Well, that was f-ing crazy.

[RunningMn9]

So, many moons ago, I decided to get a gun. Being a citizen of NJ, that can be a long, drawn out affair, so I figured I would start the process finally, back in November. At the time, my thinking was that I’ve enjoyed going to the range when I’ve done it, so it would give me something to do. And if I ever found myself in a situation where I needed a gun in my house, I’d be covered. If I never find myself in that situation, excelsior! I can still have fun at the range.

So I apply for an FID, and a handgun purchase permit (shockingly, they only charge $7 for all that). That process went pretty quick, and I got the FID and permit back in November. In December I started shopping and discovered that every gun dealer is out of guns. So I gave up, and the permit was set to expire on Jan 30. Much to my surprise, the local PD automatically extended that to May, and so I started looking online.

I finally found what I was looking for, in stock (Sig P320 X Full), so I ordered it to have it shipped to the local dealer. I needed to stop by today, just to make sure that the dealer is willing to pin the mags as they are 17-round magazines which are illegal here (need to get them pinned to 10-round capacity).

So I’m waiting there to talk to the guy and this old man comes in and gets on line behind me. I figure 65-70, that age range. I notice that he’s really carefully examining the couple in front of me, whose looking for their first gun, and the wife is unimpressed with their offerings. She constantly wants something bigger. More power to you lady.

So eventually this guy starts asking me questions because I “seem knowledgeable”. I’m not, and I make it clear that I’m not, and that I’m still in the process of buying my first gun.

But he still wants advice. All of his friends and family are buying and they are buying 9mm’s and .38’s. He wants me to recommend a gun for him that has good stopping power at 10 ft.

I again make it clear that I’m really just looking for a first gun to get comfortable with at the range, and wasn’t looking to shop based on stopping power.

He then starts telling me that he has to do something with that lunatic that was in the White House and all the stuff going on. And I’m thinking that this guy really got spooked by the Capitol riots and the crazy Trump supporters that still think that Trump won.

Then he hits me with “I don’t know about you, but I’m very political and I follow all the things. And now we have this lunatic in the White House. He’s evil, they’re all evil. Do you know about the New World Order? It’s everywhere. And the antifa. They’re everywhere and they don’t care about you. This summer, they had BLM rallies...RIGHT HERE!!.”

I know about the rallies, because my kids went to them. I legitimately had no idea what to say or do. This old mad is just sitting there on a stool with his bad back, terrified that antifa and Evil Joe Biden are coming for him.

[Jaymann]

Should have asked him about Neanderthals and Dr. Seuss.

[Holman]

And you missed a chance to sign him up for OO?? We are sorely in need of balance here.

[stimpy]

And you missed a chance to sign him up for OO?? We are sorely in need of balance here.

Aint THAT the truth......

[Zarathud]

Insert meme:

YOU WERE THE CHISEN ONE!

[hepcat]

You know, we do need balance. Who here is willing to follow QAnon and join the Proud Boys so they can give us an alternative opinion on things? I would do it, but I’m already so busy with my Elder Gods Are Coming group.

[Daehawk]

Im afraid they may want to come over for tea and crumpets.

[Blackhawk]

Balance =/= conspiracy theories, alternative facts, hatred, or lack of empathy, even if those qualities seem to be embraced by the other side. That stuff doesn't need to be in balance, it needs to be exorcised.

We need balance in the form of reason and rational conservatism, not in the form of the party line.

[Carpet_pissr]

Re: hepcat- I could invite the neighbor behind me. Still has his Qanon flag flying proudly.

Or should we not make assumptions about someone’s character based on that? I’m confused these days.

[gbasden]

You know, we do need balance. Who here is willing to follow QAnon and join the Proud Boys so they can give us an alternative opinion on things? I would do it, but I’m already so busy with my Elder Gods Are Coming group.

I'm not sure we have anyone with the requisite level of brain damage.

[hepcat]

Re: hepcat- I could invite the neighbor behind me. Still has his Qanon flag flying proudly.

Or should we not make assumptions about someone’s character based on that? I’m confused these days.

All the answers you seek lie in the basement of a pizza parlor.

[YellowKing]

This is just a random side story, but yesterday we were sitting in a parking lost facing the traffic stopped at a stoplight, and there was this youngish looking kid dancing in his car like crazy. My wife laughed and said, "That guy's really getting down." Then we see that in one hand he has a pistol he's waving around. For a moment there I thought we were about to see this guy start shooting people, because his behavior was so erratic.

Obviously in NC you can carry a gun in your car. I wonder what the laws are about taking it out and waving it around in traffic.

[LawBeefaroni]

Obviously in NC you can carry a gun in your car. I wonder what the laws are about taking it out and waving it around in traffic.

That's brandishing and it's illegal most everywhere. Including NC:

It is also illegal to display or brandish a gun in a manner that either causes or can reasonably be expected to cause fear or panic. This crime is a misdemeanor in North Carolina called “Going Armed to the Terror of the People.”

Source.

[LawBeefaroni]

So, many moons ago, I decided to get a gun. Being a citizen of NJ, that can be a long, drawn out affair, so I figured I would start the process finally, back in November. At the time, my thinking was that I’ve enjoyed going to the range when I’ve done it, so it would give me something to do. And if I ever found myself in a situation where I needed a gun in my house, I’d be covered. If I never find myself in that situation, excelsior! I can still have fun at the range.

Godspeed. As a resident of Cook County, known for its oppressive gun laws (yet somehow a glut of shootings), even we look in fear at NJs insane restrictions.

Good luck finding ammo at a reasonable price. A box of 50 9mm range rounds used to be $12 without much searching. Now I'm lucky to get it for $30 in bulk. As someone who shoots 200+ rounds of 9mm a week it's getting stupid.

I finally found what I was looking for, in stock (Sig P320 X Full), so I ordered it to have it shipped to the local dealer. I needed to stop by today, just to make sure that the dealer is willing to pin the mags as they are 17-round magazines which are illegal here (need to get them pinned to 10-round capacity).

I bought a P320C RX. Unfortunately the waiting period was right when they had the drop fire controversy and the big-box retailer yanked all 320s, including mine. I ended up going in another direction but I still like the P320.

So eventually this guy starts asking me questions because I “seem knowledgeable”. I’m not, and I make it clear that I’m not, and that I’m still in the process of buying my first gun.

Gun shop conversations can get weird. But wait until you take your first combat or CC class.

Then he hits me with “I don’t know about you, but I’m very political and I follow all the things. And now we have this lunatic in the White House. He’s evil, they’re all evil. Do you know about the New World Order? It’s everywhere. And the antifa. They’re everywhere and they don’t care about you. This summer, they had BLM rallies...RIGHT HERE!!.”

I know about the rallies, because my kids went to them. I legitimately had no idea what to say or do. This old mad is just sitting there on a stool with his bad back, terrified that antifa and Evil Joe Biden are coming for him.

Aaaand, SWBI just announced another doubling in sales for last Q.

Smith & Wesson Brands (NASDAQ:SWBI) reported sales doubled during its fiscal third quarter, the third consecutive month where sales were up by more than 100%.

[malchior]

So, many moons ago, I decided to get a gun. Being a citizen of NJ, that can be a long, drawn out affair, so I figured I would start the process finally, back in November. At the time, my thinking was that I’ve enjoyed going to the range when I’ve done it, so it would give me something to do. And if I ever found myself in a situation where I needed a gun in my house, I’d be covered. If I never find myself in that situation, excelsior! I can still have fun at the range.

I don't know why it'd be fear. One of the few things NJ has going for it is the very low rate of gun deaths by all means compared to the rest of the US. It isn't impossible to get a gun but it is difficult. I'm not personally a fan of the one license per handgun process, clip size stupidity, and blatantly corrupt concealed carry restrictions but it isn't going to change - well maybe with this SCOTUS the last might change. But it helps when you have a regional different approach to gun ownership overall, NJ has the benefit of living in an ecosystem with generally more restrictive gun laws. The illegal gun trade is a trickle as it ships up from the south by highway versus from every direction but east like Cook County.

[El Guapo]

That's brandishing and it's illegal most everywhere. Including NC:

It is also illegal to display or brandish a gun in a manner that either causes or can reasonably be expected to cause fear or panic. This crime is a misdemeanor in North Carolina called “Going Armed to the Terror of the People.”

Source.

That's a hell of a name for a law. Are other NC laws named by frustrated poets?

[malchior]

That's brandishing and it's illegal most everywhere. Including NC:

It is also illegal to display or brandish a gun in a manner that either causes or can reasonably be expected to cause fear or panic. This crime is a misdemeanor in North Carolina called “Going Armed to the Terror of the People.”

Source.

That's a hell of a name for a law. Are other NC laws named by frustrated poets?

It also feels like it should alternatively be called, the "Open Carry While Black is Scary" law.

[Jaymann]

And of course there is always the "Follow the Road More Traveled" law.

[Carpet_pissr]

Pretty sure it's a Rage Against the Machine song, in addition to being a weirdly named law.

[LawBeefaroni]

I don't know why it'd be fear.
[/quote]

If NJ gun laws were suddenly enacted here, I'd suddenly be at risk for confiscation or multiple misdemeanors and felonies. I'd also probably have to bribe my way to a may issue permit. It's not fear of safety but fear of regulation and denial of rights/privileges.

But that's for another thread.

[malchior]

If NJ gun laws were suddenly enacted here, I'd suddenly be at risk for confiscation or multiple misdemeanors and felonies. I'd also probably have to bribe my way to a may issue permit. It's not fear of safety but fear of regulation and denial of rights/privileges.

But that's for another thread.

I guess but that scenario is completely not realistic either. Complete with the hyperbole about bribes. Any discussion about actual gun policy (that works) turns irrational pretty quick. Which is why I think it is quite on topic.

Edit: It was why I dug in a little because in my estimation his experience is an anecdote but it isn't atypical to encounters I've had. Not that extreme but I've had similar interactions before at gun ranges. Especially out in Eastern PA. And it aligns to pervasive gun culture issues that this country refuses to deal with in any sort of rational manner.

[LawBeefaroni]

If NJ gun laws were suddenly enacted here, I'd suddenly be at risk for confiscation or multiple misdemeanors and felonies. I'd also probably have to bribe my way to a may issue permit. It's not fear of safety but fear of regulation and denial of rights/privileges.

But that's for another thread.

I guess but that scenario is completely not realistic either. Complete with the hyperbole about bribes. Any discussion about actual gun policy (that works) turns irrational pretty quick. Which is why I think it is quite on topic.

Hyperbole? It happens in NYC. And California.

[malchior]

If NJ gun laws were suddenly enacted here, I'd suddenly be at risk for confiscation or multiple misdemeanors and felonies. I'd also probably have to bribe my way to a may issue permit. It's not fear of safety but fear of regulation and denial of rights/privileges.

But that's for another thread.

I guess but that scenario is completely not realistic either. Complete with the hyperbole about bribes. Any discussion about actual gun policy (that works) turns irrational pretty quick. Which is why I think it is quite on topic.

Hyperbole? It happens in NYC. And California.

I said blatantly corrupt. I meant that you'd actually take money out of your pocket and bribe someone versus compliance is hyperbole. IMO it also is edge-case stuff that is used to justify anti-restrictive policy.

[LawBeefaroni]

If NJ gun laws were suddenly enacted here, I'd suddenly be at risk for confiscation or multiple misdemeanors and felonies. I'd also probably have to bribe my way to a may issue permit. It's not fear of safety but fear of regulation and denial of rights/privileges.

But that's for another thread.

I guess but that scenario is completely not realistic either. Complete with the hyperbole about bribes. Any discussion about actual gun policy (that works) turns irrational pretty quick. Which is why I think it is quite on topic.

Hyperbole? It happens in NYC. And California.

I said blatantly corrupt. I meant that you'd actually take money out of your pocket and bribe someone versus compliance is hyperbole. IMO it also is edge-case stuff that is used to justify anti-restrictive policy.

"I'd probably have to bribe my way to a may issue pemit" isn't hyperbole. It's likely what I would have to do if I wanted to carry.
Just like here before McDonald and like most places currently with may-issue. May-issue is undeniably used to garner clout or bribes.

I had to pay several hundred just to do it legally in a shall-issue justification. Yet it's hyperbole to expect to pay at least that much in bribes under may-issue in the most corrupt city in the nation? That seems intentionally naive.

[RunningMn9]

Godspeed. As a resident of Cook County, known for its oppressive gun laws (yet somehow a glut of shootings), even we look in fear at NJs insane restrictions.

Good luck finding ammo at a reasonable price. A box of 50 9mm range rounds used to be $12 without much searching. Now I'm lucky to get it for $30 in bulk. As someone who shoots 200+ rounds of 9mm a week it's getting stupid.

The process wasn’t too crazy. Apply online with the State Police, submit references, get finger printed, and then let the local PD clear you. It cost $7 for the FID and handgun permit, and like $50 for the finger printing. They were having a real problem last summer but by the time I went through it, the local PD approved me in just a couple of days. It’s possible that being a white registered Republican in NW Jersey sped that up.

They delay was in finding a dealer with guns in stock that I was interested, and in the end I had to give that up and find something online at a place willing to ship to NJ.

My next quest will be getting ammo.

I bought a P320C RX. Unfortunately the waiting period was right when they had the drop fire controversy and the big-box retailer yanked all 320s, including mine. I ended up going in another direction but I still like the P320.

My basic requirements for the first gun (I’ve been told there’s no such thing as your “only” gun) where a 9mm that is easy to clean and operate, but that fits in my gorilla hands. The P320 seemed to check all of those boxes.

I know a bunch of people that have shot it and they were all in agreement that it’s a good option for a first gun.

[malchior]

"I'd probably have to bribe my way to a may issue pemit" isn't hyperbole. It's likely what I would have to do if I wanted to carry. Just like here before McDonald and like most places currently with may-issue. May-issue is undeniably used to garner clout or bribes.

This is the part where I think this devolves into irrationality IMO. Some bribery is there. There is also favoritism where cops and politicians sail through the carry permits. That doesn't mean the policy is de facto wrong but like I said I don't mind not worrying about needing a gun and the nation's lowest suicide rate. And I don't even 100% agree with it! I just believe there is evidence of a positive trade off that has been realized.

I had to pay several hundred just to do it legally in a shall-issue justification. Yet it's hyperbole to expect to pay at least that much in bribes under may-issue in the most corrupt city in the nation? That seems intentionally naive.

That's the thing. I figured it was hyperbole because it departs from the 'lawful gun owner' narrative. I don't think "naivety" has anything to do with it. I'm just surprised to see someone say out loud that they be willing to commit a crime because some authority might be corrupt. And I think this probably reflects what a lot of people would do but I still think that this all aligns perfectly with the OP.

[RunningMn9]

Maybe I’m misreading LawBeef’s use of the term bribe, but I didn’t think he was actually referring to a criminal bribe, but rather the rules change as a way to extract money from existing gun owners (calling them bribes).

I can’t speak to the NJ process compared to freedom places like PA where they include a free hand gun with your deli sandwich, but the process and restrictions here don’t mean much to me.

I don’t feel the need to carry, I don’t feel the need for higher capacity magazines. I wouldn’t mind having access to more than 10 rounds in the clip, but I can exist with only 10 rounds in the clip.

Things are relatively easier on the long gun front as I can buy one per month now, without needing any extra permits or anything. But guns ain’t cheap, so it’s not like I am going to be buying a ton of guns anyway.

I imagine I’d have a different opinion if I was used to less restrictions, and then had them all change on me though.

[malchior]

Maybe I’m misreading LawBeef’s use of the term bribe, but I didn’t think he was actually referring to a criminal bribe, but rather the rules change as a way to extract money from existing gun owners (calling them bribes).

He linked to multiple articles of criminal bribes which is how I took it.

I can’t speak to the NJ process compared to freedom places like PA where they include a free hand gun with your deli sandwich, but the process and restrictions here don’t mean much to me.

NJ's is corrupt - maybe not as heavily in the bribery sense but in the only connected people get it. Essentially the local PD has to approve your 'justified need' and then a *judge* has to review it and agree to it's 'justified need'. Unsurprisingly the only people who get them here are armed security guards, politicians, judges, and cops. The low-born aka ordinary citizens almost never get one.

I don’t feel the need to carry, I don’t feel the need for higher capacity magazines. I wouldn’t mind having access to more than 10 rounds in the clip, but I can exist with only 10 rounds in the clip.

Things are relatively easier on the long gun front as I can buy one per month now, without needing any extra permits or anything. But guns ain’t cheap, so it’s not like I am going to be buying a ton of guns anyway.

These are the whatever side for me even though the clip size thing has nothing but feelings behind it. My step brother still has a mini long rifle arsenal even though he had to buy it slowly.

[Little Raven]

He linked to multiple articles of criminal bribes which is how I took it.

Yes but in those articles "Lawbeef" doesn't break the law. Notice who's actually getting charged.

The way it works is this: Lawbeef hooks up with an "expediter," who has a proven track record of getting permits through. He pays the expediter a fee, and the expediter begins lobbying the system on behalf of his client. He almost certainly does NOT tell Lawbeef that he's planning on bribing anyone - that would be insanely stupid. He just tells Lawbeef that he knows which forms to file and where to deposit them to get the right results fast. Legally, Lawbeef is in the clear.

If you notice, none of the people who actually GOT (or wanted, in the California case) the guns are being charged, because they didn't do anything illegal. Always go through a middle man.

[RunningMn9]

NJ's is corrupt - maybe not as heavily in the bribery sense but in the only connected people get it. Essentially the local PD has to approve your 'justified need' and then a *judge* has to review it and agree to it's 'justified need'. Unsurprisingly the only people who get them here are armed security guards, politicians, judges, and cops. The low-born aka ordinary citizens almost never get one.

Right, but that’s just for the carry permit, and everyone is clear in advance - you aren’t getting it unless you can demonstrate imminent danger. It’s less “corrupt” than it is “you ain’t getting it, don’t bother trying.”

[malchior]

NJ's is corrupt - maybe not as heavily in the bribery sense but in the only connected people get it. Essentially the local PD has to approve your 'justified need' and then a *judge* has to review it and agree to it's 'justified need'. Unsurprisingly the only people who get them here are armed security guards, politicians, judges, and cops. The low-born aka ordinary citizens almost never get one.

Right, but that’s just for the carry permit, and everyone is clear in advance - you aren’t getting it unless you can demonstrate imminent danger. It’s less “corrupt” than it is “you ain’t getting it, don’t bother trying.”[/quote']

I can see that but my definition of corruption includes abuse of an authority. When the political class has a different set of rules from the people who employ them that is corruption or injustice. FWIW the standard isn't imminent danger, it is risk of 'serious bodily harm' but it might as well be as you said, 'don't bother' and I'll add, 'unless you are an elected official, judge, or police officer'. And I don't mind that they can, my problem is they almost exclusively are the only ones allowed to.

The real issue is 'serious bodily harm' standard is not very consistent. There have been several cases litigated where even documented death threats weren't enough to show a risk of serious bodily harm. I actually expect one of these days that it'll be ruled unconstitutional based on statistical evidence about who is and isn't approved for a CCW.

[RunningMn9]

Right, they are up front about it, and given how difficult it is, corruption isn’t the word I would choose.

Regardless, your hyper-focus on carry permits may or may not have had anything to do with LawBeef’s thoughts on NJ gun laws (I interpreted his comment to generally refer to the restrictive nature of NJ gun laws as a whole, not necessarily particular to carrying).

[malchior]

Right, they are up front about it, and given how difficult it is, corruption isn’t the word I would choose.

It all depends on what you call corrupt. We seem to disagree on that but I disagree it is upfront. They aren't very transparent about what does and doesn't get through the process. I'm only aware about because I've had discussions with people in the know and know someone who was in a very bad spot who was denied. They were essentially told they need to avoid the person, change their routine, take precautions on their own, or hire someone to protect them. Meanwhile, a police dispatcher will get theirs approved with barely a question. But I guess that is our lot as lowly common citizens. I should not question these things.

Regardless, your hyper-focus on carry permits may or may not have had anything to do with LawBeef’s thoughts on NJ gun laws (I interpreted his comment to generally refer to the restrictive nature of NJ gun laws as a whole, not necessarily particular to carrying).

My hyperfocus? That's certainly an interesting comment since I mentioned it in a list of several things and that was what was latched on to discuss. I didn't call any special attention to it.

[malchior]

He linked to multiple articles of criminal bribes which is how I took it.

Yes but in those articles "Lawbeef" doesn't break the law. Notice who's actually getting charged.

The way it works is this: Lawbeef hooks up with an "expediter," who has a proven track record of getting permits through. He pays the expediter a fee, and the expediter begins lobbying the system on behalf of his client. He almost certainly does NOT tell Lawbeef that he's planning on bribing anyone - that would be insanely stupid. He just tells Lawbeef that he knows which forms to file and where to deposit them to get the right results fast. Legally, Lawbeef is in the clear.

If you notice, none of the people who actually GOT (or wanted, in the California case) the guns are being charged, because they didn't do anything illegal. Always go through a middle man.

You might want to go re-read the California piece again.

[Little Raven]

You might want to go re-read the California piece again.

?

A California grand jury has indicted Apple's head of global security on charges that he attempted to obtain firearm (CCW) licenses from Santa Clara County officials by agreeing to bribe them with iPads.

This news was announced via a press release issued by the Santa Clara County's District Attorney's office. It is alleged that Thomas Moyer agreed to trade 200 iPads (with a value of around $70,000) for four concealed firearms licenses for Apple employees. That deal was allegedly agreed to after Capt. James Jensen and Undersheriff Rick Sung of the local sheriff's office requested a bribe for the permits.

Which of the 4 Apple employees for whom he was seeking licenses for were charged?

[RunningMn9]

I used the word hyper-focus because I said that the process in general in NJ is pretty simple overall and that the restrictions are endurable, and your answer was that the process was corrupt because only politically connected people are approved by the system.

Since I wasn’t talking about the process to get a carry permit, and I don’t think that LawBeef was specifically talking about the process to get a carry permit, I wasn’t sure why your response to me not talking about carry permits only dealt with what’s wrong with the process to get carry permits here. If I misunderstood that as hyper-focus, my bad. Carry on.

[Smoove_B]

I was actually kinda surprised at how quick the turnaround was in NJ to get a FID. I was unofficially told 3-6 months. Instead, it took 30 days. I don't have any desire to have a carry permit, so that's immaterial. However, anecdotally I've been told it's impossible except for the chosen few (as malchior has indicated), because reasons.

Either way, as someone the lives on the fringe of the scary corner of NJ, the idea that the overwhelming majority of the whackos in my area are likely armed and crazy isn't comforting.

[Holman]

This thread makes me consider buying a gun. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

I've been hunting, I've been to gun ranges, and I've shot up targets with my buddy's extensive collection of WW2 and Cold War iron way out in the country where nobody cared. I know shooting is tons of fun.

But if I buy a gun, it's because I've decided that I need personal defense in my home. That's a depressing prospect. I actually feel quite safe in my neighborhood, so arming myself with deadly force means rejecting or betting against that.

But even more depressing is that the most common victim of a family-owned gun is a family member, whether through domestic violence, suicide, or accident.

I believe I can rule out domestic violence because I have a stable family life, but the others? I'm prone to depression, as is my wife and one of my sons. None of us have ever attempted suicide, but I know I've had dark periods when I considered considering it. A gun in the house (no matter how well secured) greatly raises the risk of a bad hour or a bad day becoming The End of Everything for someone.

Just a thought. I'd kind of like to know I could hit the range for pleasure, but I'm worried that there's more to it than that.

[malchior]

You might want to go re-read the California piece again.

?

A California grand jury has indicted Apple's head of global security on charges that he attempted to obtain firearm (CCW) licenses from Santa Clara County officials by agreeing to bribe them with iPads.

This news was announced via a press release issued by the Santa Clara County's District Attorney's office. It is alleged that Thomas Moyer agreed to trade 200 iPads (with a value of around $70,000) for four concealed firearms licenses for Apple employees. That deal was allegedly agreed to after Capt. James Jensen and Undersheriff Rick Sung of the local sheriff's office requested a bribe for the permits.

Which of the 4 Apple employees for whom he was seeking licenses for were charged?

Are you actually suggesting that Apple's Chief Security Officer was acting as an 'expediter' for 4 Apple employees? Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume it was tied to his official duties since he is in charge of Apple's physical security measures?

[Little Raven]

Are you actually suggesting that Apple's Chief Security Officer was acting as an 'expediter' for 4 Apple employees?

Well, yeah. That's exactly what he was doing. Whether it was part of his "official duties" or not is immaterial - he was attempting to illegally work the system on the behalf of others. Which is super bad for him, but the employees that he attempted to get permits for (the Lawbeef, in our hypothetical scenario) have done nothing wrong, which is presumably why they aren't being indicted.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing with each other on anything but technicalities here - you seem to agree that may-issue laws invite abuse - it doesn't seem like too much more of a stretch to imagine that people who go about abusing the system do so in ways that limit their liability.