The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

It's a laughable defense effort because they know they have it in the bag. There's nothing they are going to say or do that will change the minds of the 40+ (R) Senators that have already decided they're going to vote not guilty.

As has been pointed out, this is for the history books. At least someone somewhere (likely outside of America) can document that we weren't all insane. But holding Trump and the GOP accountable for any of it? Nope.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by stessier »

malchior wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:29 pm In other news, the opening of today's defense is predictably bad. These guys are not 'top men'. It included to quote that Trump was not guilty of 'Incitement to Resurrection'. I expect many memes.
Must be disappointing to those believing he was the Second Coming.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

It also speaks to where we are, divisiveness-wise, right now. You could walk down the street and pick out his defense team from the first people you see, and he would STILL not be convicted.
1. Trump can't get top talent to represent him on this
BUT
2. He doesn't NEED top talent to represent him on this, because it was a foregone conclusion that he wasn't getting convicted, before the trial even started.

Edit: Oops, what Smoove said above
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Zaxxon »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:34 pm It's a laughable defense effort because they know they have it in the bag. There's nothing they are going to say or do that will change the minds of the 40+ (R) Senators that have already decided they're going to vote not guilty.

As has been pointed out, this is for the history books. At least someone somewhere (likely outside of America) can document that we weren't all insane. But holding Trump and the GOP accountable for any of it? Nope.
Yep. Why try really hard when you've already won? Especially when there's really no actual case to make by trying really hard.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Octavious »

I personally haven't even been following as what's the f'n point? My stress level has dropped A TON with the asshat being out. It will skyrocket back up in 2024 I'm sure. I swear I will just walk around and punch his supporters if they somehow vote him back in.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Octavious wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:36 pm I personally haven't even been following as what's the f'n point? My stress level has dropped A TON with the asshat being out. It will skyrocket back up in 2024 I'm sure. I swear I will just walk around and punch his supporters if they somehow vote him back in.
Then you definitely don't want to change your avatar anytime soon!
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:34 pm It's a laughable defense effort because they know they have it in the bag. There's nothing they are going to say or do that will change the minds of the 40+ (R) Senators that have already decided they're going to vote not guilty.

As has been pointed out, this is for the history books. At least someone somewhere (likely outside of America) can document that we weren't all insane. But holding Trump and the GOP accountable for any of it? Nope.
I have to imagine if humanity still has all this stuff they'd have a near perfect record of everything that happened. It just needs to be sorted and analyzed. I suspect history won't be kind but then again these people don't give a shit anymore. The people enabling this got theirs. I stand amazed that people stormed the Capitol before regular people rolled out the guillotines.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Octavious »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:38 pm
Octavious wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:36 pm I personally haven't even been following as what's the f'n point? My stress level has dropped A TON with the asshat being out. It will skyrocket back up in 2024 I'm sure. I swear I will just walk around and punch his supporters if they somehow vote him back in.
Then you definitely don't want to change your avatar anytime soon!
Hell no... Just looking at the weather forecast for next week makes me want to put an even grumpier avatar up. :lol:
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

So I'm getting the mounting impression this defense isn't just bad but it is dangerous. They have made accusations that the House managers manufactured evidence. They are essentially doubling down on the big lie in a different form. This is dangerous stuff folks.

Edit: They are full on running a bothsides defense too. Right now a litany of times Senator Warren and others used the word fight in their speeches. Because we all remember the time that Warren sent a crowd that rioted. This is an *ugly defense*. We are barreling into the mouth of more violence I fear.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:40 pm I suspect history won't be kind but then again these people don't give a shit anymore. The people enabling this got theirs.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by $iljanus »

These supercuts of the usage of the word fight is pretty amateurish. I loved the clip of Warren calling for people to fight at the Woman's March. I don't recall a sacking of the Capitol that day...
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

$iljanus wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:54 pm These supercuts of the usage of the word fight is pretty amateurish. I loved the clip of Warren calling for people to fight at the Woman's March. I don't recall a sacking of the Capitol that day...
I agree but we're not the audience here. They are pretty much saying, "This impeachment is rich - they have been calling us to fight them." The danger here is the message that will be received is that the Democrats said they were going to fight and we had to fight back. It's ugly, ugly, ugly.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Octavious »

malchior wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:49 pm So I'm getting the mounting impression this defense isn't just bad but it is dangerous. They have made accusations that the House managers manufactured evidence. They are essentially doubling down on the big lie in a different form. This is dangerous stuff folks.

Edit: They are full on running a bothsides defense too. Right now a litany of times Senator Warren and others used the word fight in their speeches. Because we all remember the time that Warren sent a crowd that rioted. This is an *ugly defense*. We are barreling into the mouth of more violence I fear.
I'd say the majority of people are barely even paying attention to this. It really comes down to what crazy we elect in for 2024. I'm collecting TP between now and then.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Octavious wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:58 pm
malchior wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:49 pm So I'm getting the mounting impression this defense isn't just bad but it is dangerous. They have made accusations that the House managers manufactured evidence. They are essentially doubling down on the big lie in a different form. This is dangerous stuff folks.

Edit: They are full on running a bothsides defense too. Right now a litany of times Senator Warren and others used the word fight in their speeches. Because we all remember the time that Warren sent a crowd that rioted. This is an *ugly defense*. We are barreling into the mouth of more violence I fear.
I'd say the majority of people are barely even paying attention to this. It really comes down to what crazy we elect in for 2024. I'm collecting TP between now and then.
Yeah, from what I have read, NO ONE is paying attention to this in America, except people whose careers depend on it (and political/news junkies like us). I think that is probably a net positive.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

I hope so because this message is pretty bad. As a anecdote about the outside the USA angle, I did have a 'sales' / catch up talk with a former colleague who now just landed a CISO spot at a company in Europe (specifically in Amsterdam). I am trying to get a foot in the door to sell some work at my new consultancy. We got into this whole impeachment thing and he was pretty tuned in on it. That always surprises me because people on the street here have no clue what is happening. He jokingly said he'd hire me to run his SOC/Security Analytics program so I could get out of the asylum. That sounds super appealing right now.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Lol. Trump's lawyer just made a bizarre argument that his license is now in danger because he is working this case. I'll try to connect the dots because it is insanity. The House Managers cited a letter by some law professors about the weakness of a 1st Amendment defense and how it was frivolous. VanDeen points out that lawyers who promulgate frivolous arguments can be sanctioned by courts for this. He then told the House Manager they should be ashamed of themselves for endangering his ability to provide for his family. Okkkkk.

He isn't focusing on the right problem. He forgot that this isn't a court. He isn't going to get sanctioned. Instead he took the job. He didn't have to. He didn't account that maybe people won't want to hire him after this because it is a potential consequence of the poor quality of his work product and his composure.

Edit: Some outside reference.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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I’ll add my anecdotal experience: We have calls every Tuesday morning with our European team and evening with our Asia-Pacific team. Usually a couple dozen people on each call. This impeachment was all they wanted to talk about. They are paying close attention and, sadly, see the outcome as a referendum on whether the U.S. has returned to sanity.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Kurth wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:39 pm I’ll add my anecdotal experience: We have calls every Tuesday morning with our European team and evening with our Asia-Pacific team. Usually a couple dozen people on each call. This impeachment was all they wanted to talk about. They are paying close attention and, sadly, see the outcome as a referendum on whether the U.S. has returned to sanity.
Well I hadn't thought of that angle. I do think it looks horrible for us around the world that we're perfectly fine with trying to overthrow the country. The people in our country? They don't give a shit. They will just believe whatever they want to believe and will vote for the next or perhaps same nutter in the next election.

My stepmother is constantly spouting right wing nonsense on FB. And she's one of many like that. No matter what the R's do it's SOCIALISM that's the problem. And they wonder why I don't want to visit. :lol:
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Octavious wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:43 pm
Kurth wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:39 pm I’ll add my anecdotal experience: We have calls every Tuesday morning with our European team and evening with our Asia-Pacific team. Usually a couple dozen people on each call. This impeachment was all they wanted to talk about. They are paying close attention and, sadly, see the outcome as a referendum on whether the U.S. has returned to sanity.
Well I hadn't thought of that angle. I do think it looks horrible for us around the world that we're perfectly fine with trying to overthrow the country. The people in our country? They don't give a shit. They will just believe whatever they want to believe and will vote for the next or perhaps same nutter in the next election.

My stepmother is constantly spouting right wing nonsense on FB. And she's one of many like that. No matter what the R's do it's SOCIALISM that's the problem. And they wonder why I don't want to visit. :lol:
Same here. The last time I visited was a random stop by when I had a break in my schedule down in Morristown a little over a year ago. They were saying some crazy shit and I was like...cool.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:39 pm I’ll add my anecdotal experience: We have calls every Tuesday morning with our European team and evening with our Asia-Pacific team. Usually a couple dozen people on each call. This impeachment was all they wanted to talk about. They are paying close attention and, sadly, see the outcome as a referendum on whether the U.S. has returned to sanity.
When I was working with my European client and ran around the world I found this out first hand. America is important to them. And they were all concerned. The theme was, if the world's greatest democracy can fall to pieces, then is any democracy safe? People overseas are concerned and they see us clearly.
Last edited by malchior on Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Kurth wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:39 pm I’ll add my anecdotal experience: We have calls every Tuesday morning with our European team and evening with our Asia-Pacific team. Usually a couple dozen people on each call. This impeachment was all they wanted to talk about. They are paying close attention and, sadly, see the outcome as a referendum on whether the U.S. has returned to sanity.
Yeah, as much as I wish that myself, it ain't happening. While Trump is obviously an anomaly for "traditional America" that RoW knows/loves/loves to hate, he is but a product of the much broader people and media that fuel the anger and violence . I was hoping it would be like a switch, but I don't think the Trump ragers are going anywhere.

He's still out there for one, and for SURE lots of his pissed off adherents are still out there. Their extreme right positions/thinking have not changed just because he's not in the WH. They will look for Trump 2.0 (and literally, maybe Trump 2.0 :puke-front: ) as a lightning rod for their pent-up rage. And then you have half of Congress still supporting him, hoping to ride his coattails for their own political gain.

While I hoped for this to be a teaching moment for us as a country, and that we could somehow fix this, I fear that America has been dramatically changed for the worse this time.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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This is my shocked face.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Octavious wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:43 pm My stepmother is constantly spouting right wing nonsense on FB. And she's one of many like that. No matter what the R's do it's SOCIALISM that's the problem. And they wonder why I don't want to visit. :lol:
My aunt was complaining to me yesterday that she doesn't understand what's taking so long with vaccine production. I pointed out that President Biden invoked the Defense Production Act and has forced the vaccine manufacturing industry to figure out how to make more and make it faster. She then followed up with "but why did he wait so long??", at which point I reminded her he's been President for (checks calendar) ~3 weeks. If only there was some other President - like maybe one right before him that could have done the exact same thing in September of last year but intentionally didn't. It's beyond enraging and why I have no hope any of this matters.

The trial needs to happen for the history books and the sane people left in federal, state and local governments need to follow Stacy Abrams' playbook and immediately pivot to doing everything they can to protect the 2022 and 2024 elections from additional suppression. We're in trouble and this trial should be a giant flashing red siren to those paying attention.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Seriously. So shocked. If 'moderates' like Murkowski about buying this litany of whataboutism...well this game truly was rigged from the beginning.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

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The one sliver of hope I have is that while "Trumpism" itself isn't going anywhere, it's a lot more difficult to pull off when you're not an *actual* extreme narcissist. I'm not sure how you emulate Trump without the complete package of mental illness that enabled his behavior.

Sure, the GOP can double down on hypocrisy, reality denial, constant dishonesty, etc. It will continue to exist in some form. But it's going to be blunted at least somewhat if you don't have people like Trump who *actually* believe what they're spewing and are willing to engage in any and all necessary behavior to promote it.

I could be proven wrong, but I think we need some distance from Trump to actually understand how effective the philosophy is going to be in his absence.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by El Guapo »

What do people think the final vote is going to be? I think Romney and Toomey are the most likely yes votes. My guess is that we also get yes votes from Collins and Sasse, and probably (but not 100% sure) all Democrats. So I'll guess that the final vote is going to be 54 yes - 46 no. But I wouldn't be shocked by anything from 49 yes votes to maybe 58 at the high end.

The only way we get anywhere close to conviction is if McConnell decides he wants to be rid of Trump and puts his weight into whipping up yes votes, and I've seen almost no indication that he's inclined to do that.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:27 pm The one sliver of hope I have is that while "Trumpism" itself isn't going anywhere, it's a lot more difficult to pull off when you're not an *actual* extreme narcissist. I'm not sure how you emulate Trump without the complete package of mental illness that enabled his behavior.

Sure, the GOP can double down on hypocrisy, reality denial, constant dishonesty, etc. It will continue to exist in some form. But it's going to be blunted at least somewhat if you don't have people like Trump who *actually* believe what they're spewing and are willing to engage in any and all necessary behavior to promote it.

I could be proven wrong, but I think we need some distance from Trump to actually understand how effective the philosophy is going to be in his absence.
Those are good points. I was about to retort, snarkily "Ted Cruz just said 'Hold my beer'" but I don't think he REALLY believes all the BS he fights for (at some level, sure). He's more of an opportunist. Trump was also that, obviously, but as you say, he REALLY believed his bs (like "I didn't lose!") because he HAD to, else his head would explode and he would cease to be. It's PART of him, whereas these other a-holes seem to be just conveniently latching on and taking advantage of stupid and/or selfish people.

Take Graham - he's on record as having flashes of sanity wrt Trump. But the rhetoric he spews MOST of the time is in support of him. He VERY likely hates Trump, and thinks he's an arsehole (he is). Hell, he pretty much said that at one point. But poor Lindsey has NO charisma, something (I guess) that Trump DOES have, and was a big part of his win. Same for Cruz. What a turd! NEGATIVE charisma in his case, FFS.

IMO, the scariest order of 2024 candidates:
1. Trump (whether he wins or loses, BOTH scenarios spell doom for us)
2. Trumpspawn
3. Pols that have tried to carefully navigate between traditional GOP and Tumpism - Haley and some others
4. The host of Trump wannabes (when convenient) like Cruz, Graham, Hawley, etc.

3 is less scary than 4, but much more likely to win/get elected.
Last edited by Carpet_pissr on Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

At the start, I thought it would be 56 - 44, but since I have no faith in any member of the GOP, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 52 - 48.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Little Raven »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:34 pmThose are good points. I was about to retort, snarkily "Ted Cruz just said 'Hold my beer'" but I don't think he REALLY believes all the BS he fights for (at some level, sure).
Ted Cruz also has the charisma of a bag of week old garbage.

I don't pretend to understand why, but a whole lot of people really like Trump's act. Even if they don't like or care about what he actually does, they enjoy the hell out of watching him do it. I can't deny the man has a serious talent for entertainment.

None of the potential heirs to the Trump throne have that spark. None of them even come close, at least so far. Trump voters aren't going anywhere, but I don't think you can really have Trumpism without Trump.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:27 pm The one sliver of hope I have is that while "Trumpism" itself isn't going anywhere, it's a lot more difficult to pull off when you're not an *actual* extreme narcissist. I'm not sure how you emulate Trump without the complete package of mental illness that enabled his behavior.

Sure, the GOP can double down on hypocrisy, reality denial, constant dishonesty, etc. It will continue to exist in some form. But it's going to be blunted at least somewhat if you don't have people like Trump who *actually* believe what they're spewing and are willing to engage in any and all necessary behavior to promote it.
Hawley is attempting to do it right now. I always worried about Cotton but he doesn't have the presence that Hawley does. And Hawley isn't afraid to put on performance art in favor of power.
I could be proven wrong, but I think we need some distance from Trump to actually understand how effective the philosophy is going to be in his absence.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Little Raven wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:39 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:34 pmThose are good points. I was about to retort, snarkily "Ted Cruz just said 'Hold my beer'" but I don't think he REALLY believes all the BS he fights for (at some level, sure).
Ted Cruz also has the charisma of a bag of week old garbage.

I don't pretend to understand why, but a whole lot of people really like Trump's act. Even if they don't like or care about what he actually does, they enjoy the hell out of watching him do it. I can't deny the man has a serious talent for entertainment.
It is partly true and partly something else. I really recommend digging up one of his rallies in 2019 or 2020. Lots of people will be there even with Covid. A lot of cheering when he arrives and leaves but while he is rambling it gets stock quiet. He just rambles on and they listen. The whole thing is bizarre.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Kurth »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:34 pm IMO, the scariest order of 2024 candidates:
1. Trump (whether he wins or loses, BOTH scenarios spell doom for us)
2. Trumpspawn
3. Pols that have tried to carefully navigate between traditional GOP and Tumpism - Haley and some others
4. The host of Trump wannabes (when convenient) like Cruz, Graham, Hawley, etc.

3 is less scary than 4, but much more likely to win/get elected.
What's sad and scary for me is that I can only really see (1) or (2) getting the nomination.

With the exception of Hawley, the group of lowlifes that make up (4) already tried to go up against Trump and got clubbed into submission and subservience. Do you think they'd even bother throwing their hat in the ring if Trump (or Trumpspawn) are running in 2024? No fucking way. How would that even work? They can't run as being most loyal to Trump while running against Trump.

The group in (3) may still try in a primary, but we already know how that story ends, too. They'll be branded RINOs and tagged with disparaging and juvenile nicknames by Trump and will, again, get clubbed into submission.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:09 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:34 pm IMO, the scariest order of 2024 candidates:
1. Trump (whether he wins or loses, BOTH scenarios spell doom for us)
2. Trumpspawn
3. Pols that have tried to carefully navigate between traditional GOP and Tumpism - Haley and some others
4. The host of Trump wannabes (when convenient) like Cruz, Graham, Hawley, etc.

3 is less scary than 4, but much more likely to win/get elected.
I think there is a scenario where (1) or (2) endorse/partner with a (3) or (4). I think that is what most of the (4) types are doing but where Hawley is exceling. He has done the most to stand out performatively. He wants Trump to hear about how he is separating himself up in the gallery with his feet up mocking the whole proceedings. It is an audition.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by malchior »

Wait. Did I really hear an argument that the 'real reason' for this trial is to cancel the voices of 75 million people and expand cancel culture? This whole thing really feels like it was a dog whistle and a show for Trump's ego.

But that is it. Trump's defense wraps up. They literally argued very little beyond whataboutism and right-wing perceptions of victimhood. This has been really dark stuff today. Jeez.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Octavious »

He's damn lucky that he didn't have to actually provide a defense.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

If you know they're going to acquit and that you aren't going to get paid, might as well do as little work as possible.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by stessier »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:41 pm If you know they're going to acquit and that you aren't going to get paid, might as well do as little work as possible.
The theory of taking the gig, though, is that others who are willing to pay are inspired by your defense and want you to defend them. That sure seems unlikely...but I'm not the target audience.
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Ralph-Wiggum
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

stessier wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:45 pm
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:41 pm If you know they're going to acquit and that you aren't going to get paid, might as well do as little work as possible.
The theory of taking the gig, though, is that others who are willing to pay are inspired by your defense and want you to defend them. That sure seems unlikely...but I'm not the target audience.
I'm sure there will be plenty of Trumpaphiles who are suitably impressed and will want to hire them for their defense to make up for all the sane people who should want nothing to do with them now.
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YellowKing
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by YellowKing »

When you're that good at dismantling the House managers' offensive, unconstitutional arguments, you only need 3 hours.
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Zaxxon
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Re: The Trump Impeachment Thread

Post by Zaxxon »

This is not intrigue, Politico. The result will either be acquittal by 12 or more votes, or acquittal by 7ish votes.
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