimplifying the outcomes here. Are there similarities to other weird stock market things. Yes. Easy money, frothy markets, but those are conditions that enabled this particular event to happen. The underlying reason why isn't always the same when markets fail.
It sounded like you were, but if that's not the case, we are just weighing motivation differently.

I think it's far more greed related.

Anecdotes!

Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Paingod wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:14 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:45 amThese are guys trying to make a quick dollar and damn who it hurts.
The hedge fund managers who bet on companies to fail and pick over their corpses, or the people trying to stand on each other to take a stab at billionaires? Maybe both?
LordMortis wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:53 amThe mob justice thing is the fascinating part. This is mob justice coming to a head over a decade of inaction that is now front and center after three days of watching the mob while ignoring the long standing conditions that have triggered them.
I think a lot of people are joining this cause, and not just to make a buck. Many people see the billion-dollar companies and billionaires as part of the problem in society right now and are willing to take a personal hit in order to be a part of striking back at something they've never been able to even dream of striking at before.

When rioters take to the streets to protest, they know there's a risk they'll be arrested or hurt. I see this as a financial riot.
What's the cause? This is nothing more than "Vote For the Worst" on American Idol. It's trolling in its basest form with a huge helping of stupid greed on top.

If you believe the people who were the driving factor behind the Gamestop short squeeze were motivated by some egalitarian cause, I've got a bridge to sell you. The operating principle here is really, really old: There's always a bigger fool out there.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Smoove_B »

My takeaway from the entire event isn't about the motivations or even how it was done. Instead, it's about how no one cared about any of it until rich people suddenly potentially lost an incomprehensible amount of money.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: The Viral Economy

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noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:27 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:06 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:54 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:38 pm And I truly believe a lot of this anarchy is inequality driven. A lot of these kids or young adults saw their own lives or parents lives negatively impacted by 2008, saw the wealthy get away with everything, saw them bailed out, and then listened to those same people talk down to them about how they were living their lives. They are angry. And that is a whole lot of populist fury ready to channeled again. It is no mystery why the @aoc and Trumps are on the same side of this issue. They see this clearly as well.
Sure. Just like tulips, the dot com bubble, and everything else where people did stupid stock market things... I'm looking at you TSLA.

Don't assign virtue to the action. I understand the folks on the outside looking in who say screw TD Ameritrade or short hedge funds or anyone else. The carnage is a lot of schadenfreude. But the actors are not noble.
Who is assigning nobility to them? You asked if I believed if wealth inequality drove it. And the above is a piece of why I see it as a big driver of this behavior. You are IMO oversimplifying the outcomes here. Are there similarities to other weird stock market things. Yes. Easy money, frothy markets, but those are conditions that enabled this particular event to happen. The underlying reason why isn't always the same when markets fail.
It sounded like you were, but if that's not the case, we are just weighing motivation differently.

I think it's far more greed related.

Anecdotes!

Interesting article (thanks for the link), but I couldn't get through it before stumbling at this description of short selling:
Many celebrated WallStreetBets' war on GameStop short-sellers as a populist campaign against hedge-fund raiders looking to profit off the destruction of a well-known retail brand like GameStop. But unlike many other similar online communities, there is also a clear financial goal for the people in it.
This is just so much bullshit. There's nothing wrong with short selling. It's not vultures picking over the bones of sad, dying companies. Short sellers are not "hedge-fund raiders" (whatever the fuck that means). Institutional short selling is actually a stabilizing force, or should be when not manipulated by a bunch of greedy redditors and a legion of idiots who really have no business trading but are now empowered to do so by the Robinhoods of the world.

So much garbage. I hate populism. Maybe I just hate people. :evil:
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Re: The Viral Economy

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Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:51 pm My takeaway from the entire event isn't about the motivations or even how it was done. Instead, it's about how no one cared about any of it until rich people suddenly potentially lost an incomprehensible amount of money.
I think that's fair, but there's also the angle that people took notice because a stupid, stupid company that appears destined to fail all of a sudden was seeing its stock soar through the stratosphere. That tends to raise some eyebrows, even absent the staggering financial losses incurred by institutional investors in connection with the short squeeze.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:05 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:51 pm My takeaway from the entire event isn't about the motivations or even how it was done. Instead, it's about how no one cared about any of it until rich people suddenly potentially lost an incomprehensible amount of money.
I think that's fair, but there's also the angle that people took notice because a stupid, stupid company that appears destined to fail all of a sudden was seeing its stock soar through the stratosphere. That tends to raise some eyebrows, even absent the staggering financial losses incurred by institutional investors in connection with the short squeeze.
Except it has been happening to some extent for months in other stocks but the outrage began when hedges started losing money. The media didn't give a shit about the little guy until the big guy got punched in the nose.
noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:27 pmIt sounded like you were, but if that's not the case, we are just weighing motivation differently.

I think it's far more greed related.

Anecdotes!

First off I still don't understand how you took that for nobility or approval. It was purely my view on what happened based on the end-to-end sequence. IMO ascribing this to greed is like seeing the lemmings run off a cliff and blaming it on fear. Yeah that was the emotion but that wasn't what started them on their run. I don't have the timeline convenient but AFAIK Robinhood and WSB saw the biggest pile in after the initial attack.

Edit: To be clearer, blaming it entirely on greed is again IMO looking at the last link in the sequence and making a conclusion on it. It ignores that there was a legitimate trading idea at the beginning of this sequence. That some people used it for different purposes is the result of the chaos that was unleashed.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LordMortis »

Maybe it's a play on nostalgia. You buy a Stock for $380, play it for a week and then sell it back $15 a week later.
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:16 pm Except it has been happening to some extent for months in other stocks but the outrage began when hedges started losing money. The media didn't give a shit about the little guy until the big guy got punched in the nose.
No idea when it started, but people took notice nearly a year ago with TSLA. I can only assume it became a thing when TSLA kept going after the short squeeze. Probably when it broke the $800 mark pre split and was completely decoupled from its earnings and earnings potential and growth and predictive models. And then Musk released more stock and the price promptly sky rocketed with "We like Tesla!"

I've been watching stupid raises for several months, but only seen it turned back on the hedge shorts when LB started pointing weirdness concurrent with trying to understand why certain companies dominated the chrions on CNBC. Looking at PLUG and FUBO, this suggests, it was the 5th of this month and then come to a head this week.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Defiant »

LordMortis wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:17 pm Maybe it's a play on nostalgia. You buy a Stock for $380, play it for a week and then sell it back $15 a week later.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by noxiousdog »

malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:16 pmExcept it has been happening to some extent for months in other stocks but the outrage began when hedges started losing money. The media didn't give a shit about the little guy until the big guy got punched in the nose.
I don't think that's true. I think this one in particular is so egregious that the mainstream noticed. It was a pretty big deal when Elon Musk did his 420 tweet.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

LordMortis wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:17 pm Maybe it's a play on nostalgia. You buy a Stock for $380, play it for a week and then sell it back $15 a week later.
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:16 pm Except it has been happening to some extent for months in other stocks but the outrage began when hedges started losing money. The media didn't give a shit about the little guy until the big guy got punched in the nose.
No idea when it started, but people took notice nearly a year ago with TSLA. I can only assume it became a thing when TSLA kept going after the short squeeze. Probably when it broke the $800 mark pre split and was completely decoupled from its earnings and earnings potential and growth and predictive models. And then Musk released more stock and the price promptly sky rocketed with "We like Tesla!"

I've been watching stupid raises for several months, but only seen it turned back on the hedge shorts when LB started pointing weirdness concurrent with trying to understand why certain companies dominated the chrions on CNBC. Looking at PLUG and FUBO, this suggests, it was the 5th of this month and then come to a head this week.
Right but a lot of that was ascribed to loose money - and that is definitely part of the story. But to me I see TSLA as a cult stock. These are people who buy into the story about climate change, Musk's ethos, and all that. It is as much him as the company. And there is definitely populism, greed, and just nihilism in there to be sure.

That was partly why I went buy and hold mid-late last year. The market was acting weird, yet there was money to be made, but in the end it wasn't worth the amount of active management required for me. But I have been watching it and think I have a good hold on the story here. I've actually watched /r/wallstreetbets and the discord for months. That is why I find the greed thing ... off ... because it doesn't at all reflect the behavior at all for the core audience there which is frankly more anarchistic/fuck the man than anything else.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:35 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:16 pmExcept it has been happening to some extent for months in other stocks but the outrage began when hedges started losing money. The media didn't give a shit about the little guy until the big guy got punched in the nose.
I don't think that's true. I think this one in particular is so egregious that the mainstream noticed. It was a pretty big deal when Elon Musk did his 420 tweet.
I'm lost here. How does his 420 tweet factor in at all?
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

noxiousdog wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:27 pmIt sounded like you were, but if that's not the case, we are just weighing motivation differently.

I think it's far more greed related.

Anecdotes!

So I just read it. It essentially is making many of the same arguments I am.
WallStreetBets has long described itself as "4chan with a Bloomberg terminal."

Look closer at communities like 4chan or 8kun, and WallStreetBets, and it's not just a shared use of memes that link them.
One key element to 4chan is its opposition to mainstream "normie" culture, an idea that has broad applicability. For many on 4chan, normie culture is the popular kids in your high school. For WallStreetBets, the normie culture it stands in opposition to is one of "safe" mainstream investing: focusing on long-term gains, maxing out your 401(k)s, buying index funds; Suze Orman 101. "Boomer" advice, as users say.

On WallStreetBets, that's all depicted as a sucker's game.

"They don't want to wait 20 years for their bets to pay off," Blackburn said.

Swartz sees the cynicism surrounding long-term investment advice on WallStreetBets as an understandable reaction for a young generation that has witnessed two economic crises, the chaos of the Trump years, ever-growing inequality and the looming threat of catastrophic climate change.

"We're living in a time of absolutely unprecedented uncertainty," she said. "There really is no reason for anyone in their twenties to imagine that their 401(k) is going to pay off in 50, 60 years the way it did for their parents. And I'm not saying they shouldn't believe it. I'm just saying they have good reason not to."

The specter of the 2008 financial crisis, in particular, looms large over the community.

"I was in my early teens during the '08 crisis," wrote one user going by the handle ssauronn in a recent post celebrating the site's apparent (albeit potentially fleeting) victory over hedge fund Melvin Capital, which, according to CNBC, closed out its position in GameStop this week after taking a huge loss. "When that crisis hit our family, we were able to keep our little house, but we lived off of pancake mix, and powdered milk, and beans and rice for a year."

"Stop listening to the media that's making us out to be market destroyers, and start rooting for us, because we have a once in a lifetime opportunity to punish the sort of people who caused so much pain and stress a decade ago, and we're taking that opportunity."

You can also spot a shared nihilism between 4chan and WallStreetBets in their casual and ironic references to suicide. On WallStreetBets, longing "$ROPE" is an inside joke for suicide, one that is almost always posted under a disastrous loss.

4chan, 8kun and WallStreetBets exalt a cartoonish version of autism both ironically and sincerely — "autists" is a term of pride on both sites — as a superpower of persistence that allows one to fully commit to a worldview leagues apart from the stifling conventional wisdom of the mainstream.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Yeah, I'm with Malchior, here. I guess none of us has proof, but I've read enough to see that it's not ONLY about greed, that is way too simplistic. Just like saying the people that "Stormed the Capitol" (TM) were out to kill or capture Pelosi and/or Pence, or [insert very specific tactical goal here]. A FEW people were out to do that, sure, we absolutely know that now. But a LOT of the mob was (foolish and gullible) True Believers.

If you've seen the hilarious (but sad) video of the girl that just came out of the Capitol after being tear gassed/pepper sprayed, I guaran-damn-tee you that she BELIEVED that what she was doing was just and equitable as she was pushing into the building with the horde. Needed, even. Could. Not. Believe that there was pushback and consequences to her valiant and noble efforts.

I also guarantee that you have some of the same elements involved in this Finarchy (TM) thing: you've got people with money and or power at the top (potentially as leaders, or latching on later when they saw a sweet grass roots opportunity) who only care about making money, or potentially hurting competitors, then you have The Mob, many of whom have never invested in their lives, many who truly believe that they are fighting The Man (and they're not wrong in a sense), many who are just trying to make money. A LOT of whom don't fully realize the risk and danger they are in (like tear gas girl) until they have been smacked on the nose with the newspaper, as it were.

I mean, it's really a MOB. And just like a non-virtual mob, there is not just one, singular purpose. Some people join in the looting to get a new TV without paying for it. Some people are smashing and burning out of legitimate anger about injustice or whatever X is.

Some people stormed the capitol to get a trophy selfie pic they could post online and look like badassess to their social media friends.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Zarathud »

Smoove_B wrote:My takeaway from the entire event isn't about the motivations or even how it was done. Instead, it's about how no one cared about any of it until rich people suddenly potentially lost an incomprehensible amount of money.
Markets do not like instability. No matter who makes a run on the bank, it’s bad.

We have regulated markets to stop people from getting ripped off by bad actors. That includes dump-and-dump. It should include investor flash mobs.

Hedge funds are going to adjust investments for the new behavior, so they’re going to be ok in the long run.

Options also create the risk of YOLOs driving up a huge margin losses they can’t cover. That breaks markets, not just the hedge funds. It breaks Robinhood and Ameritrade too. I think the reaction includes forcing day-traders to have more money to cover the risk.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Paingod »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:51 pm My takeaway from the entire event isn't about the motivations or even how it was done. Instead, it's about how no one cared about any of it until rich people suddenly potentially lost an incomprehensible amount of money.
This is exactly where I am. Our mutual funds have taken a small hit, but we don't really have any skin in the more gambling-side of the stock market. This whole thing has been fascinating to watch, and I think that there are a dozen motivations. It may have started as a crank to try and work up value and cheese some stock, but it seems to have exposed a raw nerve that no one anticipated and it's screwing with some big money that a lot of little people have no vested interest in except that they feel like this is maybe the very first thing they've ever been able to do that might make a billionaire blink. And they like it.

I've been watching post after post on Reddit, and the whole place - 1.6M became 6M members in one week - of that subreddit all seem to be waving pitchforks and torches.
Zarathud wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:48 pm It breaks Robinhood and Ameritrade too.
If I've been reading it right, Robinhood may just find themselves in all kinds of other issues for other reasons.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Kurth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:53 pm

Interesting article (thanks for the link), but I couldn't get through it before stumbling at this description of short selling:
Many celebrated WallStreetBets' war on GameStop short-sellers as a populist campaign against hedge-fund raiders looking to profit off the destruction of a well-known retail brand like GameStop. But unlike many other similar online communities, there is also a clear financial goal for the people in it.
This is just so much bullshit. There's nothing wrong with short selling. It's not vultures picking over the bones of sad, dying companies. Short sellers are not "hedge-fund raiders" (whatever the fuck that means). Institutional short selling is actually a stabilizing force, or should be when not manipulated by a bunch of greedy redditors and a legion of idiots who really have no business trading but are now empowered to do so by the Robinhoods of the world.

So much garbage. I hate populism. Maybe I just hate people. :evil:
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by Kurth »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:30 pm
Kurth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:53 pm

Interesting article (thanks for the link), but I couldn't get through it before stumbling at this description of short selling:
Many celebrated WallStreetBets' war on GameStop short-sellers as a populist campaign against hedge-fund raiders looking to profit off the destruction of a well-known retail brand like GameStop. But unlike many other similar online communities, there is also a clear financial goal for the people in it.
This is just so much bullshit. There's nothing wrong with short selling. It's not vultures picking over the bones of sad, dying companies. Short sellers are not "hedge-fund raiders" (whatever the fuck that means). Institutional short selling is actually a stabilizing force, or should be when not manipulated by a bunch of greedy redditors and a legion of idiots who really have no business trading but are now empowered to do so by the Robinhoods of the world.

So much garbage. I hate populism. Maybe I just hate people. :evil:
Dilligent shorts uncover more corporate shenanigans and fraud than dilligent longs.
Plus, if you’re not a diligent short, watch the fuck out!

I wonder how many of the idiots jumping on this GameStop circus understand the fundamental concept that if you buy a stock, your potential loss is capped by the amount you paid for the stock, but if you short a stock, your potential losses are unlimited.
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Re: The Viral Economy

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:41 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:30 pm
Kurth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:53 pm

Interesting article (thanks for the link), but I couldn't get through it before stumbling at this description of short selling:
Many celebrated WallStreetBets' war on GameStop short-sellers as a populist campaign against hedge-fund raiders looking to profit off the destruction of a well-known retail brand like GameStop. But unlike many other similar online communities, there is also a clear financial goal for the people in it.
This is just so much bullshit. There's nothing wrong with short selling. It's not vultures picking over the bones of sad, dying companies. Short sellers are not "hedge-fund raiders" (whatever the fuck that means). Institutional short selling is actually a stabilizing force, or should be when not manipulated by a bunch of greedy redditors and a legion of idiots who really have no business trading but are now empowered to do so by the Robinhoods of the world.

So much garbage. I hate populism. Maybe I just hate people. :evil:
Dilligent shorts uncover more corporate shenanigans and fraud than dilligent longs.
Plus, if you’re not a diligent short, watch the fuck out!

I wonder how many of the idiots jumping on this GameStop circus understand the fundamental concept that if you buy a stock, your potential loss is capped by the amount you paid for the stock, but if you short a stock, your potential losses are unlimited.
It's low. Very low.
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