Post-Withdrawal Iraq

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GreenGoo
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by GreenGoo »

Defiant wrote: Even broken clocks are right twice a day.
That was my point. But that doesn't mean that the clock is taking a principled stance twice a day. It means that by some happy coincidence the world lined up with it's completely arbitrary, unreasoning and contrary arguments.

Does a broken clock deserve respect twice a day for being right?

As to the random nature of their complaints, I disagree that they are just calling him a wimp. That you found an article claiming he is a wimp is again, random luck. You can find Republican quotes that state a whole slew of things. In your case, you're looking at one article that backs up your statement. If you look at everything being spewed, your article is just one of a host of positions/complaints.

If anything, they are even less principled or unified than was implied by Zarathud. They aren't just holding diametrically opposing positions, but many positions in between as well (hence my "throwing everything at the wall" comment).
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Carpet_pissr »

We also should consider that these seemingly contradictory complaints are coming from different factions within the GOP. It's particularly...fractious currently, I think, which leads the opposition to claim inconsistency, as if every person with an (R) behind their name represents the ideology of the party.

Jon Stewart is notorious for doing this, but he does it I think primarily because it leads to some funny material and bits.

As for the actual contradictory stances, you see some R's claiming that he's being a headstrong, lawless, out of control cowboy (Dictator/King) by not consulting others before making decisions, and other R's golf clapping his actions, but saying he did not go far enough, and/or, too little, too late.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Defiant »

GreenGoo wrote:
Defiant wrote: Even broken clocks are right twice a day.
That was my point. But that doesn't mean that the clock is taking a principled stance twice a day. It means that by some happy coincidence the world lined up with it's completely arbitrary, unreasoning and contrary arguments.
But Zarthud's complaint was that they were being inconsistent and contradictory in their complaints of his reaction to Russia and his reaction to ISIS.

I haven't seen that.
In your case, you're looking at one article that backs up your statement. If you look at everything being spewed, your article is just one of a host of positions/complaints.
I had looked at a bunch of articles, but I'm open to having missed something. Are there any complaints other than "Airstrikes won't be enough" and "Congress approval is needed if this lasts longer than 90 days"?
If anything, they are even less principled or unified than was implied by Zarathud. They aren't just holding diametrically opposing positions, but many positions in between as well (hence my "throwing everything at the wall" comment).
What are the diametrically opposing positions they're holding?
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by GreenGoo »

Defiant wrote:What are the diametrically opposing positions they're holding?
wimp/warmonger positions. I'll see if I can scrounge up some examples.

Usually, after a few days, they tend to get in step with each other, but that initial period before they get a chance to get organized, individuals being interviewed say all sorts of complete nonsense, even stuff contrary to the party's official position, which they then walk back ineffectually.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Defiant »

GreenGoo wrote:
Defiant wrote:What are the diametrically opposing positions they're holding?
wimp/warmonger positions. I'll see if I can scrounge up some examples.

Usually, after a few days, they tend to get in step with each other, but that initial period before they get a chance to get organized, individuals being interviewed say all sorts of complete nonsense, even stuff contrary to the party's official position, which they then walk back ineffectually.
Sure. But here, I'm not seeing the warmonger position. Closest I'm seeing is that he needs congressional approval, but you can approve of the air strikes (or think they're not sufficient) and still think that he needs to get authority from Congress. Because War Powers Act. (And because he never sought it last time)
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Isgrimnur »

Re: Libya
Some have questioned the legality of the military action in relation to the War Powers Resolution and the United States Constitution, stating, for instance, that "[President Obama] abandoned the constitutional principles he carefully articulated as a presidential candidate in 2007 and . . . [t]he decision to act unilaterally without seeking congressional authority eventually forced the administration to adopt legal interpretations that were not only strained, but in several cases incredulous. . . . There is only one permitted mandate under the U.S. Constitution for the use of military force against another nation that has not attacked or threatened the United States. That mandate must come from Congress." However, while on the surface it may appear that the President was acting entirely unilaterally, the president's June report to Congress outlined at least minimal consultation on Libya from March 1 including multiple hearings, member and staff briefings, phone calls, and emails.

In defending the action the Obama administration asserted that: Barack Obama had "constitutional authority to conduct U.S. foreign relations and as Commander in Chief and Chief Executive" and that the Libyan operation "d[id] not under that law require further congressional authorization, because U.S. military operations are distinct from the kind of 'hostilities' contemplated by the Resolution's 60 day termination provision."
...
On June 15, ten Representatives led by Dennis Kucinich filed a lawsuit against President Obama for violating the WPR; the lawsuit was dismissed by US District Judge Reggie Walton. According to Walton, the Supreme Court of the United States had already limited lawsuits against the executive branch: "While there may conceivably be some political benefit in suing the president and the secretary of defense, in light of shrinking judicial budgets, scarce judicial resources, and a heavy caseload, the court finds it frustrating to expend time and effort adjudicating the re-litigation of settled questions of law."[84]
More at the link.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Sepiche »

No details yet, but BBC is reporting that Nouri al-Maliki is stepping down.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28798033
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Defiant »

Isgrimnur wrote:
On June 15, ten Representatives led by Dennis Kucinich filed a lawsuit against President Obama for violating the WPR; the lawsuit was dismissed by US District Judge Reggie Walton. According to Walton, the Supreme Court of the United States had already limited lawsuits against the executive branch: "While there may conceivably be some political benefit in suing the president and the secretary of defense, in light of shrinking judicial budgets, scarce judicial resources, and a heavy caseload, the court finds it frustrating to expend time and effort adjudicating the re-litigation of settled questions of law."
So if they can't sue the president for failing to abide by the war powers act, is their only alternative to impeach or censure the President?
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Kraken »

Third time's a charm?
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Pyperkub »

Kraken wrote:Third time's a charm?
That really depends. From what I've read, the Iraqi government was corrupt and persecuted and marginalized the Sunnis. In many ways they drove a chunk of their populace to AQI/ISIS because those people had no other choice.

I don't really know what the answer is for this religious war over there. Fear of god won't work without extermination. If we want Iraq settled, we'd have to setup a protectorate for at least a decade, and more like a generation.

Is that worth it for a religious war in which 95%+ of Americans don't even know what the argument is about, and who is an actual good guy?

A limited engagement to prevent and discourage atrocities is probably the best we can do.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by El Guapo »

Pyperkub wrote:
A limited engagement to prevent and discourage atrocities is probably the best we can do.
Pretty much. I think it likely that we'll be deploying air power, soft power, and probably some form of covert ops / military advisers in the country and region for some time, to hit down the worst (ISIS type) actors. But otherwise mostly nudging and hoping for the best.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Drazzil »

I think we should leave the middle east to its own devices. We can't fix whats been broken for thousands of years.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by hepcat »

The world is no longer small enough for that to be a viable option.
He won. Period.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by El Guapo »

hepcat wrote:The world is no longer small enough for that to be a viable option.
Well let's make the world bigger, then.

Do I have to think of everything?
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by hepcat »

In order to do that, we will need to get rid of all forms of travel other than the horse and buggy. I propose that we send in a special team of researchers to find out how the Amish do it. I would offer up the following names:

JeffV

Actually, that's the only name.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Or go the other extreme. Frankly, I'm surprised that it took 9 pages for the discussion to get around to space colonization/Mars. :P
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by hepcat »

I'm not really sure that Jeff and a bunch of Amish families would thrive on Mars though. :?
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Jeff V »

hepcat wrote:I'm not really sure that Jeff and a bunch of Amish families would thrive on Mars though. :?
Send barn-building material if you must but leave me out of it. I'm allergic to red dust. Otherwise, I believe deporting the Amish to a different planet and allowing Isis to occupy Pennsylvania would indeed solve all of our problems.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by hepcat »

"Today, my brothers, we are not building a barn...we are not building a house...we are building a future! So let us put our hands to tools and create this most beloved of all objects...the stripper pole!"
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Jeff V »

hepcat wrote:"Today, my brothers, we are not building a barn...we are not building a house...we are building a future! So let us put our hands to tools and create this most beloved of all objects...the stripper pole!"
By the time an Amish stripper finishes shedding her 2 dozen petticoats, the whole club would be passed out drunk. :P
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by hepcat »

...and THAT'S when your real work begins.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

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Ramadi falls to IS
The Islamic State on Friday took control of the provincial government center of Ramadi, the capital of Iraq’s largest province, in a major defeat for the Iraqi government.

Islamic State forces launched a fierce assault of car bombs on Iraqi government security facilities overnight, and by late afternoon, their black flag was flying over the governor’s office. Security forces appeared to be in full flight as militants consolidated control over the area and prevented anyone from leaving the area.
...
Local residents and security officials confirmed that not only was the Islamic State blocking residents from leaving the area, but had been going house to house gathering mobile phones of residents and had executed at least 50 pro-government tribal fighters as well as several top tribal leaders as they took control of the area.
...
One police officer told McClatchy that the Islamic State used armored bulldozers to move blast walls and other fortifications to clear the way for the wave of suicide bombers in vehicles, who then decimated much of the city center’s defenses.

Security officials, while begging Baghdad commanders for immediate reinforcements, air support and help with evacuation, said they were moving as many of their routed troops and other civilians from pro government tribes to a stadium on the outskirts of town in the hopes of evacuating them by air. The stadium, to the south of the city, was being protected by the Iraqi Army’s elite Golden Brigade, one of the last combat effective units available to the government in the area, but some local residents from tribes not directly affiliated with the government said the soldiers were preventing many civilians from reaching the last safe haven because of fears that Islamic State militants were hiding among them.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

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Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

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Commando raid on ISIS prison:
An American soldier was fatally wounded on Thursday as American and Kurdish commandos raided an Islamic State prison in northern Iraq after learning that the prisoners faced imminent mass execution, the Pentagon said. The commando became the first American soldier killed in action in Iraq since the withdrawal in 2011.

The raid, near the town of Hawija, freed 70 prisoners, including Kurds and more than 20 Iraqi security forces, the Pentagon said in a statement. Five Islamic State fighters were detained and several killed, and American officials said important intelligence about the terrorist group was recovered.

Some details of the classified operation remained unclear. But as described by Iraqi officials in the area, the mission appeared to be a significant joint strike against the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, at a time when Iraqi and American officials are trying to mount a wider counteroffensive against the militants.

Fears that the prisoners were in danger may have been reinforced by the militants’ actions in recent days. An Iraqi in the Hawija area, who asked not to be named because he feared retribution from the Islamic State, said this week that the militants had recently executed 11 young men who were the sons or relatives of police officers or other Iraqi forces. He said their bodies had been hanged on a nearby bridge.

American and Iraqi officials said the raid involved American helicopters, Kurdish and American Special Operations forces, and airstrikes. The commando who was killed was not identified pending notification of his family. Four Kurdish soldiers were wounded as well, officials said.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Isgrimnur »

KIA: MSgt Joshua Wheeler, Delta Force.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by GreenGoo »

Isgrimnur wrote:KIA: MSgt Joshua Wheeler, Delta Force.
From what I read previously, the rescue was a success and the lives of 70ish people were saved via the raid, as well as 5 ISIS members captured.

If you're a commando, I would think this was a pretty good mission to give your life for, if you had a choice of which mission you were going to die on.

:handgestures-salute:
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Isgrimnur »

Better than as cargo in a C-130 crash, I have no doubt.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Max Peck »

From some of the accounts I've seen, the Americans were there in an advisory/support role, but made a decision in the heat of battle to go to the aid of a group of Kurdish fighters who were pinned down and beginning to take casualties.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Isgrimnur »

NBC
Master Sergeant Joshua Wheeler of Roland, Oklahoma, a highly-decorated soldier and father of four, rushed into action when he heard sounds of gunfire coming from a prison in Iraq where dozens of ISIS-held hostage were being held on Thursday.

Those actions, Defense Secretary Ash Carter told reporters on Friday, weren't part of the original rescue mission plan, but were critical to its success.
...
Defense Secretary Ash Carter said Friday that Wheeler "did what proud Americans do" when he ran toward the sound of gunfire.

The operation marked the first known instance of American service members battling ISIS fighters on the ground in Iraq under President Obama's new mission to "train and advise" local forces against the terror group.

Carter said that the military expects "more raids of this kind" and that the rescue mission "represents a continuation of our advise and assist mission."

This may mean some American soldiers "will be in harm's way, no question about it," Carter said.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by GreenGoo »

I'm less likely to use the word hero than some, but by all accounts this guy was one.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Max Peck »

Ahmed Chalabi has left the building. When the dust finally settles (it has to, sooner or later, right?) I can't imagine that history will be kind to him.

Ahmed Chalabi, Iraqi politician who championed US invasion, dies
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Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi politician most associated with persuading the US to invade in 2003, has died aged 71.

Officials said he was found dead at his home in Baghdad in his bed, apparently having suffered a heart attack.

The secular Shia was once championed by the US as a potential leader of Iraq.

But they fell out after the invasion turned into a bloody occupation, and information which he had provided about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction capability was discredited.

Mr Chalabi was also in charge of the commission that stripped members of Saddam's Baath party of their positions and is seen as one of the causes of the current sectarian strife in Iraq.

Analysis: Jim Muir, BBC News, Beirut
Ahmed Chalabi was one of the most controversial and colourful figures on the Iraqi political scene.

He never regretted his role in persuading - some, including himself, would say tricking - the Americans into invading Iraq and toppling Saddam Hussein, his hated enemy, in 2003.

He returned to Baghdad after that from exile in the UK and US, and was ubiquitous in Iraqi politics - a thoroughly modern man of great charm and influence.

He came from a big Shia family, but enjoyed strong relations with all political factions in both the Arab and Kurdish communities as well as with many outside players, including Iran and, despite everything, parts of the American establishment.

He was a leading contender for the job of Iraqi prime minister last year, but never managed fully to throw off the legacy of his role in 2003, or the fallout from his stewardship of the Petra Bank in Jordan, which collapsed in the early 1990s.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Pyperkub »

Yup. He definitely played the neocons.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Max Peck »

The story of one of the people rescued in the raid on the IS prison near Hawija.

Tortured by Islamic State, rescued before execution: freed hostages recount ordeal
The last thing that came to Saad Khalaf Ali's mind as his Islamic State interrogators smothered him with a plastic bag was his two wives and children. Then everything went dark. He was jolted back to his senses by an electric current coursing through his body, and came round soaked in water and gasping for breath on the floor of a prison in northern Iraq. The former policeman is one of many Iraqis to have suffered at the hands of Islamic State, which tortures, executes or beheads anyone deemed immoral or an opponent of its ideology and its goal of creating a caliphate across the Muslim world.

Saad withstood the punishment but succumbed to psychological pressure when the militants threatened to slaughter his entire family. He confessed to informing Kurdish and Iraqi forces about Islamic State positions, an action frequently punishable by beheading or shooting at point blank range. “I confessed to everything,” said the 32-year old former policeman from the Hawija area. A small man with large ears, Saad was brought blindfolded before a judge who sentenced him to death. It would have been carried out on the morning of Oct. 22 if not for a daring rescue mission that same night by Kurdish and U.S. Special Forces. Saad and 68 other hostages were freed.

Reuters interviewed three of them at a security facility in the Kurdish regional capital Erbil. The men recounted their experiences of life under Islamic State rule, and the physical and psychological torment that often comes with it. Many of the prisoners were former members of the Iraqi security forces who fought some of the same insurgents before the militants overran a third of Iraq. Reuters could not independently verify the accounts.

One U.S. commando was killed - the first American to die in ground combat in Iraq since the United States withdrew its troops in 2011 - and four Kurds were wounded in the rescue.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Iraqis think the U.S. is in cahoots with the Islamic State, and it is hurting the war:
Washington Post wrote:BAIJI, Iraq — On the front lines of the battle against the Islamic State, suspicion of the United States runs deep. Iraqi fighters say they have all seen the videos purportedly showing U.S. helicopters airdropping weapons to the militants, and many claim they have friends and relatives who have witnessed similar instances of collusion.

Ordinary people also have seen the videos, heard the stories and reached the same conclusion — one that might seem absurd to Americans but is widely believed among Iraqis — that the United States is supporting the Islamic State for a variety of pernicious reasons that have to do with asserting U.S. control over Iraq, the wider Middle East and, perhaps, its oil.

“It is not in doubt,” said Mustafa Saadi, who says his friend saw U.S. helicopters delivering bottled water to Islamic State positions. He is a commander in one of the Shiite militias that last month helped push the militants out of the oil refinery near Baiji in northern Iraq alongside the Iraqi army.

The Islamic State is “almost finished,” he said. “They are weak. If only America would stop supporting them, we could defeat them in days.”

U.S. military officials say the charges are too far-fetched to merit a response. “It’s beyond ridiculous,” said Col. Steve Warren, the military’s Baghdad-based spokesman. “There’s clearly no one in the West who buys it, but unfortunately, this is something that a segment of the Iraqi population believes.”

The perception among Iraqis that the United States is somehow in cahoots with the militants it claims to be fighting appears, however, to be widespread across the country’s Sunni-Shiite sectarian divide, and it speaks to more than just the troubling legacy of mistrust that has clouded the United States’ relationship with Iraq since the 2003 invasion and the subsequent withdrawal eight years later.

At a time when attacks by the Islamic State in Paris and elsewhere have intensified calls for tougher action on the ground, such is the level of suspicion with which the United States is viewed in Iraq that it is unclear whether the Obama administration would be able to significantly escalate its involvement even if it wanted to.

“What influence can we have if they think we are supporting the terrorists?” asked Kirk Sowell, an analyst based in neighboring Jordan who publishes the newsletter Inside Iraqi Politics.

In one example of how little leverage the United States now has, Iraqi Prime Minister Haidar al-Abadi pushed back swiftly against an announcement Tuesday by Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter that an expeditionary force of U.S. troops will be dispatched to Iraq to conduct raids, free hostages and capture Islamic State leaders.

...

“There is no need for foreign ground combat troops,” he said in a statement. “Any such support and special operations anywhere in Iraq can only be deployed subject to the approval of the Iraqi Government and in coordination with the Iraqi forces and with full respect to Iraqi sovereignty.”
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Isgrimnur »

People are prone to believe stupid things the world over.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Max Peck »

Isgrimnur wrote:People are prone to believe stupid things the world over.
On the one hand, the statement "roughly half of the population is of below-average intelligence" is an obvious truism. On the other hand, it explains a lot.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Isgrimnur wrote:People are prone to believe stupid things the world over.
Perhaps so, but such widespread beliefs stymie what little influence the US has left in that region. When the SecDef proudly proclaims the deployment of additional special ops forces to put more pressure on ISIS in Iraq, only to be summarily rebuffed by the Prime Minister of the sovereign state we're supposedly defending, it obviously does not bode well for our ongoing efforts in that part of the world.
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Re: Post-Withdrawal Iraq

Post by Isgrimnur »

Mosul Dam
Iraq’s Mosul Dam lies just outside Islamic State territory fewer than 50 miles from the Syrian border. If the dam fails, hundreds of thousands of people could die or lose their homes in flash floods along the length of the Tigris River.

In the face of this potential disaster, the U.S. State Department is hoping to keep the American embassy in Baghdad dry — at least for a short while.
...
On March 28, the State Department announced it was hiring MosCamp, Inc. to set up the company’s Aqua Dams around the embassy compound and at a separate site at the Iraqi capital’s international airport. Filled with water, these devices can keep out flood waters up to 10 feet high.
...
If the Mosul Dam collapses, the barriers might buy diplomats time to escape the torrent of water. The State Department has its own air arm for evacuating personnel from danger zones.
...
In the department’s estimation, the water-filled bags could help the embassy get back in operation in “days and weeks versus months and years.”
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If the Mosul Dam gives way, that water would rush downstream, sweeping away smaller communities and inundating cities. In September 2006, the U.S. Army Corps of engineers estimated that the city of Mosul, some 30 miles southeast of the dam, would quickly end up submerged under 65 feet of water. And 300 miles farther down river, residents of Baghdad would see up to 12 feet of water in places.

“In terms of internal erosion potential of the foundation, Mosul Dam is the most dangerous dam in the world,” the Army engineers declared, according to a report by the U.S. government’s watchdog agency for Iraq’s reconstruction. “If a small problem [at] Mosul Dam occurs, failure is likely.”
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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