Man Bragged to Idaho Girl About Killings

[Kurth]

Man Bragged to Idaho Girl About Killings

COEUR D'ALENE, Idaho - Convicted sex offender Joseph Edward Duncan bragged to his 8-year-old captive during more than six weeks on the run, telling her how he used a shotgun and hammer to kill her family after staking out their home for days, court documents show.

Sorry for the multiple posts based on yahoo headlines, but the news is just crushing me this morning. I don't really recommend reading this article - what Duncan did to this family and these children is just beyond words.

Aside from the gut reaction I have to this (horror), it seriously makes me think about what the appropriate response is from society to an individual like Duncan. This guy had already spent more than a decade in prison for sexually assaulting a 14-year-old boy at gunpoint. Then . . .

Duncan was released on $15,000 bail earlier this year in Becker County, Minn., after being charged with molesting a 6-year-old boy. Police in Fargo, N.D., where Duncan lived, had been looking for him since he failed to check in with a probation agent there in May.

I'm NOT a death penalty advocate. I feel it's applied in a racially and socially biased manner in far too many cases. However, I'm at a loss with what to do with people like Duncan.

Let's just forget about rehabilitation. There's little argument that habitual sex offenders like this guy are not capable of being rehabilitated.

And the idea of releasing these people into society after a jail sentence and requiring them to register as a sex offender strikes me as wrong. We shouldn't be releasing people we don't think have at least a chance to become productive members of society, and publicizing that these people are sex offenders just about rules that possibility out. Yet we do it for our own protection because of the reason cited above - we have no faith that they can be rehabilitated. Forcing them to publicly register that they are a convicted sex offender also strikes me as being a cruel and unusual form of continuing punishment after they've served their sentence.

So what do we do with them? This seems like a recurring problem. How many times do we hear about the latest missing/murdered/raped child followed by a recitation of the perpetrator's long list of similar previous crimes and jail sentences. Something needs to be done that balances the interests of justice, fairness and safety. Any ideas?

-- Also, if anyone has statistics to show that this really isn't as much of a problem as the media makes it out to be, I'd be interested to see it. As a father of a toddler and an infant, stories like these scare the hell out of me. I imagine that these stories do get over-reported by the media, but I wonder to what extent.

[msduncan]

You are right. I shouldn't have read that.

[Octavious]

Ya I read that yesterday. Personally I think they should tie him up and rape him in the ass with a plunger daily for the rest of his life.

[Eightball]

Stunned. This guy deserves the ice pick in the eye treatment imho.

[Combustible Lemur]

I dunno, I am a proponent of the death penalty pretty much for these guys. I just don't see any reason why he should be allowed to live.

As a society we accept the killing of enemy soldiers in war, that is generally fought over money or power. Why can't we accept that murderers are not even close to the level of soldiers who are trying to fight for causes, and kill more people than most of our criminals.

I do beleive in the right to life, but damn. the only thing he deserves is torture and I DON'T beleive in that.

[Kasey Chang]

This is one of the few circumstances where torture is called for.

How about... the modern Chinese water torture? All that's required is a nice thick towel, and quite a bit of water.

[farley2k]

Ok, I can totally understand the call for the death penalty, but the whole "lets torture him crowd" I just cannot grasp.

What do you people want to sit around and brag to your children about how you tortured him? Yeah that is so much different than him bragging about it....

Or do you really think about the joy and satisfaction you would get from torturing him? How it would make you happy and satisfied.....sorry that if sick.

Torturing another human being is wrong (and so is torturing an animal for that matter) it is always wrong, it is never justified.

[Kurth]

Torturing another human being is wrong (and so is torturing an animal for that matter) it is always wrong, it is never justified.

Agreed.

[Kasey Chang]

It's about BALANCE, equitable punishment. You can't punish him enough (he has only one life if he gets the death penalty), so you'll just let him get off for the rest of his crimes?

Or do you have a BETTER punishment for him?

[WAW]

Anyone who wants should be allowed to stone this man. I honestly would kill him I think I could live with it. I think we were better off as humans when the community mended out punishment.

[CSL]

It's about BALANCE, equitable punishment. You can't punish him enough (he has only one life if he gets the death penalty), so you'll just let him get off for the rest of his crimes?

Or do you have a BETTER punishment for him?

I was under the impression that the whole "eye for an eye" system was out of style by now.

[Tareeq]

I was under the impression that the whole "eye for an eye" system was out of style by now.

Much like the man whose image you've taken as an avatar.

[Discalced]

I was under the impression that the whole "eye for an eye" system was out of style by now.

Much like the man whose image you've taken as an avatar.

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. Except for the guy who arbitrates the last pluck.

[Poleaxe]

crucifiction on the side of the highway

[VynlSol]

Is there anyone who thinks Duncan DIDN'T commit these horrendous crimes? Because unless there's some question as to his guilt, I say kill the mother fucker in whatever manner is most expedient. I say kill him because he has done things that I find abhorrent. Kill him because I don't want to think about him looking up at the same sky the rest of us do. I say kill him because he has given up his right to live.

It's not about making someone feel better, or deterring someone, or balancing out some imaginary karma scale. It's about Duncan not being fit to walk among society.

[Victoria Raverna]

This is one of the few circumstances where torture is called for.

How about... the modern Chinese water torture? All that's required is a nice thick towel, and quite a bit of water.

How about we just use the "Harry Potter Torture(tm)"? All that's required is a few Harry Potter books and a female torturer in uniform.

[Victoria Raverna]

Anyone who wants should be allowed to stone this man. I honestly would kill him I think I could live with it. I think we were better off as humans when the community mended out punishment.

Sound like one example of Sharia law punishment.

[defy_gravity]

It's about BALANCE, equitable punishment. You can't punish him enough (he has only one life if he gets the death penalty), so you'll just let him get off for the rest of his crimes?

Or do you have a BETTER punishment for him?

There is never balance. There is is no way he could ever "make up" for what he did and frankly I don't think society has any business or gains anything trying to get revenge for it. If anything it diminishes us.

What society should have an interest in, is ensuring he can't hurt anyone again. And that can either be accomplished just fine through lethal injection or (my preference) life without parole.

As soon as it becomes about "getting even" then we lower ourselves to their level.

[YellowKing]

This is one instance in which I'd rather just see him go to prison, have a few of the guards loudly exclaim what he's in there for, then find a convenient way to get him alone with a few other convicted killers who knows he's a child rapist/murderer. The guards take a "smoke break" for a half hour or so, and boom - problem solved.

[Fretmute]

This is one instance in which I'd rather just see him go to prison, have a few of the guards loudly exclaim what he's in there for, then find a convenient way to get him alone with a few other convicted killers who knows he's a child rapist/murderer. The guards take a "smoke break" for a half hour or so, and boom - problem solved.

I'm a terrible liberal . . . that's the first thing that popped into my head as well. I'm going to have to turn in my card.

[Bob]

It's not about making someone feel better, or deterring someone, or balancing out some imaginary karma scale. It's about Duncan not being fit to walk among society.

Exactly. Someone needs to simply shoot him in the head.

At times like these it makes me think that a dictatorship isn't always a bad form of government. (that being the ultimate end of the slipperly slope of allowing folks to make unilateral decisions in cases like this.)

[The Preacher]

As soon as it becomes about "getting even" then we lower ourselves to their level.

How would you define "justice"?

[defy_gravity]

As soon as it becomes about "getting even" then we lower ourselves to their level.

How would you define "justice"?

jus·tice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jsts)
n.
The quality of being just; fairness.

The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
Law. The administration and procedure of law.
Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason: The overcharged customer was angry, and with justice.
Abbr. J. Law.
A judge.
A justice of the peace.

[The Preacher]

"Equity"? That sounds a lot like getting even.

[defy_gravity]

"Equity"? That sounds a lot like getting even.

That is just the definition. I don't believe there is ever really "justice". Particularly over these kinds of things where this kind of harm has been done. You will never be "even" and you will never feel that somehow the wrong has been made up for. That you are now "even".

[Tareeq]

"Equity"? That sounds a lot like getting even.

That is just the definition. I don't believe there is ever really "justice". Particularly over these kinds of things where this kind of harm has been done. You will never be "even" and you will never feel that somehow the wrong has been made up for. That you are now "even".

Since you believe there is no justice, do you believe he should be punished at all?

If so, why, when justice is impossible? If you believe he should be punished for some social reason, such as to deter others, why not punish him by slowly skinning him alive on television, since that will have maximum deterrent effect, and will educate the public about what we do to child rapists? After all, if there is no justice, there will be no injustice in flaying the man.

If not, just say so...

[defy_gravity]

"Equity"? That sounds a lot like getting even.

That is just the definition. I don't believe there is ever really "justice". Particularly over these kinds of things where this kind of harm has been done. You will never be "even" and you will never feel that somehow the wrong has been made up for. That you are now "even".

Do you believe he should be punished at all?

Of course. Take him out of society so he can't harm anyone again. Lock him up, throw away the key.

I'm just trying to point out that stoning him to death, torturing him whatever to "get even" doesn't do society any good. If anything it just lowers us. Its astonishing ever time somethign like this happens the number of people out there saying, he should be tortured, or lethal injection is too good for him etc. Talk about blood-lust. What good does that kind of thing do to society?

[Tareeq]

Of course. Take him out of society so he can't harm anyone again. Lock him up, throw away the key.

I'm just trying to point out that stoning him to death, torturing him whatever to "get even" doesn't do society any good. If anything it just lowers us. Its astonishing ever time somethign like this happens the number of people out there saying, he should be tortured, or lethal injection is too good for him etc. Talk about blood-lust. What good does that kind of thing do to society?

See edit: I don't believe you really mean there is no justice. Justice would indeed involve torturing the man to death, as an eye for an eye is the definition of fairness.

In fairness to you, you obviously mean that despite the man's horrible crimes, we lower ourselves and degrade society by sinking to his level. Fortunately, lethal injection is painless after the initial pinprick.

[Mr. Sparkle]

If you believe he should be punished for some social reason, such as to deter others, why not punish him by slowly skinning him alive on television, since that will have maximum deterrent effect, and will educate the public about what we do to child rapists? After all, if there is no justice, there will be no injustice in flaying the man.

I believe the standard social reason is "violence begets violence".

What I think is amusing is that, generally, the people who want to publicly hang criminals on network TV are the same ones who think GTA turns kids into satanic serial killers. And vice versa, I suppose.

[Tareeq]

I believe the standard social reason is "violence begets violence".

Well then the standard social reason forgets that government is violence. The king has devolved into a bureaucratic republic, but stands ready to enforce every single law not with kindness, but with force.

"Fear will keep the local systems in line...Fear of this battle station."

What I think is amusing that, generally, the people who want to publicly hang criminals on network TV are the same ones who think GTA turns kids into satanic serial killers.

I suspect that the population that actually wishes to watch televised executions plays GTA, and beats the animated hooker to death after each blowjob. I suspect that the population that actually wishes to watch televised executions consists primarily of people like the man at issue in this thread.

It's a rhetorical device.

[Enough]

Fortunately, lethal injection is painless after the initial pinprick.

Is it?

Could you please rate the pain of your execution on a scale of 1 to 10?

[Tareeq]

Fortunately, lethal injection is painless after the initial pinprick.

Is it?

Could you please rate the pain of your execution on a scale of 1 to 10?

Well, you forget about it soon enough. Fibromyalgia is forever.

[Fretmute]

Fortunately, lethal injection is painless after the initial pinprick.

Is it?

Please pardon the minor derail, but if their contention is that the levels of anesthetic are too low to prevent pain, how is it that in every case the muscle relaxant dose has been sufficient to keep them from shouting about it? Perhaps the muscle relaxant is some sort of super drug that works 100% of the time, and the anesthetic is inherently flawed. Or perhaps they're trying to prove a point with questionable science.

[Enough]

Fortunately, lethal injection is painless after the initial pinprick.

Is it?

Please pardon the minor derail, but if their contention is that the levels of anesthetic are too low to prevent pain, how is it that in every case the muscle relaxant dose has been sufficient to keep them from shouting about it? Perhaps the muscle relaxant is some sort of super drug that works 100% of the time, and the anesthetic is inherently flawed. Or perhaps they're trying to prove a point with questionable science.

To make this derail short why don't you read The Lancet (vol 365, p 1412) and report back to us in another thread on your findings?

Ironically, US veterinarians are advised not to use neuromuscular blocking agents while euthanising animals precisely so they can recognise when the anaesthesia is not working.

[Ranulf]

This is one instance in which I'd rather just see him go to prison, have a few of the guards loudly exclaim what he's in there for, then find a convenient way to get him alone with a few other convicted killers who knows he's a child rapist/murderer. The guards take a "smoke break" for a half hour or so, and boom - problem solved.

Yes, lets help promote more prison rape in our culture.



Yeah, my gut says torture the guy, make him suffer but hell, waste of time. Bullet to the head, burn body, move on and try to make the best of life. Sometimes, you have to thin the herd.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Well then the standard social reason forgets that government is violence. The king has devolved into a bureaucratic republic, but stands ready to enforce every single law not with kindness, but with force.

That is an exceptionally broad brush right there... a parking ticket is violence?

But anyway... Man=violent... Government=Man... Government=violent... so sure... but just because there is inherent violence doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

I suspect that the population that actually wishes to watch televised executions plays GTA, and beats the animated hooker to death after each blowjob. I suspect that the population that actually wishes to watch televised executions consists primarily of people like the man at issue in this thread.

I suspect the reason you think that is because adolescent males have an outlet for violence that is imaginary, so that actual real violence can be seen as the distateful thing that it is. I imagine you know that public hangings were really quite popular with masses... good fun events for the entire family. What happened to all those bloodthisty savages?

[Tareeq]

That is an exceptionally broad brush right there... a parking ticket is violence?

But anyway... Man=violent... Government=Man... Government=violent... so sure... but just because there is inherent violence doesn't mean it should be encouraged.

If the government bothers to enforce parking tickets at all, force is the ultimate arbiter. Don't pay your parking ticket. If the fines mount enough, you will receive a summons to come to court. Don't come to court.

What happens the next time you're stopped for a speeding ticket and you hand the officer your license?

I suspect the reason you think that is because adolescent males have an outlet for violence that is imaginary, so that actual real violence can be seen as the distateful thing that it is. I imagine you know that public hangings were really quite popular with masses... good fun events for the entire family. What happened to all those bloodthisty savages?

Look in the mirror. Why were you dumping on people who have a religious objection to the violence in videogames? Why weren't you dumping on child psychologists who've made an industry of studying this sort of thing on government grants?

If I didn't know you better, I'd suspect anti-Christian bigotry.

[Mr. Sparkle]

If I didn't know you better, I'd suspect anti-Christian bigotry.

I never mentioned religion or Christianity... why would you assume that's who I'm taking about? If I didn't know you better I'd suspect...

I think you're going to have to draw me a map though... I can't really figure out whether you want me to literally address your points, or if you are in finger-pointing-at-the-moon mode... sometimes your too slippery for me.

EDIT: Crap I just realized I used the word "satanic"... curses! Second thing still stands...

[The Mad Hatter]

Does the guy deserve death? Probably. Should the government have the power to put him to death? Absolutely not. Given that, life in prison is the best option available.

[Tareeq]

Should the government have the power to put him to death? Absolutely not.

Why?